An Alternate Heresy

[Commissar Molotov]

This spawned in a thread from June where Darrell and I got caught up in discussing an 'alternate heresy'. It's something that crops up now and then - we all have our ideas about what could have been. I certainly don't claim ours is the definitive version!

 

My idea is to write up an 'Alternate Heresy' scenario. I've started discussion in this thread, but I've come to realise that it would be easier to manage if it formed its own topic. If you look at this Lexicanum article, I imagine something like that - obviously in greater detail, and hoping to show all the Legions.

 

Most importantly I also want to look at the year 999.M41 in this alternate universe. It's one thing to look at an alternate heresy, but it's important to look at the long-reaching aftereffects!

 

I do have to confess that I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, so if you have and you've got good ideas to contribute, please feel free!

 

Here's what I have thus far regarding the Legions:

 

 

LEGIO I (DARK ANGELS):

Luther of the Dark Angels takes the role played by Garro and the Eisenstein in our universe.

 

LEGIO III (EMPEROR'S CHILDREN):

Reached perfection during the Great Crusade? Refuses to adopt new weapons? (Assault Cannon, Razorback...) Refuses to adopt new tactics.

 

LEGIO IV (IRON WARRIORS):

Perturabo brooded as the defences of the Imperial Palace were put under their greatest test - Rogal Dorn's hellcannon.

 

LEGIO V (WHITE SCARS):

Before becoming Great Khan, Jaghatai hunted down the tribe that was responsible for killing his father and murdered them all. He butchered men, women and children until no enemy was left alive in the village. Then, the Primarch bathed in their blood. If that's not Khornate, I don't know what is. The Red Highway Massacre. There are no details about what exactly that battle was about, as it's only mentioned by name in the White Scars IA. However, I can easily see that referring to a massive slaughter of innocents and loyalist forces as the Khan's final step into the abyss. White armor slick with blood, scarred faces screaming battle cries as they run down the fleeing survivors, blood running slick down a road populated by corpses and burning metal hulks. It's a scene of pure, tribal, feral, barbarian slaughter striking out against the foundations of civilized society that has been played out since man first settled into cities.

 

LEGIO VI (SPACE WOLVES):

• Space Wolves -> Khorne Berserkers
  
• Flesh-Hounds rather than Fenrisian Wolves.
  
• Leman Russ atop a Juggernaut of Khorne, wielding the Axe of Morkai - taken from a slain Khorne Champion.
  
• Perhaps Bjorn the Fell-Handed is their version of Khârn the Betrayer...? The most youthful of Leman Russ's Wolfguard, he becomes enraged, obsessed with proving his worth to his masters. He shatters the Legion into disparate 'Wolf Packs'.
  
• The Emperor's punch against Leman Russ during their first meeting has left a deep wound in the primarch's pride that never healed. Since the Heresy, the Space Wolves have fought ferociously to tear down the reign of the False Emperor. At the forefront of some of the bloodiest battles of the last ten thousand years, their name has become a byword for muderous destruction on a chilling scale. The Space Wolves are organised into wolf-packs, and these bands of warriors compete keenly for glory on the battlefield and the attention of their patrons - the Blood-God Khorne and his favoured servant, Leman Russ. The Space Wolves were created to fight, and death holds no fear for them; they know their blood is as welcome to Khorne as that of their foes.
  

 

LEGIO VII (IMPERIAL FISTS):

Slaneeshi Bombardiers

Many heavy weapons, an emphasis on siegebreaking.

The use of the painglove and other rituals to heighten their senses. They desire perfection, and fall to Slaneesh.

Deafened by their perverted Hellcannons, they seek sensation, they enjoy inflicting pain. As they break the enemy's fortifications, so they break their spirits, storming the breaches in the defences to break their bodies.

Guilliman managed to manipulate Dorn, and Dorn's the one that led the assault on Terra. The climactic battle happened aboard the Phalanx, instead of Horus's battle-barge. When it all fell through, Guilliman was able to return to Ultramar and hold it secure.

 

LEGIO VIII (NIGHT LORDS):

Gangs of criminals proving their inner nobility as true defenders of the Imperium. The Night Haunter, the terror of traitors, causing terrible difficulties for the traitors as they attack and then fade into the darkness.

 

LEGIO IX (BLOOD ANGELS):

Sanguinius, the 'Angel of Blood' -> Daemon Prince.

However much he kills, he stays pristine, with a beauty that is both unholy and terrifying.

 

LEGIO X (IRON HANDS):

"The Flesh is Weak" - They become one with their machines. The entire legion is infected with the techno-virus. Tzeentch grants them freedom from fleshy mortality, but curses them utterly. Heavy use of daemon-engines.

 

LEGIO XII (WORLD EATERS):

Angron realizes after years of anguished discontent that his father was correct in counseling him against the battle during his formative years, though he still mourns the loss of the band that he raised against the oppressive nobles. The change in attitude is not total and the lingering damage from the surgery forced on him by slavers in his youth still colors his thinking, but the Primarch turns his almost uncontrollable rage into a doctrine of ferocious surgical strikes that make use of the incredible strength and fleetness of his shock troops. The cool and calculating influence of his personal adjutant, Khârn, earns the latter the sobriquet of The Redeemer for his role in pulling the Primarch back from his bloodlust and helping him to see the righteousness of the God-Emperor's cause. The pair rally the support of the World Eaters and abandon the early experiments with duplicating the effects that surgery had upon Angron, committing their forces to strike-and-fade assaults all along the border of Ultramar in order to tie up the massive resources that Guilliman can bring to bear if allowed to his own means.

 

LEGIO XIII (ULTRAMARINES):

His father shunned his military prowess by making Horus the Warmaster; what better way to show that was a mistake than to storm the Emperor's Palace yourself? Also, consider that Macragge is an empire within an empire and it's possible that Guilliman tasted the power of ruling entire worlds and decided he wanted more. The shining beacon of hope and prosperity that was Macragge turns into a desolate wasteland, decimated by Guilliman's greed and ambition. Suddenly there's a system of daemon worlds on the Imperium's back step. How different would the Imperium be if the Codex Astartes had never been written, or composed by another hand? Much like (our) Black Legion is now split into smaller warbands, you could imagine the various Lieutenants and Warlords of the Ultramarines being divided into 'Chapters', each of which has its own realm, shaped to their own tastes. They have a mighty Empire in real-space, which the Imperium can only contain... traitor Marines (ala Red Corsairs) flee the loyalist Legions to join the service of the Ultramarines - their only price that they kneel and accept Roboute as their Warmaster. Roboute would have written the Codex even if he had gone traitor. However, the nature of the tome would have been quite different. There'd be military doctrine but you would probably see twisted variations like a treatise on the various types of daemons, how they can be summoned and tactics regarding their use. The Codex Chaotica or something similar, a blasphemous tone of military intelligence and endless taint inscribed by the most unholy means.

 

LEGIO XIV (DEATH GUARD):

The most solid and reliable Legion.

 

LEGIO XV (THOUSAND SONS):

 

 

LEGIO XVI (SONS OF HORUS):

Abaddon was selected as "The Emperor's Champion" during the Horus Heresy and fought to defend Terra. In the wake of Horus's death during the Heresy, Abaddon is maddened by grief and changes the Legion's armour to black, calling them "The Black Guard". (Mournival members create successor Chapters?)

 

LEGIO XVII (WORD BEARERS):

Defenders of the Faith

Condemned and ridiculed for their beliefs during the Great Crusade, with the 'death' of the Emperor they stand ready to point to his divinity. They were in a position to nurse the fledgling Ecclesiarchy and first signs of open Emperor worship. Once their Legion was split, they have similar to (our) Dark Angels and use the opportunity to spread out in order to accomplish a common goal. Ostensibly they would be separate Chapters, but the Word Bearers would keep contact with their successors and have some weight with them. Perhaps then Lorgar could have gone on to create his Book of Lorgar for the loyalists. It would be a work speaking of ways to fight the temptations of Chaos in all its forms and how to banish them back to the Warp. Long pages detailing different types of incense to allow for proper meditation and spiritual exercise, the role of faith in battle and even things like how a priest's uniform should look. Written by golden-skinned hand, the Book of Lorgar would help the Imperium gain its first footholds in the fight against Chaos. Where the Ultramarines held the post-Heresy Imperium together by spreading their forces out, Lorgar would have done so by strengthening the faith of entire worlds with his pamphlets. Speeches broadcast across systems would urge people to trust in the Emperor and be vigilant against his enemies. the Word Bearers staying loyal are a different beast to the Word Bearers we have now. They wouldn't be creating cults, they'd be raising huge, attached armies of zealots - the Frateris Militia. They would be akin to the Black Templars, I think - indeed, the Word Bearers would still be in black armour, trying to bring light to the dark, paranoid Imperium.

 

LEGIO XVIII (SALAMANDERS):

Plague Marines

A deadly plague rushes across Nocturne and the Salamanders are ready to do anything for a cure. They fall to Nurgle to protect their homeworld. After their fall, Nocturne was destroyed by the Imperium, and now they live only to avenge the lives of their fallen families. They maintain seven Companies.

 

LEGIO XIX (RAVEN GUARD):

Tzeentchian

Raven Guard suffer heavy losses at Terra - after the Heresy, Corax attempts to rebuild the Legion by whatever means necessary. Tzeentch grants him his wish, and the 'Weregeld' are created, monstrous and bloated Marines with vestigial wings, feathers and beaks. These horrific creatures clash regularly in the Eye of Terror with Leman Russ and his Wulfen Berserkers.

 

LEGIO XX (ALPHA LEGION):

Worked to foil Guilliman during the Heresy. Misled and redirected the Ultramarines' forces, giving the Emperor time to recall his armies to Terra. After the Heresy, the Alpha Legion would have been instrumental in reclaiming lost worlds with minimal damage. They also would have been in a position to either stop, support or control the various Emperor cults springing up across the galaxy by infiltrating them and feeding back information.

 

 

 

The Imperium in the year 999.M41:

If the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Night Lords had all remained loyal then that's a hefty force that works largely through indirect means. The Word Bearers and Alpha Legion have cultists that do much of their fighting, while the Night Lords strike and fade into the shadows to let fear work against their enemies. Iron Warriors focus on fortifications, both building them and tearing them down. Thousand Sons function through knowledge and sorcery, using a finer touch to deal with their problems.

 

Maybe that would lead to a less brutish Imperium, though still dark in its subtlety. Cultists and minions spread throughout, collecting information on each other just in case the signs of heresy start to show again. The bureaucracy would still be nightmarish and sluggish, but more so due to its heightened paranoia. Right now the Imperium is more of an uncaring giant, but perhaps in this alternate reality it would be more of a terror state with careful eyes always watching its citizens with shadowed guardians stalking and waiting for orders. The Imperium is more focused inwardly than outwardly, especially if the best they can do with Macragge is contain it and prevent it from spreading further. Maybe instead of looking to rediscover worlds, it would have bunkered in on itself, taking firm hold of what worlds were left and fortifying them. What explorations do take place are slow affairs as cults are spread and seeded, new planets fortified and examined...

 

Something akin to Minority Report. Thousand Son sorcerors scanning for treachery in the higher offices of government while cultists gather information about potential heretical cells. Word Bearers walk the streets, carrying the torch of the Emperor and chanting their litanies as they call the sinners out to beg forgiveness. The Night Lords hunt troublesome vigilantes and isolate planets while the Alpha Legion works on the borders to misdirect and mislead potential outside threats. The idea of the Imperium facing inwards.

 

 

 

 

Comments are more than welcome - but please don't turn this into a thread where you try to force your ideas across, or complain because your cherished characters and heroes "wouldn't have acted that way."

 

 

Thanks for reading,

 

- Mol. :P

[ToyShip]

A quick thought, perhaps during the Council of Nikea (Nicea?) Magnus convinced the Emperor that his Sorcerors were of some use, and not heretical, thus remaining loyal. He sees the fall of Fenris, and the Emperor tasks the Thousand Sons with the destruction of the Space Wolves and the Fang?

 

I love the Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, and would like to see them vindicated.

[Commissar Molotov]

That's one place where history could've easily gone the other way. The idea of reversing the TS/SW relationship and having the Thousand Sons raze Fenris is interesting. Leman Russ's resultant hatred of Magnus could tie in with another reason why he might become a Fell Champion of Khorne.

[Apothete]

I'm probably not the best person to be contributing here, but I saw the glaring lack of content on one line and took a stab at it.

 

LEGIO XII (WORLD EATERS):

Angron realizes after years of anguished discontent that his father was correct in counseling him against the battle during his formative years, though he still mourns the loss of the band that he raised against the oppressive nobles. The change in attitude is not total and the lingering damage from the surgery forced on him by slavers in his youth still colors his thinking, but the Primarch turns his almost uncontrollable rage into a doctrine of ferocious surgical strikes that make use of the incredible strength and fleetness of his shock troops. The cool and calculating influence of his personal adjutant, Khârn, earns the latter the sobriquet of The Redeemer for his role in pulling the Primarch back from his bloodlust and helping him to see the righteousness of the God-Emperor's cause. The pair rally the support of the World Eaters and abandon the early experiments with duplicating the effects that surgery had upon Angron, committing their forces to strike-and-fade assaults all along the border of Ultramar in order to tie up the massive resources that Guilliman can bring to bear if allowed to his own means.

 

It is during one of these raids that Guilliman himself responds to what he sees as upstart followers of the Corpse-God, descending upon the loyalist World Eater forces with an overwhelming tide of Ultramarines. In order to spare his men the fate that he can feel descending upon him, a confirmation of the brooding that has occupied so much of his life, Angron selflessly takes a handful of his veterans and fights a holding action so that Khârn can lead a retreat back into Imperial space. In the ensuing conflict, the remaining Companies of World Eaters drive a desperate and brutal wedge into the heart of the Ultramarine offensive and allow Angron a chance to strike at the foul heretic that has served to inspire so many others. The ensuing battle sees Angron torn and bleeding, half impaled on the screaming blasphemy of a daemon blade that his opponent wields, but also allows him a surge of dying glory. Forcing himself down the unholy metal and towards the suddenly surprised Roboute, the World Eaters primarch strikes off both of his enemy's hands at the wrists with his last breath.

 

The daemon-prince desecrates the fallen Angron over the coming weeks, but his fury cannot replace what was taken from him. Later sightings by Imperial forces claim that Guilliman now sports a massive pair of crackling power claws that seem able to summon warpfire from between their serrated lengths.

 

In the meantime, Khârn the Redeemer reconstitutes the Legion and begins to cite Angron as if he were a saint, giving the World Eaters a cause even more personal than the eradication of Chaos. Their holy crusades build in fervor and numbers until they spill over once more, scouring Ultramarine worlds and pushing towards Macragge itself with their new banner - crossed hands beneath a white-toothed maw, centered over the planet at the heart of Ultramar.

[Commissar Molotov]

I love the idea of "Khârn the Redeemer". It fits in quite well with my imaginings that Bjorn the Fell-Handed would take the Betrayer's role, shattering the Space Wolves into scattered "Wolf Packs". Great input!

 

I suppose this project needs to take a number of phases, though I'm not set quite on how to organise it because I'm interested in peoples' creativity. We obviously need to look at the events that led up to the heresy, the heresy itself, and then the 999.M41 universe. Which Primarchs have survived, which have died, etc, etc.

[Apothete]

I added a little more to what I originally posted, so everything past the first paragraph is after Molotov praised me.

 

You know, just for clarity's sake...

[Commissar Molotov]

Interesting that you should talk about the fate of Angron in your revised edit. Here's what happened in our universe:

 

 

Lion El'Jonson - Disappeared, hidden under the Rock.

Fulgrim - Daemon Primarch, killed Roboute

Perturabo - Daemon Primarch, broods over Medrengard

Khan - Captured by Dark Eldar

Russ - Gone 'til the Wolftime

Dorn - Died defending the Eye of Terror

Curze - Died to vindicate his beliefs

Sanguinius - Killed by Horus

Ferrus Manus - Beheaded by Fulgrim

Angron - Daemon Primarch

Guilliman - Killed by Fulgrim

Mortarion - Daemon Primarch

Magnus - Daemon Primarch

Horus - Killed by Emperor

Lorgar - Daemon Prince

Vulkan - Missing

Corax - Missing

Alpharius - Killed by Guilliman?

 

In this Universe (we need an easy name to refer to it by):

 

Lion El'Jonson -?

Fulgrim - Killed by Ferrus Manus?

Perturabo -

Khan - ?

Russ - Daemon Primarch, currently banished for a Thousand Years

Dorn - Killed by the Emperor

Curze -

Sanguinius - The Angel of Blood, Daemon Primarch.

Ferrus Manus - ?

Angron -

Guilliman - Daemonic Overlord of Ultramar

Mortarion -

Magnus -

Horus - Died defending the Emperor

Lorgar - Builds the Ecclesiarchy,

Vulkan - Daemon Primarch

Corax - Rebuilds Legion after the Heresy - locked within his laboratories attempting to redeem his Legion. Daemon Primarch

Alpharius -

 

EDIT: The other thing to remember is that worlds like Mundus Planus and Caliban would've been destroyed, whilst worlds like Olympia, Nostromo and Colchis would be the staunch bastions that underpin the Imperium. Interesting thoughts...

[Apothete]

For ease of repeated typing, we could just amalgamate the two words and call it the Altresy.

 

I do like how you have Lorgar positioned, as the Word Bearers were my favorite fallen Legion and I can completely and utterly see them being the foundating of an alternate Ecclesiarchy if positions had been reversed. A similar move that someone else suggested and which I find intriguing is for Manus (my second favorite traitor Primarch), to be the source of the the Adeptus Psykana and an increased presence of Librarians within the ranks of the Legions once he gains help from Lorgar in convincing the Emperor to allow the training and fielding of restricted and intensely scrutinized sorcerors and psykers.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

If this Alter-k universe is a place that has fortified-and-held its territory, holding Guilliman at the borders of Ultramar, then it could be that the loyalist Primarchs survived longer. It depends on what happens in the Heresy's aftermath, I suppose. Most of the Primarchs were lost during the Scourging, as far as I know all of them were gone before the 3rd founding.

So, did the Scourging unfold in the same way in this other universe? So far there isn't a Legion that has taken the place of the Raven Guard and what happened to it at Istvaan V; without this Primarch having to do what Corax did for his Legion to survive, he wouldn't be consumed with guilt when the fighting was done and so would not have run away to the E-o-T (Ultramar). Would this mean he is still aliove, or did he die later on covered in glory?

For the others, I imagine the Lorgar would still be alive; his armies of zealots would never let him fall. And Magnus may have found a way to commune with the Emperor. Gotta stop now or I'll be typing forever!

 

GFP

[Commissar Molotov]

For ease of repeated typing, we could just amalgamate the two words and call it the Altresy.

 

I do like how you have Lorgar positioned, as the Word Bearers were my favorite fallen Legion and I can completely and utterly see them being the foundating of an alternate Ecclesiarchy if positions had been reversed. A similar move that someone else suggested and which I find intriguing is for Manus (my second favorite traitor Primarch), to be the source of the the Adeptus Psykana and an increased presence of Librarians within the ranks of the Legions once he gains help from Lorgar in convincing the Emperor to allow the training and fielding of restricted and intensely scrutinized sorcerors and psykers.

 

Given Barret's idea in the previous thread that the Lutherian Dark Angels founded the Inquisition, then we have the Word Bearers founding the Ecclesiarchy and the Thousand Sons having an influence over the Psykers - it seems this Imperium would be heavily influenced by the Astartes.

 

 

 

If this Alter-k universe is a place that has fortified-and-held its territory, holding Guilliman at the borders of Ultramar, then it could be that the loyalist Primarchs survived longer. It depends on what happens in the Heresy's aftermath, I suppose. Most of the Primarchs were lost during the Scourging, as far as I know all of them were gone before the 3rd founding.

So, did the Scourging unfold in the same way in this other universe? So far there isn't a Legion that has taken the place of the Raven Guard and what happened to it at Istvaan V; without this Primarch having to do what Corax did for his Legion to survive, he wouldn't be consumed with guilt when the fighting was done and so would not have run away to the E-o-T (Ultramar). Would this mean he is still aliove, or did he die later on covered in glory?

For the others, I imagine the Lorgar would still be alive; his armies of zealots would never let him fall. And Magnus may have found a way to commune with the Emperor. Gotta stop now or I'll be typing forever!

 

GFP

 

Feel free to keep typing! It's useful stuff. There may well need to be a "dropsite massacre" of sorts, as it's a key part of the Heresy and serves the useful purpose of effectively eliminating a number of Legions from the Heresy at large. After Istvaan the Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands don't really feature. We could use it to take out the Death Guard, Night Lords and World Eaters, as an example.

 

I see the Emperor's Children and the Iron Warriors (and one other?) holding the Imperial palace, definitely.

 

I imagine that there would be a Scourging, definitely. The difference in this universe being thatas well as the Eye of Terror, we also have the Ultramar daemonrealm - the Imperium can contain it, but they simply can't crush it. My thoughts were that the Raven Guard would be drastically reduced in number during the Heresy, giving Corax the opportunity to rebuild them. It ties into the Weregeld idea. Plus, in our 40k nearly all the Primarchs are out of play. Magnus, Lorgar, Mortarion, Perturabo and Fulgrim all seem to do nothing. Angron attacked Armageddon and was banished for his trouble - but the rest haven't done too much, leaving it to Abaddon to do most of the work.

 

In this Altersy(?) universe, I want there to be somewhat of a similar stagnant status quo as that in our 40k. The Imperium is on the brink of its collapse, the millennium is drawing to an end, the Necrons and Tyranids (and Tau?) are rising - but I see Corax as removed from his Legion. Perhaps not physically, but I can see him locked in his tower, conducting endless experiments to try to save his legion. All he keeps creating are mindless monsters, which get used by the Raven Guard in their battles.

 

It'd also be good if we could look at the Dark Angels, the Death Guard, the Thousand Sons and the Emperor's Children - all Legions I haven't done much with. I had the idea that the Emperor's Children still adhere to the "old ways" and don't adopt any new strategies or techniques - effectively giving us a present-day pre-heresy army. Beyond that, I have very little.

 

Regarding the Legions and Chapters, I think there would've been calls to curb the power of the Legions - but perhaps the edict wasn't enforced - some of the Primarchs chose to split their forces (I can see Alpharius allowing it...) but others might not've.

[Apothete]

Given Barret's idea in the previous thread that the Lutherian Dark Angels founded the Inquisition, then we have the Word Bearers founding the Ecclesiarchy and the Thousand Sons having an influence over the Psykers - it seems this Imperium would be heavily influenced by the Astartes.

 

Perverse as it may seem on the face of things, I'm avoiding the older thread so that I can't accidentally use anyone else's ideas as my own and instead approach this as a fresh problem.

 

That being said, I could easily see the Astartes being the lynchpin of the entire Imperial society with the provision that the Emperor be alive and active enough to supervise them. A large part of the problem with the current 40k grimdark is that any intervention by the Throne is being done through indirect means, or at best through some kind of divine intervention rather than a battlefleet being lead with His incredible gestalt mind at the head of it. I'm not sure how far this idea can go without keeping the primarchs in place, at least on the Heretic side of things, because you're going to need to have opposition worthy of Space Marines that haven't been deprived of their original creator's wisdom and guidance.

 

To go with the theme that we seem to be developing, though... Would it make sense for the Alpha Legion to be overseeing the Imperial Guard and the Night Lords over the Vindicare, Culexus, Callidus, and Eversor temples? With the addition of a Legion training, assisting, and directing the Officio Assasinorum in cooperation with a Legion that founded the Ordos, you have even more Astartes influence over the galaxy.

 

Feel free to keep typing! It's useful stuff. There may well need to be a "dropsite massacre" of sorts, as it's a key part of the Heresy and serves the useful purpose of effectively eliminating a number of Legions from the Heresy at large. After Istvaan the Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands don't really feature. We could use it to take out the Death Guard, Night Lords and World Eaters, as an example.

 

What if the Dropsite Massacre happened in reverse, with the Loyalists annihilating several of the turncoats after Magnus divines that they mean to turn their backs on the Emperor and run to the daemon-realm of Ultramar? Rather than waiting for the forces of Chaos to assault them or sneak attack Imperial worlds, the Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Lutheran Dark Angels, and Sons of Horus launch a coordinated offensive that spears deep into multiple systems all along the eastern fringe, prompting the attack that eventually culminates in the outright drive towards Terra and the eventual death of Horus himself. The Heresy still centers on the influence of Chaos, but the entire campaign is the result of a pre-emptive strike meant to decapitate the nearest of the Traitor Legions, who return fire with a massive warfleet that none in the Imperium had been prepared to face.

 

Not even Magnus saw far enough to know the preparations that had been ongoing, and so his prophecy leads to a war that costs untold lives amongst all Legions. With all the best intentions, the Imperium sparks a war that will rage for millenia.

 

The conflict would have come on its own, and perhaps sooner rather than later. Nobody can say whether the offensive allowed the successful defense of Terra or whether it was an ill-advised and hasty move that brought more pain than a more concentrated effort at a later time might have.

 

I see the Emperor's Children and the Iron Warriors (and one other?) holding the Imperial palace, definitely.

 

The Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, and the Death Guard, I would say.

 

In this Altersy(?) universe, I want there to be somewhat of a similar stagnant status quo as that in our 40k. The Imperium is on the brink of its collapse, the millennium is drawing to an end, the Necrons and Tyranids (and Tau?) are rising - but I see Corax as removed from his Legion. Perhaps not physically, but I can see him locked in his tower, conducting endless experiments to try to save his legion. All he keeps creating are mindless monsters, which get used by the Raven Guard in their battles.

 

It'd also be good if we could look at the Dark Angels, the Death Guard, the Thousand Sons and the Emperor's Children - all Legions I haven't done much with. I had the idea that the Emperor's Children still adhere to the "old ways" and don't adopt any new strategies or techniques - effectively giving us a present-day pre-heresy army. Beyond that, I have very little.

 

I could definitely see the Death Guard being staunch defenders stationed on Terra, a part of the eventual Heresy itself. The Thousand Sons seem like they would be prime candidates for replacing the Schola Psykana and the Adeptus Astropathica, or at least involved in the foundation of those groups if not their actual day-to-day running. Magnus and his closest lieutenants could be a kind of seer-council that advises the Emperor and the tacticians of the other Astartes Chapters, while also maintaining their own Legion. In fact, I could easily see Magnus himself taking pride in being the source of all Astartes Librarians, running an academy world very similar to the way that the Mechanicus draws Techmarines to Mars for indoctrination and study. It would keep some of his pride and hubris while allowing him to still function as a loyalist.

 

Regarding the Legions and Chapters, I think there would've been calls to curb the power of the Legions - but perhaps the edict wasn't enforced - some of the Primarchs chose to split their forces (I can see Alpharius allowing it...) but others might not've.

 

Perhaps the Emperor asks them to do it out of respect to him, rather than decreeing that it must be so. He relies on his children's good will to prevent further divisiveness, allowing them to choose the honorable path instead of forcing it upon them.

[Commissar Molotov]

If it wasn't clear in my previous posts (and I apologise if it wasn't) the Emperor is also on the Golden Throne (or something similar) in this alternate heresy. The reason for that is because he's such an important and dominant character that it seems impossible to have him around. Plus, if he was around, he'd have ground Ultramar into the dirt! :)

 

Your dropsite ideas are useful, though, and certainly something I want to give some thought to.

[CernunnosX]

I don't want to take up too much of everyone's time here, as there are greater minds than my own at work on this project. A project that I think is a fantastic concept by the way. Just the same, I wanted to throw in my two cents.

 

Just as an alternate take on Khan's current fluff, perhaps rather than being captured by the Dark Eldar or lost in the Webway, the Khan finds a way into the Webway and assaults Commorragh with his legion and conquers at least part of it. With a new base of operations he and the remnants of his legion can launch lightning raids that put those of the Dark Eldar he's conquered to shame.

 

This too is an alternate take on current fluff. There have been some ties between the Necrons and the Iron Hands hinted at in fluff. In this alternate universe perhaps it is an opportunity to truly flesh out these ties. They've always hated flesh and been technically inclined, but without their loyalty to the Emperor they might seek out another patron to serve. Perhaps the Iron Hands are a massive fleet of raiding renegades that journey through the stars in giant black monoliths of living metal, or perhaps when they go to war their obliterators sprout long-barreled weapons that emit eerie green beams of deadly energy. Or perhaps they just seek out Tomb Worlds and wake up every Necron they can find. Maybe Ferrus Manus uses his silver hands to absorb a C'tan and becomes an indestructible being of living metal, rather than becoming a daemon-primarch or just dying.

 

As I said, just thought I'd add in my two cents.

[Commissar Molotov]

The concept of Khan conquering the webway is a fantastic one - the Eldar would go nuts over that one! With that said, I'm not entirely sure as to the viability of such a concept. If anyone can give testament for or against the viability of such an idea, I'd be very appreciative! I can certainly see the Eldar fighting tooth and nail to drive the White Scars out of the webway.

 

As to the Necron influence on the Iron Hands, I personally have never liked the link being so overt. Especially given that the Tzeentchian Iron Hands we have right now draw their power from the warp, whilst the C'Tan detest the warp.

 

I'm trying to decide whether the Dark Angels could work as some sort of Word Bearer parallel - carrying the fervent word of Chaos, propogating the Chaos religion. Not sure about that, but I have this vision of the tower of angels floating in the warp, ethereal lightning crackling around it. If you were going to look at something like Angels of Darkness you could argue that perhaps Jonson didn't commit his forces til the end of the Heresy - but for him to be on the losing side means he would've failed in his gamble. Perhaps he intensely resents Guilliman and co for "failing". Actually... given that our Dark Angels are quite secretive and individualistic, perhaps these Dark Angels are individualistic also, harbouring resentment for the other Legions not being strong enough to carry the day.

 

I also recall that Guilliman took the Gauntlets of Ultramar from a Chaos Champion. Perhaps these could've corrupted him? I've been giving some thought to him, and I'm somewhat stuck between two options. Either we have him as the brooding overlord of Ultramar, or we could try for a "dark mirror" of his current state. Perhaps Fulgrim wounds him post-heresy and he lapses into some sort of fugue state (or we can go whole-hog and put him in stasis) upon his throne. Without his iron rule, the Ultramarines would lapse into many smaller warbands, all fighting over Ultramar. My concern with this scenario is that the Ultramarines might not be able to put up a strong enough defence to prevent the loyalists breaching Ultramar.

 

I was thinking about what Apothete said, and I reckon perhaps Angron would've filled a similar role to the Rogal Dorn of our universe - he threw his forces into an "Iron Cage" and it tempered him, allowing him to realise what was needed of him post-heresy. With Khârn the Redeemer at his side, he can go on to great things.

 

Word Bearers - perhaps we could mirror the Ultramarines being out of reach and mired by the Word Bearers - perhaps when the Heresy begins the WB are at the edge of the galaxy, bringing light to the darkness. They return to find the Heresy over, the Emperor wounded and ascended as a God - the start of the God-Emperor cult. Perhaps Colchis becomes the centre of the Ecclesiarchy rather than Terra (or Ophelia).

 

To continue the feud between the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves (even after the destruction of Fenris) I was thinking that the Librarians of the Thousand Sons, so dedicated to controlling their powers, would see the Space Wolves as a potent analogy - the Librarians have a "beast within" and must resist the perils of the warp, whilst the Wolves could not resist the beast within.

 

Another idea I have (and the last time I'll edit this post): Perhaps Roboute Guilliman killed Alpharius (or thinks he has - in actuality, he kills Omegon) allowing Alpharius to rise resurgent and inflict serious damage upon the Ultramarines?

[Apothete]

The concept of Khan conquering the webway is a fantastic one - the Eldar would go nuts over that one! With that said, I'm not entirely sure as to the viability of such a concept. If anyone can give testament for or against the viability of such an idea, I'd be very appreciative! I can certainly see the Eldar fighting tooth and nail to drive the White Scars out of the webway.

 

I'm not amazingly familiar with the Eldar, but there are Webway gates on more than a few Imperial worlds (including Terra). Since the Webway itself is an alternative to outright Warp travel, it would arguably be safer than Khan just charging off through a portal and into the immaterium. The biggest threat once inside is the twisting, labyrinthine passageways that even the Eldar don't remember how to fully navigate. Should Khan figure out a way to find a heading while within the passages or have access to a fragmentary map that he could expand upon through scouting and raiding, I could easily see him becoming a serious thorn in the side of the Craftworld Eldar.

 

However, he would probably draw the ire of every single Craftworld since the Eldar consider that to be their turf.

 

I'm trying to decide whether the Dark Angels could work as some sort of Word Bearer parallel - carrying the fervent word of Chaos, propogating the Chaos religion. Not sure about that, but I have this vision of the tower of angels floating in the warp, ethereal lightning crackling around it. If you were going to look at something like Angels of Darkness you could argue that perhaps Jonson didn't commit his forces til the end of the Heresy - but for him to be on the losing side means he would've failed in his gamble. Perhaps he intensely resents Guilliman and co for "failing". Actually... given that our Dark Angels are quite secretive and individualistic, perhaps these Dark Angels are individualistic also, harbouring resentment for the other Legions not being strong enough to carry the day.

 

Your latter scenario is one I find much more likely, since El'Jonson didn't entirely stay in favor of the Imperium in the current universe, either. The goals and motivations of the Dark Angels seem to take precedent over any other allegiance they might owe, even if they do pay lip service to those bonds and honor them when they have time to do so. He would fight Luther and have the destruction of Caliban happen almost exactly as it did, though this time the Rock and the Tower of Angels would be sucked off into the Warp and end up elsewhere so that they can brood about failing to eradicate the Emperor and having those filthy, foolish Fallen remain with the loyalists and their dead God-Emperor.

 

What mike make them even more fun is to have them be a sort of independent city-state with the might of an Astartes legion at their beck and call, a renegade against both Chaos and the Imperium in that neither have served their intended ends terribly well. Their arms and armor would be anachronistic, their motivations even more shrouded in secret than before, and their appearance on a battlefield potentially ominous for either side.

 

Of course, they would be an overt threat for the Lutheran loyalists...

 

I also recall that Guilliman took the Gauntlets of Ultramar from a Chaos Champion. Perhaps these could've corrupted him? I've been giving some thought to him, and I'm somewhat stuck between two options. Either we have him as the brooding overlord of Ultramar, or we could try for a "dark mirror" of his current state. Perhaps Fulgrim wounds him post-heresy and he lapses into some sort of fugue state (or we can go whole-hog and put him in stasis) upon his throne. Without his iron rule, the Ultramarines would lapse into many smaller warbands, all fighting over Ultramar. My concern with this scenario is that the Ultramarines might not be able to put up a strong enough defence to prevent the loyalists breaching Ultramar.

 

I still like the thought of Guilliman going over to the side of Chaos through choice rather than trickery, naked ambition and pride driving him to see himself as at least as good as his father. My brief note in my edit above even gave an excuse for him to have a more Chaos-tinged version of the Gauntlets that would require any successor to take them from him, severing the symbols of this smaller empire and having them implanted upon himself.

 

On the subject of a scattered Ultramar, though... I think we need to keep them together as the tip of the spear, a hardened stronghold of Chaos that keeps the otherwise stronger loyalist forces on their toes and constantly looking for Black Crusades from that quarter. After all, we don't have a real reason for Abbadon to be coming from the Eye of Terror just yet, and so the sweeping Chaos incursions need a base of operations. Where better than a Guilliman-headed military machine in the guise of corrupted Ultramar, where the massive Legion can replace its numbers and manufacture the tools of war? It would probably be better to leave the small, roaming warbands to other sectors and keep a powerful opposition in at least a few places.

 

I was thinking about what Apothete said, and I reckon perhaps Angron would've filled a similar role to the Rogal Dorn of our universe - he threw his forces into an "Iron Cage" and it tempered him, allowing him to realise what was needed of him post-heresy. With Khârn the Redeemer at his side, he can go on to great things.

 

My personal take was that Khârn would talk him into abandoning lines of failed experimentation and tactical thinking, adopting a more honorable and Imperially acceptable track. The World Eaters were on their way to possibly becoming a Traitor Legion right up until Angron managed to come back from the brink, but they owe it to Khârn.

 

Plus, I like having Angron die in service to the Emperor while wounding Guilliman. It just feels right to me in some odd sense.

 

Word Bearers - perhaps we could mirror the Ultramarines being out of reach and mired by the Word Bearers - perhaps when the Heresy begins the WB are at the edge of the galaxy, bringing light to the darkness. They return to find the Heresy over, the Emperor wounded and ascended as a God - the start of the God-Emperor cult. Perhaps Colchis becomes the centre of the Ecclesiarchy rather than Terra (or Ophelia).

 

I'll have to think about this.

 

To continue the feud between the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves (even after the destruction of Fenris) I was thinking that the Librarians of the Thousand Sons, so dedicated to controlling their powers, would see the Space Wolves as a potent analogy - the Librarians have a "beast within" and must resist the perils of the warp, whilst the Wolves could not resist the beast within.

 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes... This is my favorite thing that you've come up with since the main list, especially since it's a way to tie together my vision of the Thousand Sons as the Altersy version of the Psykana and the Altersy Space Wolves...

[Commissar Molotov]

As a note on nomenclature, let's try using the "Mirror Universe" to refer to this. It's stolen from Star Trek, I know, but my first idea (the 'Dark Heresy') has been taken by the 40k RPG. So we can talk about the "MU Death Guard" and the like - it's easier than 'altersy'. ;)

 

Now, onwards:

 

I'm not amazingly familiar with the Eldar, but there are Webway gates on more than a few Imperial worlds (including Terra). Since the Webway itself is an alternative to outright Warp travel, it would arguably be safer than Khan just charging off through a portal and into the immaterium. The biggest threat once inside is the twisting, labyrinthine passageways that even the Eldar don't remember how to fully navigate. Should Khan figure out a way to find a heading while within the passages or have access to a fragmentary map that he could expand upon through scouting and raiding, I could easily see him becoming a serious thorn in the side of the Craftworld Eldar.

 

However, he would probably draw the ire of every single Craftworld since the Eldar consider that to be their turf.

 

It did occur to me that with the Webway breached, Jaghatai would perhaps become the primary opponent of the Eldar. But equally, with the webway breached, Jaghatai would be able to summon daemons into it. I think the Eldar would be even less prominent in this universe.

 

Which reminds me - another reason why I was against the Necron link with Ferrus Manus is because I want to maintain parts of this timeline. For example, the Tyranids would arrive in 745.M41 - which would be interesting indeed. Perhaps the Imperium has to divert resources to deal with the threat, allowing the Ultramarines to expand. Perhaps the Imperium diverts the Tyranids onto Macragge, and the Chaos forces have to destroy the Tyranids utterly.

 

 

Your latter scenario is one I find much more likely, since El'Jonson didn't entirely stay in favor of the Imperium in the current universe, either. The goals and motivations of the Dark Angels seem to take precedent over any other allegiance they might owe, even if they do pay lip service to those bonds and honor them when they have time to do so. He would fight Luther and have the destruction of Caliban happen almost exactly as it did, though this time the Rock and the Tower of Angels would be sucked off into the Warp and end up elsewhere so that they can brood about failing to eradicate the Emperor and having those filthy, foolish Fallen remain with the loyalists and their dead God-Emperor.

 

What mike make them even more fun is to have them be a sort of independent city-state with the might of an Astartes legion at their beck and call, a renegade against both Chaos and the Imperium in that neither have served their intended ends terribly well. Their arms and armor would be anachronistic, their motivations even more shrouded in secret than before, and their appearance on a battlefield potentially ominous for either side.

 

Of course, they would be an overt threat for the Lutheran loyalists...

 

I'm not quite sure what state the Lutherans are in during 999.M41 - if they became the Inquisitors (good Chapter name, that) then that's something different than if they just became a loyalist Chapter dedicated to hunting down the Dark Angels. (The 'Sons of Luther', the 'Knights of the Order', etc, etc.)

 

I still like the thought of Guilliman going over to the side of Chaos through choice rather than trickery, naked ambition and pride driving him to see himself as at least as good as his father. My brief note in my edit above even gave an excuse for him to have a more Chaos-tinged version of the Gauntlets that would require any successor to take them from him, severing the symbols of this smaller empire and having them implanted upon himself.

 

On the subject of a scattered Ultramar, though... I think we need to keep them together as the tip of the spear, a hardened stronghold of Chaos that keeps the otherwise stronger loyalist forces on their toes and constantly looking for Black Crusades from that quarter. After all, we don't have a real reason for Abbadon to be coming from the Eye of Terror just yet, and so the sweeping Chaos incursions need a base of operations. Where better than a Guilliman-headed military machine in the guise of corrupted Ultramar, where the massive Legion can replace its numbers and manufacture the tools of war? It would probably be better to leave the small, roaming warbands to other sectors and keep a powerful opposition in at least a few places.

 

Whilst I do really like the idea of an incapacitated Primarch being worshipped at the centre of a Temple-Complex on Macragge, I can see what you mean - we need Ultramar to be a 'Perversorium', a hellish realm that's ruptured the membranes between reality and the warp.

 

We can have Guilliman falling through choice, but I have to insist we make him a compelling character. Otherwise it smacks of the rampant Ultra-hate that floods the 40k community. I want to encourage a psychologically diverse take on 40k. Rogal Dorn was an arrogant man - but that doesn't mean he was a bad man. Then again, some of the loyalist Primarchs were arguably 'bad' men but fate means we look on them as the good guys. So and so.

 

Something else that occurs to me is that most of the heresy-era characters would be dead - Loken, Lucius, etc - whilst the heretics would still have their characters alive - figures such as Bjorn the Fell-Handed and Sigismund.

 

My personal take was that Khârn would talk him into abandoning lines of failed experimentation and tactical thinking, adopting a more honorable and Imperially acceptable track. The World Eaters were on their way to possibly becoming a Traitor Legion right up until Angron managed to come back from the brink, but they owe it to Khârn. Plus, I like having Angron die in service to the Emperor while wounding Guilliman. It just feels right to me in some odd sense.

 

Not too sure about your Angron/Guilliman scene, if only because you focused too much on the details (cutting of his hands, etc.) - though that makes me consider that instead of the Gauntlets of Ultramar that they could be the 'Talons of Ultramar' or somesuch. I'm certainly agreeing that Khârn helped talk Angron down - my suggestion was that the Iron Cage (or whatever it's called) would soften Angron up in order to allow Khârn to talk him down.

 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes... This is my favorite thing that you've come up with since the main list, especially since it's a way to tie together my vision of the Thousand Sons as the Altersy version of the Psykana and the Altersy Space Wolves...

 

Glad to help, I guess. :)

[Sons of Horus]

this is very interesting considering how many "inverted Heresies" have been appearing lately. i myself have thought about an opposite heresy but it was very much different from this. i voted Sanguinius to be the leader of the traitors.

[Commissar Molotov]

That's why in the other thread I've posted (the link is here) about the 'Myriad Universes' concept. Write up your ideas and perhaps we can get them into the Librarium. :devil:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Would the Mournival have fractured as it does in the HH books?

 

Also, if you want to make the Iron Hands less linked to Necrons, why not tie them to the Dark Mechanicus and the events in Mechanicum? Whilst the whole of the AdMech can be said to have links to Necrons, the Dark Mechanicus seems to leave this for warp-influence and scrapcode.

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, I mentioned in my first post that I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels - tying in the new canon into this MU Heresy would be very welcome indeed, and that's partly why I posted it in this forum, so people enamoured with the series would be able to contribute. My thoughts are that the ofur members of the MOurnival would have created four very different successor Chapters.

 

[EDIT]: But yes, my thoughts were to bring the Iron Hands more in line with the Dark Mechanicus and warp-technology.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

Two thoughts. (Or at least two that I've managed to wrestle into some sort of sense :D )

The Eye of Terror. In the Mirror 'verse, surely this wouldn't be such a big problem? If Ultramar is a daemon realm then there must be a lot of warp energy floating around, enough to power daemonic infestations and sorcery. So, with the defeated heretics fleeing Terra, would they bother with the Eye at all? I see this as being more like the Maelstrom, just larger; a den of thieves, mutants, deserters and pirates, just larger and more chaos influenced. Maybe the Raven Guard make this their home, Corax using the raw warp to infuse his creations, like a supercharged Fabius Bile.

The Iron Hands seem to me to be less likely to be Slaaneshi than Undivided. It is just the idea that they would shed their bodies in favour of steel and adamantium, when flesh would give them so much more sensation. To be pleasure-seekers, however, how about if they put their minds in metal bodies, then stretch sheets of skin over them, the nerve endings attatched to their brains so that they can still feel the sensations of battle. After each battle ,what flesh is left is torn and flensed to wring out the last shreds of pleasure, then replaced for the next battle. I see them as something like Necron 'Flayed Ones', Obliterator-sized bodies covered in pink flesh that, when hit with las- and bolter-rounds just drives them into a greater frenzy of bloodletting and debauchery. Their relationship with the Dark Mechanicum, and maybe even Corax, giving them better and better ways to 'perfect' their bodies, taking away the weakness of flesh whilst still retaining the ability to feel sensations.

I'm enjoying this, so I'll try to come up with some more!

 

GFP

[Commissar Molotov]

Slaneeshi? My thought was that the Iron Hands would be Tzeentchian - the "Flesh is weak", so they're infected by the techno-virus. Or something. To me, the Imperial Fists become the Noise Marines, but on a totally different scale to the Emperor's Children. Imagine massive artillery pieces, true hellcannon... not the nipples and chains Slaneesh, but a much darker, more sadistic one.

[Apothete]

Slaneeshi? My thought was that the Iron Hands would be Tzeentchian - the "Flesh is weak", so they're infected by the techno-virus. Or something. To me, the Imperial Fists become the Noise Marines, but on a totally different scale to the Emperor's Children. Imagine massive artillery pieces, true hellcannon... not the nipples and chains Slaneesh, but a much darker, more sadistic one.

 

I don't have the time at the moment to go back to everything you had to say to my last post, Mol, but this did catch my eye.

 

Since the Thousand Sons are loyalists and we don't have the internecine conflict on the Planet of Sorcerors that happens in the current universe, should we have some mirror of those events in the development of the Iron Hands? I wouldn't go so far as to have it happen with the whole Chapter, but what if the same sort of rites are enacted upon at least some of the burgeoning techno-Tzeentchian Brothers and turn them into spirits encased within blasphemed and completely sealed power armor? Alternatively, what if the techno-virus can't be controlled and finds ways to graft and modify technological artifacts and wargear that the Iron Hands touch or come near to, eventually turning even the oldest Brothers into a bionic equivalent of Obliterators?

 

Or we combine the two, with many if not all of the Iron Hands willingly becoming one with their armor and eschewing flesh entirely, possibly with some kind of lengthy and profane implantation process akin to the sarcophogi used by the Blood Angels. The longer an Iron Hands Marine lives, the larger, more complex, more ornate, and more lethal his armored body becomes, until the most ancient are practically mechano-Obliterators. The truly, truly debased would merge themselves with vehicles rather than the anthropomorphic suits of armor, giving Defilers, Dreadnoughts, and tanks fielded by the Chapter, allowing the "Daemonic Possession" characteristic without actually invoking a Daemon.

[Frost Knight]

Wow guys this is great! Some Thoughts: (Italics are my ideas)

 

Lion El'Jonson -?

Fulgrim - Killed by Ferrus Manus?

Perturabo -

Khan - I dont very much like the Idea of him controlling the webway it to me seems abit "out there" i dont have any other ideas though.

Russ - Daemon Primarch, currently banished for a Thousand Years. Could be he is in the warp fighting in arenas (very much like in one of the Grey Knights books) for the right to lead the Space Wolves with the help of many trillions of deamons to assault Terra? Possibily killing other Deamon Princes to be King Deamon Prince not a god)

Dorn - Killed by the Emperor

Curze -

Sanguinius - The Angel of Blood, Daemon Primarch. And the takes the whole vampire thing to new heights.

Ferrus Manus - Are scattered into warbands looking for ancient technology and trying to unlock old, dark (green glowing necron-y secrets?) I like the Idea of the Technovirus maybe not the Tzeentch because the Raven Guard already have it. Could be that these guys are the new Iron Warriors and not totally worshipping one god but using them to get what they want.

Angron -

Guilliman - Daemonic Overlord of Ultramar

Mortarion -

Magnus -

Horus - Died defending the Emperor

Lorgar - Builds the Ecclesiarchy, First Saint is praised very much?

Vulkan - Daemon Primarch

Corax - Rebuilds Legion after the Heresy - locked within his laboratories attempting to redeem his Legion. Daemon Primarch. Maybe gone insane after tampering with it for years. Probably a stupid idea but could be that he was accidentaly trying to fix already corrupt DNA and all of his work is for nothing but he does not know it yet?

Alpharius -

[Favoured of the Emperor]

I like the Dark Angel (loyalist) -inquisition role - as in my post from the other thread:

 

Maybe the Dark Angels that stayed loyal could act as some kind of inquisition, working alone to hunt out the roots of heresy that caused their brothers to turn, much like inquisitor lords now. Maybe some formed the first grey knights, a la Garro and Qruze.

 

I for one cannot see Iron Hands as being slaanesh, as I said before slaanesh is all about pelasures of the flesh and they are all about the flesh is weak, so they would be opposote. Maybe nurgle, as the disease would purge out the weak flesh with desease hardened flesh.

 

I still think the "wolf time" should still be included in the space wolf fluff, maybe as a crusade for khorne or something.