An Alternate Heresy

[LordMetalBoxes]

heh, how Ironic some friends and IO got involved in doing aomething similair to this awhile ago

 

Well we did place the Salamander as Nurglites, due to Nocturnes Irridiation, but reading aboput the Tzeentchian Iron hands has caused me to think of something different. While that idea is intriguing I can see the Ih taking more of the Plague marine role, with Big Ol' Daddy Nurgle protecting his followers weak flesh, perhaps with the afore-mentioned techno-virus. The only problem is Nurgles more stagnant organic methods do seem to clash with the mechanically advancement mentality of Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands

 

as mentioned the Eye of Terror doesn;t seem quite like the main threat in the MU that it does in reg 40k. Wjhjere could have the Imperium caught betwene Macragge and the Tau pushing from the East, while something comes from the EoT in the west, not to mention Crons and Nids. also to take away from the Power armored dudes for a moment, what would close proximity to the tainrted Ultramar have the Tau, ure they have no or little presence in the warp, but perhaps this could lead to Chaos or Dark Tau

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

Not quite sure where I got the Iron Hands/Slaanesh thing from. Must have been an old discussion that has taken root in my head!

Perturabo - After the triumph at Ullanor, The Emperor retires from the crusade. But he doesn't leave alone; he tasks Perturabo and his Legion of Iron Warriors with the fortification of the Imperial Palace on Terra. It is a bitter-sweet time for the Primarch as he has to leave the Great Crusade to his brothers. The only good point is that he will no longer have to work with Dorn. As the years have passed, Dorn's boasting has become more and more wearisome until, when on a tour of a newly built bastion on a newly compliant world accopmanied by Horus and Gulliman, it comes to a head; Dorn turns on Perturabo, belittling his work and vaunting his Fists over the mere garrison troop Iron Warriors. The Iron Warrior Priomarch, incapable of lying, faces his brother and tells him that shoud even the IMperial Fists attack, they would break against the walls as surely as water against adamantium.

Dorn throws himself at Perturabo and they trade blows, the IMperial Fist Primarch smashing his fists into his brothers face before being driven to the floor by hammer blows that would kill any other man. Horus and Guilliman pull the two apart but the damage is done. The bodyguard trops present witness what happens, a poisinous seed sown between the Iron Warriors and the Fists as each Legion blames the other. Sensing the deteriorating situation Guilliman leaves, taking Dorn with him. His jealousy of the Emperor's bestowing the title of 'Warmaster' has eaten away at his once noble soul and his plans for rebellion are already well advanced; seeing the hatred inn Dorn Guilliman makes his move, fanning his brother's hubris and arrogance and convincing him that Perturabo's commission to turn Terra into a fortress is a personal slight by an uncaring father. Dorn is the first to turn to Guilliman's plan, pledging his Legion and his soul.

Konrad Curze - Istvaan V was a disaster for the Emperor's loyal sons. Fully half of the Legions turn traitor, Guilliman purging his gene-sons at Istvaan III and striking the first blow in the larger war at Istvaan V. The Night Lords are one of the loyalsit Legions charged with bringing their rogue brother to heel and they land with the Death Guard and the Thousand Sons, intent on finishing things there and then. BUt the 4 Legions who are supposed to be supporting them turn on in a vile display of trachery. BUt Guilliman doesn't have things all his own way. Curze and his Legion, even in such exposed and crowded terrain, are impossible to pin down. They still take horrendous casualties, but Curze manages to lead out of the ambush site, where they turn and launch a series of hit-and-run attacks to try to save their comrades. The ambush slideds towards a war of attrition, the Death Guard too tenaciuos to be easily defeated and Magnus' Legion using the warp to ravage their enemies' lines. Guilliman changes plan, with all loyalist ships destroyed he evacuates his forces form the planet and strikes for Terra, leaving Curze and his brothers stranded.

That's it so far. I don't know if that's the direction you want to go in, so I'll hang on and cogitate on it some more until see what direction you're going in.

Cracking Heresy, Gromit!

 

GFP

[CernunnosX]

Regarding Khan: I've thought on this a bit and read the Dark Eldar and Eldar Codeci I have laying around. I agree that Khan or his legion controlling the Webway is a poor idea, as even the Eldar and their dark kin don't fully control it. I think the Harlequins come closest, if any really do. That wasn't really the intent of my two cents though, I sort of envisioned Khan in the Webway striking like lightning (as is the nature of his legion) everywhere in the galaxy, a perpetual thorn in the side of the Imerpium (depending on his numbers after the MU Heresy). Perhaps based in Commorragh, perhaps just on an endless ride through the twisting turns of the Webway, never knowing where they'll end up, but always ready to take skulls and shed blood in Khorne's name wherever their endless hunt takes them.

 

If my Eldar codex is to be believed it is not unheard of for various races to just end up falling through the Webway portals. They are everywhere, some are blocked off and locked away forevermore (like those that used to be on Eldar worlds in what is now the Eye of Terror), but there are hundreds, if not thousands all across the galaxy. In the current universe Harlequins have been known to not only escort Inquisitors through the Webway, but have led them to the Black Library itself. Now, I am not suggesting they do this with Khan and his marines, but at the very least they could "chase" Dark Eldar raiders into the Webway.

 

Granted, to just have Khan hit the throttle on his bike or whatever and shoot on through a portal is something of a flimsy plot device, but I think the whole concept is fairly doable.

 

Hope I've helped.

 

CernunnosX

[ToyShip]

Not a real long post, but Im really liking the ideas here, I need to read it through again just so i can post some in depth ideas. I had a thought that perhaps Ahriman (of the Thousand Sons), discovered a different rubric, one of Daemon slaying or some such, and Magnus gifted him with lordship over 1000 marines to create an Anti-Daemon force ala the Grey Knights. The GW Universe Grey Knights being all psykers, I think that would tie in well.

 

The rubric would be akin to the Shrouding and the Rituals of Detestation that the GKs go through. Which brings me to another thought, would there still be Soul Binding in this universe? Perhaps instead there would be different rituals?

 

And what about the Ad-Mech in this whole business? They made the Legions a viable fighting force, what if Kelbor Hal hadn't fallen?

[Commissar Molotov]

Slaneeshi? My thought was that the Iron Hands would be Tzeentchian - the "Flesh is weak", so they're infected by the techno-virus. Or something. To me, the Imperial Fists become the Noise Marines, but on a totally different scale to the Emperor's Children. Imagine massive artillery pieces, true hellcannon... not the nipples and chains Slaneesh, but a much darker, more sadistic one.

 

I don't have the time at the moment to go back to everything you had to say to my last post, Mol, but this did catch my eye.

 

Since the Thousand Sons are loyalists and we don't have the internecine conflict on the Planet of Sorcerors that happens in the current universe, should we have some mirror of those events in the development of the Iron Hands? I wouldn't go so far as to have it happen with the whole Chapter, but what if the same sort of rites are enacted upon at least some of the burgeoning techno-Tzeentchian Brothers and turn them into spirits encased within blasphemed and completely sealed power armor? Alternatively, what if the techno-virus can't be controlled and finds ways to graft and modify technological artifacts and wargear that the Iron Hands touch or come near to, eventually turning even the oldest Brothers into a bionic equivalent of Obliterators?

 

Or we combine the two, with many if not all of the Iron Hands willingly becoming one with their armor and eschewing flesh entirely, possibly with some kind of lengthy and profane implantation process akin to the sarcophogi used by the Blood Angels. The longer an Iron Hands Marine lives, the larger, more complex, more ornate, and more lethal his armored body becomes, until the most ancient are practically mechano-Obliterators. The truly, truly debased would merge themselves with vehicles rather than the anthropomorphic suits of armor, giving Defilers, Dreadnoughts, and tanks fielded by the Chapter, allowing the "Daemonic Possession" characteristic without actually invoking a Daemon.

 

I wouldn't want the mirror to be too obvious in the Iron Hands. Rather than a rogue Sorceror casting the spell, etc, etc, I intended for Tzeentch to grant their boon. I do like the idea of them growing larger and more deadly as they progress. A whole legion of possessed, I suppose. That's rather Tzeentchian in its own way. I imagine the Techno-Virus would've spread to other Legions from the Iron Hands (allowing Obliterators.)

 

Wow guys this is great! Some Thoughts: (Italics are my ideas)...

 

Thanks for the ideas. Some of them are very useful indeed.

 

I take your point about the Iron Hands and the Raven Guard being Tzeentchian cults. The flipside of that is that the Raven Guard are a scattered, fragementary force doing little of consequence, and the Iron Hands are rather small as well. Compared to the massed ranks of the Space Wolves, or the hell-batteries of the Imperial Fists, and I don't want the Tzeentchian angle to be forgotten.

 

I like the Dark Angel (loyalist) -inquisition role - as in my post from the other thread:

 

Maybe the Dark Angels that stayed loyal could act as some kind of inquisition, working alone to hunt out the roots of heresy that caused their brothers to turn, much like inquisitor lords now. Maybe some formed the first grey knights, a la Garro and Qruze.

 

I for one cannot see Iron Hands as being slaanesh, as I said before slaanesh is all about pelasures of the flesh and they are all about the flesh is weak, so they would be opposote. Maybe nurgle, as the disease would purge out the weak flesh with desease hardened flesh.

 

I still think the "wolf time" should still be included in the space wolf fluff, maybe as a crusade for khorne or something.

 

Barret also suggested that the Lutheran Angels form the basis for the Inquisition. It seems in this universe rather than the Space Marines being a chamber militant for the Inqusition, what we would consider "Inquisitors" operate more as human agents for the Inquisition. That said, I like the idea of the Alpha Legion controlling the Inquisition, and the Lutheran Angels becoming a full Space Marine Chapter, setting out to hunt down the Dark Angels. They might hark back to the original Knights of the Order (they might even be called the Knights of the Order) and would be trying to redeem their honour by "hunting down the Fallen".

 

As said - Iron Hands are Tzeentch, not Slaanesh. Nurgle is Salamanders.

 

heh, how Ironic some friends and IO got involved in doing aomething similair to this awhile ago

 

Well we did place the Salamander as Nurglites, due to Nocturnes Irridiation, but reading aboput the Tzeentchian Iron hands has caused me to think of something different. While that idea is intriguing I can see the Ih taking more of the Plague marine role, with Big Ol' Daddy Nurgle protecting his followers weak flesh, perhaps with the afore-mentioned techno-virus. The only problem is Nurgles more stagnant organic methods do seem to clash with the mechanically advancement mentality of Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands

 

as mentioned the Eye of Terror doesn;t seem quite like the main threat in the MU that it does in reg 40k. Wjhjere could have the Imperium caught betwene Macragge and the Tau pushing from the East, while something comes from the EoT in the west, not to mention Crons and Nids. also to take away from the Power armored dudes for a moment, what would close proximity to the tainrted Ultramar have the Tau, ure they have no or little presence in the warp, but perhaps this could lead to Chaos or Dark Tau

 

There's many, many alternate-heresy possibilities - some of them very good. The idea I have at the moment has nothing to do with radiation, though. The Death Guard in our universe fell just to be free of disease. The Salamanders in this universe fell to save Nocturne. It's a lot more noble, and it shows their connection to their planet.

 

I didn't address it previously but yes, I think the Eye of Terror would perhaps be smaller and less of a threat in this universe. Then again, I imagine Roboute returning to Ultramar and "locking the door", preventing any of the other Legions entry unless they swore allegiance to him. So where else could they go but the Eye of Terror?

 

Not quite sure where I got the Iron Hands/Slaanesh thing from. Must have been an old discussion that has taken root in my head!

Perturabo - After the triumph at Ullanor, The Emperor retires from the crusade. But he doesn't leave alone; he tasks Perturabo and his Legion of Iron Warriors with the fortification of the Imperial Palace on Terra. It is a bitter-sweet time for the Primarch as he has to leave the Great Crusade to his brothers. The only good point is that he will no longer have to work with Dorn. As the years have passed, Dorn's boasting has become more and more wearisome until, when on a tour of a newly built bastion on a newly compliant world accopmanied by Horus and Gulliman, it comes to a head; Dorn turns on Perturabo, belittling his work and vaunting his Fists over the mere garrison troop Iron Warriors. The Iron Warrior Priomarch, incapable of lying, faces his brother and tells him that shoud even the IMperial Fists attack, they would break against the walls as surely as water against adamantium.

Dorn throws himself at Perturabo and they trade blows, the IMperial Fist Primarch smashing his fists into his brothers face before being driven to the floor by hammer blows that would kill any other man. Horus and Guilliman pull the two apart but the damage is done. The bodyguard trops present witness what happens, a poisinous seed sown between the Iron Warriors and the Fists as each Legion blames the other. Sensing the deteriorating situation Guilliman leaves, taking Dorn with him. His jealousy of the Emperor's bestowing the title of 'Warmaster' has eaten away at his once noble soul and his plans for rebellion are already well advanced; seeing the hatred inn Dorn Guilliman makes his move, fanning his brother's hubris and arrogance and convincing him that Perturabo's commission to turn Terra into a fortress is a personal slight by an uncaring father. Dorn is the first to turn to Guilliman's plan, pledging his Legion and his soul.

Konrad Curze - Istvaan V was a disaster for the Emperor's loyal sons. Fully half of the Legions turn traitor, Guilliman purging his gene-sons at Istvaan III and striking the first blow in the larger war at Istvaan V. The Night Lords are one of the loyalsit Legions charged with bringing their rogue brother to heel and they land with the Death Guard and the Thousand Sons, intent on finishing things there and then. BUt the 4 Legions who are supposed to be supporting them turn on in a vile display of trachery. BUt Guilliman doesn't have things all his own way. Curze and his Legion, even in such exposed and crowded terrain, are impossible to pin down. They still take horrendous casualties, but Curze manages to lead out of the ambush site, where they turn and launch a series of hit-and-run attacks to try to save their comrades. The ambush slideds towards a war of attrition, the Death Guard too tenaciuos to be easily defeated and Magnus' Legion using the warp to ravage their enemies' lines. Guilliman changes plan, with all loyalist ships destroyed he evacuates his forces form the planet and strikes for Terra, leaving Curze and his brothers stranded.

That's it so far. I don't know if that's the direction you want to go in, so I'll hang on and cogitate on it some more until see what direction you're going in.

Cracking Heresy, Gromit!

 

GFP

 

-> I definitely like Dorn as being proud and arrogant. I mean, he's always been proud and arrogant (and he's one of my favourite primarchs for it.) but it's interesting to see it pushed that tiny fraction further and having disastrous consequences. That's what the Mirror Universe concept is about, and I applaud you for it! I think definitely that Perturabo would be the Guardian at the Gates, protecting the palace. In our universe Dorn thought gravely and said any defence could be breached, to Perturabo's chargrin. In this universe, I can see Dorn swearing that any defence Perturabo built would fall - that partly ties into my ideas of Perturabo brooding ominously as the palace begins to suffer from the onslaught of Dorn's weapons batteries. Perturabo would also be the one to find the Emperor's body and construct the Golden Throne (Iron Throne?)

 

-> I also agree Dorn would be one of the first to fall to Guilliman. He would help Guilliman to turn the other seven Primarchs, and Guilliman would also use him as a patsy, I think.

 

-> I'm not sure on Istvaan at all thus far, but your ideas are seriously very useful. Thank you! :tu:

 

Regarding Khan: I've thought on this a bit and read the Dark Eldar and Eldar Codeci I have laying around. I agree that Khan or his legion controlling the Webway is a poor idea, as even the Eldar and their dark kin don't fully control it. I think the Harlequins come closest, if any really do. That wasn't really the intent of my two cents though, I sort of envisioned Khan in the Webway striking like lightning (as is the nature of his legion) everywhere in the galaxy, a perpetual thorn in the side of the Imerpium (depending on his numbers after the MU Heresy). Perhaps based in Commorragh, perhaps just on an endless ride through the twisting turns of the Webway, never knowing where they'll end up, but always ready to take skulls and shed blood in Khorne's name wherever their endless hunt takes them.

 

If my Eldar codex is to be believed it is not unheard of for various races to just end up falling through the Webway portals. They are everywhere, some are blocked off and locked away forevermore (like those that used to be on Eldar worlds in what is now the Eye of Terror), but there are hundreds, if not thousands all across the galaxy. In the current universe Harlequins have been known to not only escort Inquisitors through the Webway, but have led them to the Black Library itself. Now, I am not suggesting they do this with Khan and his marines, but at the very least they could "chase" Dark Eldar raiders into the Webway.

 

Granted, to just have Khan hit the throttle on his bike or whatever and shoot on through a portal is something of a flimsy plot device, but I think the whole concept is fairly doable.

 

Hope I've helped.

 

CernunnosX

 

I actually thought the idea of Khan controlling part of the webway was a fantastic idea, I'm just not sure how practical it is. In the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Ahriman managed to enter the webway, but he was stopped from reaching the Black Library after the Craftworld and Dark Eldar joined forces at the behest of the Harlequins.

[Commissar Molotov]

Not a real long post, but Im really liking the ideas here, I need to read it through again just so i can post some in depth ideas. I had a thought that perhaps Ahriman (of the Thousand Sons), discovered a different rubric, one of Daemon slaying or some such, and Magnus gifted him with lordship over 1000 marines to create an Anti-Daemon force ala the Grey Knights. The GW Universe Grey Knights being all psykers, I think that would tie in well.

 

The rubric would be akin to the Shrouding and the Rituals of Detestation that the GKs go through. Which brings me to another thought, would there still be Soul Binding in this universe? Perhaps instead there would be different rituals?

 

And what about the Ad-Mech in this whole business? They made the Legions a viable fighting force, what if Kelbor Hal hadn't fallen?

 

I don't want to necessarily go all-out with all the Pre-Heresy characters, but it might be neat to utilise Ahriman in some fashion. The other way to go with him would be to parallel the fallen in the Dark Angels - perhaps Magnus persecutes him because he's using illegal sorcery and he flees with his cabal. Either could work.

 

I did think that the Sons of Horus would have to be defending the Imperial palace for Horus to be killed. Perhaps taking the SW/DA "rushing to Terra" role, we could have the Word Bearers and the Thousand Sons - perhaps they feud or something? Or alternatively it bonds them together?

[Barret]

As I said to Molly on MSN, I'm really not a fan of the Tzeentchian Iron Hands. It's so...obvious...and I think it overlooks a very large part of the core of the Iron Hands' character. They hate and fear the weak, which is what drives them to technophilia. In madness, I think that that hatred is what would come to the fore, not the symptom of said hate.

 

Thus, I see the Iron Hands spreading across the galaxy like a cancer, sowing cults and rebellions on every world to prepare the way for their apocalyptic Purifications that leave entire worlds as scorched, barren rocks. They hate all life, and use Chaos Undivided as a tool to bring about their insane dream of a galactic extinction. Those foolish mortals that believe the rhetoric of the Iron Fathers, with their warp-fueled Daemonica Protectiva, are simply the last to die, after they have helped the ancient and inhuman Iron Hands destroy and enslave all life upon their world.

 

Those who have felt the strongest touch of Chaos are hulking, insane giants, an unholy fusion of man, machine and daemon, the Obliterators.

 

Alongside the ranting Iron Fathers, the Iron Hands are led across time and space by the might of the Daemonnoughts, the Chaos-elevated sarcophagi that have walked the galaxy since before the Heresy.

 

Little is known of Ferrus Manus, Daemon Primarch of the Iron Hands. It is believed he rules over the unimaginable Iron Spheres within the Maelstrom, insane with rage and grief and hideous to behold. It was his hate of weakness; his disgust for the tolerant doctrines of the Great Crusade; his bitterness over the ascendancy in favour of Fulgrim for Fulgrim's flimsy "perfection" when it was Ferrus Manus who forged the best weapons, trained the best warriors, slew the mightiest foes; and his pride in being master of the machine, of the unliving that drove the Iron Hands to turn against the Emperor. After the collapse of the Heresy and the dispersal of the traitor Legions, Ferrus Manus took his Legion into the Maelstorm, making its unexplored depths their fortress, there to plot revenge on a galaxy that has failed their ideals, especially the weaklings of the Imperium and of the Traitor Legions.

[Commissar Molotov]

A very interesting take, though it perhaps leaves me wondering if we leave Tzeentch underpowered with only the Raven Guard as his servants. That said, of course, Tzeentch thrives off the schemes you don't notice rather than the ones you do... so perhaps it's not so bad!

 

I can see the Iron Hands moving towards Chaos Undivided, then, something akin to the Iron Warriors in our universe (psychologically.) Our IH hate weakness and see the flesh as weak, necessitating bionics. Perhaps these see the soul as weak, or somesuch. I don't know. I don't like them using cults at all, though. I think they wouldn't concern themselves with ordinary fleshlings. I see them as being calculating engineers, using the warp to fuel their creations. The defiler would've been created a lot earlier in this universe, after all.

[flintlocklaser]

I don't want to stick an oar in here just yet, as you guys have something really nice going on! But Mol, you mentioned an "Iron Throne" rather than a Golden one - I don't know if that's just a throwaway line or not, but I think it's wonderfully evocative of the difference between this MU and the 'real' history. By all means keep that, if not amplify on it!

 

Other than that I'll have to read these posts again and think on it a bit. Having said that, I do also like the idea of the White Scars running rampant through the Webway. Perhaps it doesn't have to be as big a thing as him conquering Commoragh - perhaps he and the Stormseers are gifted by Chaos with the ability to breach the Webway from time to time? So every so often the Stormseers of one of his roving Brotherhoods band together, make some fell offering, and force their way into the Webway where the Stormseer's daemonic gifts show them the path (sounds Tzeentchy to me!) they should take.... hours, or years, or milliseconds later, they pour screaming through a Webway portal and lay waste to whatever they find?

 

The other little idea you threw out that I liked was the notion that the Imperium lures/guides the Tyranids towards Macragge. Since you've already got an altered Inquisition-analog, perhaps the MU version of the Ordo Xenos is much more practical and less ideologically motivated than ours is? Aiming the Nids at the Daemon Realm of Ultramar - priming the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon to head for Rynn's World, where he destroys (at enormous cost) an Imperial Fists fortress-world - trading with the Tau and hiring Kroot mercenaries to hassle whoever the hell it is the Tau are near?

 

In any event, keep this up, it's a fascinating project!

 

EDIT: I kept typing and typing - guess I stuck an oar in after all! Sorry!

[Commissar Molotov]

Hey, Flint. I'm glad you're oar-sticking now - it's far better to be giving opinions now rather than when things get too solid that they can't be changed. Plus, you know I value your input.

 

The 'Iron Throne' was a throwaway line, but it's those subtle, minor changes that lead to big ideological shifts that I'm keen to capitalise upon.

 

I also like the ideas you have with the Imperium being that little bit more pragmatic and using aliens to buy themselves time against Chaos. It's certainly interesting. I'm considering that with the Space Marines dominating the Inquisition, they would perhaps create the Ordo Hereticus a lot earlier. Would the Imperium still have the High Lords of Terra? Would Space Marines be included in it? Would it be an entirely Astartes council?

[flintlocklaser]

Glad to throw in my 2 cents! I don't know how much you want the MU Imperium to change, so if I run too far off in some weird direction don't be shy about telling me. Like the thing with the Ordo Xenos and using aliens more openly - the Tyranid thing someone said in here and I can't find it now because I'm in a hurry, but I think it's pretty solid. Having the Orks blow up Rynn's World seemed like a good idea when I typed it, but at the same time it might be me trying a bit too hard for the super-ironic 'mirror event.' The Tau can be taken or left - for that matter, it might be interesting for the MU Imperium to see the Tau more clearly as a potential threat and actually wipe them out on the first encounter instead of leaving them alone to develop spaceflight and pulse rifles!

 

 

 

Meanwhile, I know you said that some of the Legions hadn't had enough of a look-at so far. As someone who loves the Thousand Sons, well... in for a penny, in for a pound:

 

After the Cleansing of Fenris, the Thousand Sons willingly seperate themselves into a thousand tiny Cabals, each consisting of a powerful Librarian and his hand-picked bodyguard. While they still hold periodic conclaves amidst the glowing spires of Prospero (home of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica - who travel on the Black Ships to train here after being soulbound on Terra, as the blinding radiance of the Iron Throne would overwhelm them), the Thousand Sons rarely go to war in large groups anymore. Their value to their Father the Emperor is as it was before the Heresy - foretelling danger, rushing across the Galaxy in small warbands to stamp out the million tiny threats that Chaos poses within the Empire every day. Cultists and foul sorcerers alike have come to dread the sight of their consecrated lapis and gold livery, and the ornate funerary headdresses each wears to honor their fallen Emperor. The battle-brothers of the Thousand Sons are trained so strongly by their commanding Librarians in defending their minds from mystical or Chaotic mind-control, that their foes have come to call them "the Walking Dead."

 

Too much? I love playing with inverting the 'true' history, but I hope I'm not taking it over the top or stepping on any toes. Along those lines, are you going to try and mirror any later events in the 40k/MU timeline - eg, the Badab War, the Age of Apostasy, Guilleman's 13th Blue Crusade?

[Commissar Molotov]

Not too much, though I don't know if I agree with the entire concept (just yet). There's a number of Legions that need a serious look - chief among those would be the White Scars (I'm not a huge fan of the concepts Darrell propogated as they make him seem too Khornate), the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, the Dark Angels... brainstorming is entirely welcome, and I'll be sure to bring you down to the ground.

 

I do like the idea of "the gleaming spires of Prospero", portraying it as somewhere beautiful, but the Thousand Sons are in their own way very sinister... it's almost like the Minority Report. If the Thousand Sons proclaim that you're guilty for something you're going to do, nobody questions it...

 

EDIT: There won't be a "Blue" Crusade, but perhaps there will be further Inter-Legionary Wars. The Badab War would be interesting - I mention that there might be Corsairs that flee and pledge allegiance to one of the Primarchs, potentially. I'd consider an Age of Apostasy-styled conflict if we can make it work, given the influence of the Word Bearers over the Ecclesiarchy. This universe might not have the Sisters of Battle - but the Word Bearers would certainly raise huge armies of Frateris Militia.

 

Oh, and the Tau have probably been wiped out. :)

[flintlocklaser]

Well, I really liked your Thousand Sons/Precrime notion, which is what led me to think of them travelling the Imperium as little 'fire brigades,' squelching rebellion/dissent - and like you said, frequently doing it before it even happens! It seems like they'd fill (to a certain extent) the role that the Hereticus fills in the vanilla 40k world. I also see what you're saying about the difficulty of a true Age of Apostasy in a more rigid, inwardly-focused - and in some ways more 'honest,' at least about its totalitarianism - Imperium. Meanwhile, I'll try and brainstorm some stuff for the Scars and the Death Guard - as much as I love the Dark Angels, I'll probably have to keep my hands off them so I don't wind up trying to either redeem them totally or make them the Secret Good Guys on the Traitor side....

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, I really liked your Thousand Sons/Precrime notion, which is what led me to think of them travelling the Imperium as little 'fire brigades,' squelching rebellion/dissent - and like you said, frequently doing it before it even happens! It seems like they'd fill (to a certain extent) the role that the Hereticus fills in the vanilla 40k world. I also see what you're saying about the difficulty of a true Age of Apostasy in a more rigid, inwardly-focused - and in some ways more 'honest,' at least about its totalitarianism - Imperium. Meanwhile, I'll try and brainstorm some stuff for the Scars and the Death Guard - as much as I love the Dark Angels, I'll probably have to keep my hands off them so I don't wind up trying to either redeem them totally or make them the Secret Good Guys on the Traitor side....

 

Ah, I wasn't being totally clear. I like the juxtaposition of the glittering spires of Prospero being host to something actually quite sinister. Originally I was going to say that Prospero might occupy a somewhat similar role to Ultramar in our universe - that of the "oasis of peace." - Then again, it is peaceful, but perhaps due to the oppression of the Thousand Sons.

 

Looking forward to the results of your brainstorming. Feel free to discuss any of them, really. There are only a few I'm completely set on.

[flintlocklaser]

Ah, I wasn't being totally clear. I like the juxtaposition of the glittering spires of Prospero being host to something actually quite sinister. Originally I was going to say that Prospero might occupy a somewhat similar role to Ultramar in our universe - that of the "oasis of peace." - Then again, it is peaceful, but perhaps due to the oppression of the Thousand Sons.

No, I see what you're saying, and I think it's quite good. It's quiet and peaceful, but it's the brittle peace of unspoken fear. Maybe the sort of paranoid calm you'd have seen in a CIA or KGB office during the height of the Cold War, where any variation from the norm might get your co-workers accusing you of ideological impurity? Beautiful, sterile white streets, citizens basically paralyzed with inner guilt every time a Thousand Sons warband flies in for debreifing?

 

Looking forward to the results of your brainstorming. Feel free to discuss any of them, really. There are only a few I'm completely set on.

 

Well, if the White Scars taking over the webway is a bit too strong, perhaps they just maraud around in normal space? Filling a bit of the role the Alpha Legion has in the 'real' timeline, as the Chaos threat that isn't neatly confined to the Eye of terror (or Ultramar/Pandaemonium)? Not the cultist stuff, obviously - although do you have any Traitor Legion earmarked for this role? (For that matter, do you want a Traitor Legion to have that role at all, or would you rather have the Chaos cults in this world be a more 'organic' occurrence?) But back to the Scars - maybe they raid out of Ultramar, launching hit-and-fade attacks all along the Imperial-Ultramarines border (mirroring the role of the MU World Eaters)? Maybe they're your 'renegade but not Chaos' semi-Corsairs force, and all they really care about is plunder and the next big fight?

 

The Death Guard get the stolid, thankless job of being the Emperor's Hammer. While a marine Chapter has to be used as a scalpel, a full Legion like the Death Guard is more akin to a broadsword or battle axe. They deploy in huge, overwhelming force, with other loyal Legions like the WE and the Night Lords creating the openings necessary for the massive bulk landing craft of the Death Guard to disgorge thousands of Space Marines at a time. While other Legions may act as the thin end of the wedge, the Death Guard provide the unstoppable, overwhelming force that eventually breaks whatever enemy they are fielded against. Hardy even by Space Marine standards, despite their constant diet of heavy assaults and continental-scale seiges, the Death Guard are the largest of the loyalist Legions.

 

And a question that I don't remember seeing addressed yet: are you still positing a split of the loyal Legions into Chapters after the Heresy? Or are you considering keeping them Legion-sized? An interesting (but potentially gimmicky) notion would be that the Loyal legions remain whole, the Emperor's 'Red Right Hand;' however, under the pressures of Chaos the traitor Legions split and re-split into smaller Chapters, with bizzare names and half-misunderstood notions about warfare inherited from the schismatics that abandoned their parent Legion to form these ragged warbands....

 

EDIT: forgot the 'chapter split' question, plus my spelling falls apart this late

[Commissar Molotov]

No, I see what you're saying, and I think it's quite good. It's quiet and peaceful, but it's the brittle peace of unspoken fear. Maybe the sort of paranoid calm you'd have seen in a CIA or KGB office during the height of the Cold War, where any variation from the norm might get your co-workers accusing you of ideological impurity? Beautiful, sterile white streets, citizens basically paralyzed with inner guilt every time a Thousand Sons warband flies in for debreifing?

 

Very much so. Good job!

 

Well, if the White Scars taking over the webway is a bit too strong, perhaps they just maraud around in normal space? Filling a bit of the role the Alpha Legion has in the 'real' timeline, as the Chaos threat that isn't neatly confined to the Eye of terror (or Ultramar/Pandaemonium)? Not the cultist stuff, obviously - although do you have any Traitor Legion earmarked for this role? (For that matter, do you want a Traitor Legion to have that role at all, or would you rather have the Chaos cults in this world be a more 'organic' occurrence?) But back to the Scars - maybe they raid out of Ultramar, launching hit-and-fade attacks all along the Imperial-Ultramarines border (mirroring the role of the MU World Eaters)? Maybe they're your 'renegade but not Chaos' semi-Corsairs force, and all they really care about is plunder and the next big fight?

 

Part of me really, really likes the idea of the White Scars taking over part of the webway. It strikes me as a fantastic idea, and it ties the Eldar up in knots, preventing them from acting to disrupt the affairs of humans. I just wasn't sure if other people would find it too far-fetched. Then again, as I mentioned, in 'our' universe the Thousand Sons led by Ahriman managed to rupture the webway and force their way inside.

 

The Death Guard get the stolid, thankless job of being the Emperor's Hammer. While a marine Chapter has to be used as a scalpel, a full Legion like the Death Guard is more akin to a broadsword or battle axe. They deploy in huge, overwhelming force, with other loyal Legions like the WE and the Night Lords creating the openings necessary for the massive bulk landing craft of the Death Guard to disgorge thousands of Space Marines at a time. While other Legions may act as the thin end of the wedge, the Death Guard provide the unstoppable, overwhelming force that eventually breaks whatever enemy they are fielded against. Hardy even by Space Marine standards, despite their constant diet of heavy assaults and continental-scale seiges, the Death Guard are the largest of the loyalist Legions.

 

I like the idea of the Death Guard being the large, troop-heavy Legion that gets the job done without fuss and without praise. I just don't want them to become the boring Legion.

 

And question that I don't remember seeing addressed yet: are you still positing a split of the loyal Legions into Chapters after the Heresy? Or are you considering keeping them Legion-sized? An interesting (but potentially gimmicky) notion would be that the Loyal legions remain whole, the Emperor's 'Red Right Hand;' however, under the pressures of Chaos the traitor Legions split and re-split into smaller Chapters, with bizzare names and half-misunderstood notions about warfare inherited from the schismatics that abandoned their parent Legion to form these ragged warbands....

 

I've mentioned it a few times obliquely and directly - I like the idea of the Legions splitting because it allows us to explore what might've been. (The Castigators would probably be Emperor's Children descendants - possibly Word Bearers, though.) I think some of the Legions would've split, and others wouldn't. In this universe the edict would not be enforced. I can see the Alpha Legion having 'cells' rather than Chapters. The Word Bearers split to spread the light. The Death Guard likely wouldn't. I mentioned that the Sons of Horus would likely split with the Mournival taking command. Abaddon making the 'Black Guard'... that's not fully formed yet.

 

But equally some of the Loyalist Legions might've split. I see the Ultramarines doing this, the various Lieutenants carving out their own states across Ultramar. It lets us play with ideas - the Mortifactors of this universe would be rather different to ours... :unsure:

[flintlocklaser]

Part of me really, really likes the idea of the White Scars taking over part of the webway. It strikes me as a fantastic idea, and it ties the Eldar up in knots, preventing them from acting to disrupt the affairs of humans. I just wasn't sure if other people would find it too far-fetched. Then again, as I mentioned, in 'our' universe the Thousand Sons led by Ahriman managed to rupture the webway and force their way inside.

Ahh. I thought the webway part was what you didn't like. I actually think that's one of the best ideas that's been presented in the thread, so I think you should definitely run that way. Particularly if the Khan doesn't actually take it over, but just learns how to navigate through it - sort of like the 13th Co. Rune Priests in the old Eye of Terror codex.

 

I like the idea of the Death Guard being the large, troop-heavy Legion that gets the job done without fuss and without praise. I just don't want them to become the boring Legion.

Agreed. I remember some blurb from some book about the old DG fielding a ton of Terminator suits, even by pre-heresy standards. Maybe something to play up that aspect as well? A dreadnaughted Typhon as the oldest living marine, waking from his millenial slumber to ask if the Emperor has returned to us yet? (Somebody's gotta fill Bjorn's adamantite shoe-plates!)

 

I've mentioned it a few times obliquely and directly - I like the idea of the Legions splitting because it allows us to explore what might've been. (The Castigators would probably be Emperor's Children descendants - possibly Word Bearers, though.) I think some of the Legions would've split, and others wouldn't. In this universe the edict would not be enforced. I can see the Alpha Legion having 'cells' rather than Chapters. The Word Bearers split to spread the light. The Death Guard likely wouldn't. I mentioned that the Sons of Horus would likely split with the Mournival taking command. Abaddon making the 'Black Guard'... that's not fully formed yet.

 

But equally some of the Loyalist Legions might've split. I see the Ultramarines doing this, the various Lieutenants carving out their own states across Ultramar. It lets us play with ideas - the Mortifactors of this universe would be rather different to ours... :unsure:

 

This sounds interesting. Presumably the least 'divergence' would be in the names/analagous positions of the chapters formed in the First Schism? Sigismund the Black leads the most frenzied of Dorn's traitor children to form the Dark Templars, devoted to spreading terror across the galaxy in a neverending Dark Crusade? The Wolf Brothers and the Black Guard, full of misshapen monstrosities, strain against their master's leashes to be set loose upon the followers of the Corpse-Emperor. The Flesh Tearers... well, I guess they wouldn't really change all that much, would they?

[Commissar Molotov]

Agreed. I remember some blurb from some book about the old DG fielding a ton of Terminator suits, even by pre-heresy standards. Maybe something to play up that aspect as well? A dreadnaughted Typhon as the oldest living marine, waking from his millenial slumber to ask if the Emperor has returned to us yet? (Somebody's gotta fill Bjorn's adamantite shoe-plates!)

 

I figured it not Typhon, we could perhaps have Lucius the Eternal (think about it!) as a Dreadnought in the Emperor's Children. It fits in with my concept of them being completely stagnant, refusing to adopt new patterns and marks of equipment.

 

This sounds interesting. Presumably the least 'divergence' would be in the names/analagous positions of the chapters formed in the First Schism? Sigismund the Black leads the most frenzied of Dorn's traitor children to form the Dark Templars, devoted to spreading terror across the galaxy in a neverending Dark Crusade? The Wolf Brothers and the Black Guard, full of misshapen monstrosities, strain against their master's leashes to be set loose upon the followers of the Corpse-Emperor. The Flesh Tearers... well, I guess they wouldn't really change all that much, would they?

 

Well, with Dorn dead it seems Sigismund would take over as the master of the Imperial Fists. There would be no 'Templars' - the closest perhaps being the Sons of Horus, who I see occupying a somewhat similar role, especially after becoming the Black Guard.

 

I see the Space Wolves splitting up into a number of "Wolf Packs" after Bjorn the Fell-Handed splits the irrevocably. That means we might be able to tie in things like the "Wolf Blades", the "Wolf Brothers", etc, etc.

 

I wasn't sure about the Raven Guard, but did think that the creations coming from Corax's laboratory would be useful as they fight as raiders, occupying the Huron-esque role you mentioned in your previous post. Black Corsairs? Perhaps as a nickname.

[flintlocklaser]

I figured it not Typhon, we could perhaps have Lucius the Eternal (think about it!) as a Dreadnought in the Emperor's Children. It fits in with my concept of them being completely stagnant, refusing to adopt new patterns and marks of equipment.

 

YES

 

That's too perfect.

 

As for Siggy as the new head of the Imperial Fists, that makes perfect sense as well. I'm heading out of town tomorrow afternoon, so barring some sudden brainstorm before about 2pm EST I guess I'll see what everyone cooks up over the weekend!

 

One last thought - a lot of legions, on both sides, changed livery after the Heresy - are you going to go with that, or keep them in their pre-heresy colors? I could see arguments for both - the Word Bearers change from grey to red, to honor the blood that the Emperor spilt for humanity; on the other hand, the Fallen Angels just seem to make more sense in basic black. The World Eaters might also benefit from keeping their old colors (by which I mean the pre-heresy white and blue), and the Death Guard could go either way - on the one hand, without Nurgle's corroding touch, they could keep their armor pristine in white and green trim; on the other hand, the constant remorseless grind of being the Empire's main shock force might mean they disdain parade-ground fripperies, and the longer they're in the field the more scarred and scuffed their armor becomes, until it (almost!) approaches 'real' Death Guard colors (but without all the goo and ichor).

 

One REAL last thought, and no more edits for the night: Cypher! Wild idea #1 - like the vanilla Cypher pops up here and there but seems to be moving towards Terra - perhaps mirror-Cypher is the uncatchable spectre haunting the Realm of Ultramar, slowly moving closer to Ultramar itself! But why? To kill Guilliman - or to redeem him?

[Commissar Molotov]

YES

 

That's too perfect.

 

Well, that's something sorted then. :)

 

One last thought - a lot of legions, on both sides, changed livery after the Heresy - are you going to go with that, or keep them in their pre-heresy colors? I could see arguments for both - the Word Bearers change from grey to red, to honor the blood that the Emperor spilt for humanity; on the other hand, the Fallen Angels just seem to make more sense in basic black. The World Eaters might also benefit from keeping their old colors (by which I mean the pre-heresy white and blue), and the Death Guard could go either way - on the one hand, without Nurgle's corroding touch, they could keep their armor pristine in white and green trim; on the other hand, the constant remorseless grind of being the Empire's main shock force might mean they disdain parade-ground fripperies, and the longer they're in the field the more scarred and scuffed their armor becomes, until it (almost!) approaches 'real' Death Guard colors (but without all the goo and ichor).

 

I'm not opposed to name changes or colour changes, though they ought to make sense. I do think the Space Wolves would become red-and-brass, as the favoured servants of the Khorne. The Imperial Fists might not stay yellow - but I didn't want to just turn them into pink-and-black goons. I'd like there to be some element of sophistication to them.

 

I think the World Eaters would indeed keep their blue-and-white (I've always thought that scheme looked fantastic.) Thousand Sons would remain red... I'm not sure. It seems to me that the traitors were the ones that changed their colours, in the main. I wouldn't want colour-changes to be too gratuitous, but with justifcation and inspired thinking, it could work.

 

One REAL last thought, and no more edits for the night: Cypher! Wild idea #1 - like the vanilla Cypher pops up here and there but seems to be moving towards Terra - perhaps mirror-Cypher is the uncatchable spectre haunting the Realm of Ultramar, slowly moving closer to Ultramar itself! But why? To kill Guilliman - or to redeem him?

 

Not sure about Cypher, honestly.

 

 

---

 

Other thoughts I had revolved around Sanguinius. It seems people are just blandly assuming that as the 'Angel of Blood' he has to be a Khornate follower. I would like to change that, I want to make the Blood Angels more undivided. If they are Khornate, it's the more martial aspect that they embody. If anything, I see Sanguinius as a Abaddon-esque figure, managing to acquire the Mark of Chaos Ascendant and gaining the favour of all four Gods. I don't know. Unlike Abaddon, though, he is a Daemon Primarch.

[flintlocklaser]

Not sure about Cypher, honestly.

 

Fair enough. I suppose with a loyalist Luther filling the Garro role we have less of an overt mystery for Cypher to be pinned to. I've always liked him in spite of the recent somewhat ham-fisted treatment that GW is giving the nature of the DAs, but he probably doesn't fit this universe as well - or perhaps the office of the Cypher is still an offical part of the Dark Angel hierarchy (frankly this idea was the only thing I really liked in the otherwise plodding Descent of Angels). I see what you're getting at about Sanguinius too - it's quite nice in that it slightly breaks the symmetry between universes in giving Guilliman the Black Legion-esque pocket empire, but reserving the role of Champion of Chaos Ascendant for Sang.

 

(I promised no more edits, but I figured one last post wouldn't hurt, heh heh!)

[Commissar Molotov]

I just find Cypher slightly overplayed, personally. Plus with the loyalist Lutheran Angels, I'm not sure we need a Cypherite figure.

 

I have said repeatedly that I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy novels (as yet - money has precluded it) so what I've picked up as been on this forum. I'm given to understand that Cypher (or a person bearing his name) played a ceremonial role within the Calibanite Knightly Orders? Further information might be useful, especially as I was considering naming the Lutheran loyalists "The Knights of the Order."

 

I'm all for breaking overt symmetry in favour of more interesting connections. Something else I'd like to do is go back to the origins of the Primarchs and examine whether we need to alter any of them, or if we can achieve the desired effect simply by changing actions in the Great Crusade. Barret raised the cogent point that some of the Primarchs were already well on their way to heresy before the heresy actually happened. Brainstorming on that point would be valuable.

 

EDIT:

 

I'd also like it if by the end of the weekend we could start constructing a timeline; The Great Crusade, the Horus Heresy, the Scouring and the Age of the Imperium.

[LordMetalBoxes]

ah I do like the whole Salamanders sacrificing themselves for Nocturne as it fits both with their compasisonate site, and Nurgles "fatherly" tendancies, I might use my Nurglite Iron Hands for my other MU heresy though. Also if your worried table Tzeentchs power being lessen, well being Tzeentch for one thing it is only visiblly lessen. Second, they can be undivided but still have more of a predosipition towards Tzeentch

 

Also yes the obbession people seem to have with Alt-Blood Angels being Khorney irritates m,e a bit,m especially since the won't have the black rage, I am unsure about the Red Thrist but..., sur ethey didn't drink blood but IMo thats just a generally chaoticy thing to do, not just for the blood god. Horus also said Sanguinius would make a better Warmaster, so the whole Sang taking Abbaddons place thing makes sense,

 

Also there us a bit of a possibility of a Dark Angel-Space wolf rivally betwene the thousand sons, and death guard. Because after Russ, Mortartion was Magnuses main opposition of the Council of Nikea

[Commissar Molotov]

ah I do like the whole Salamanders sacrificing themselves for Nocturne as it fits both with their compasisonate site, and Nurgles "fatherly" tendancies, I might use my Nurglite Iron Hands for my other MU heresy though. Also if your worried table Tzeentchs power being lessen, well being Tzeentch for one thing it is only visiblly lessen. Second, they can be undivided but still have more of a predosipition towards Tzeentch

 

Also yes the obbession people seem to have with Alt-Blood Angels being Khorney irritates m,e a bit,m especially since the won't have the black rage, I am unsure about the Red Thrist but..., sur ethey didn't drink blood but IMo thats just a generally chaoticy thing to do, not just for the blood god. Horus also said Sanguinius would make a better Warmaster, so the whole Sang taking Abbaddons place thing makes sense,

 

Also there us a bit of a possibility of a Dark Angel-Space wolf rivally betwene the thousand sons, and death guard. Because after Russ, Mortartion was Magnuses main opposition of the Council of Nikea

 

Thanks for the post.

 

Feel free to write up your own heresy scenario! I'd be interested to read your ideas. I do agree with you (I think I said it in another post) about the "visible" lessening of Tzeentchian power.

 

The quote about Sanguinius becoming Warmaster has spread across the internet so I've had an opportunity to read it, and that was part of my reasoning for having him become a faithful servant of the Chaos powers.

 

Is there any canon on the Council of Nikea? Beyond that in the Thousand Sons IA? Has it been featured in the Horus Heresy series yet?

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

These thoughts have been percolating since last night, and have all been driven by the image and idea of Horus, the Emperor's brightest and finest, fighting in defence of his father.

The siege of Terra. The Imperial Palace is being defended by Horus and his Sons, the Iron Warriors and the World Eaters. Angron has returned recently from Mars where his Legion undertook a final mission to rescue as much war materiel as possible for the coming war, in defiance of Chrom and his newly formed Dark Mechanicus.

In orbit, the Phalanx and its bloated fleet of escorts and battleships breaks through the orbit of Luna, the huge accelerator cannons and plasma vanquishers have been pummelled into quiesence; the Sisters of silence are alone and giving blood for evey inch of their fortress as the traitor Imperial Army units crush the life out of them.

The great gates of the Imperial Palace start to fall, on the third day. The Lion Gate, Eternity Gate... the traitors are made to sacrifice everything to gain ground, but the sheer weight of fire and number of crazed Chaos Astartes tells and the defenders are forced back. Angron and the World Eaters have made sally after sally into the enemies flanks, the Bloody Primarch leading his men, a vast jump-pack powering him into the under-defended flanks of the enemy formation where Brazentooth reaps bloody death. Perturabo strided the bastions as he directs the counter-battery fire, the turbo-lasers and melta-cannons ripping apart Titan and tank. The Iron Warriors plug every breach, the Sons of Horus smashing back advance after advance whilst their silver-armoured brethren rebuild the walls with every piece of the siege-craft their Primarch has instilled in them.

But, finally, it comes to this. Retreat, retreat...the Emepror calls back his diminishing forces to defend the inner walls and corridors, to keep bleeding the enemy white. To buy them the time they need, Horus stands alone on the ruined wall, his voice a clarion call to death and ruin for all those who would dare try to pass him. The newly energised champions of Chaos cannot stand against such fury, nor the swarming hordes of their troops, A mighty warhound Titan is called forward, but Horus is the greatest warrior created by the hand of the God-Emperor and waits not for it to rend him with weapon nor crush him, but darts forwards, under its legs, his sword flashing, the golden Talon of Horus ripping at the warped machinery. Only one imbued with the power of such a father as the Emperor could hope to prevail and , to the horrified wails of the foe, the Titan falls.

The time is nearly right to leave, to regain his Legion; but the warp, flowing and rippling around Terra, is torn asunder as the sacrifice of ten thousand hive-dwellers calls forth a Bloodthirster of unimaginable temper. In full view atop the wall, Horus stands his ground. He rides the blows on his sword and Talon, blows that would destroy armies, cities. He gives ground, only defending. And when he is sure every eye is upon the combat he sweps the Talon in a wide arc, the glittering gold of his father's gift now bathed in the red ichor that bursts from the daemon's shattered chest. Throwing his sword to the ground, Horus stoops, lifts his foe and then hold it above his head, the huge embodiement of Khorne dwarfing even so great a being as the Primarch of Primarchs. Then the Bloodthirster drops, onto Horus knee, its spine shattering with a snap that deafens the surrounding attackers, sending them scurryinh for cover.

He gives them a glance. They're not worth his full attention. Pausing only to retrieve his sword, Horus leaves the wall. His father needs him.

 

Guilliman, having passed the buck to Dorn, doesn't actually fight at Terra. Rather, aghast that Lorgar would attempt to deify the Emperor, he and his Legion are at Calth, where the Word Bearers have been lured.

 

GFP

 

EDIT: removed tautology