An Alternate Heresy

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

Can't hold my own water, so I'm posting again! This time about Sanguinius.

The Blood Angel. I agree with those thinking about him being an undivided Primarch. I reason it thusly...

Slaanesh: The Dark Prince loves Sanguinius for his flawless beauty, held by his followers to be second only to Slaanesh him/herself.

Khorne: The Blood God admires the Blood Lord's martial skills and they way he inspires his troops and followers to ever greater heights of bloody slaughter.

Tzeentch: The Lord of Fates holds the Noblest Savage as the epitome of a changebringer. Mutants become beautiful killers, those living become dead, order becomes disorder. The Blood Angels' Librarians are made supremely powerful by Tzeentc's favour.

Nurgle: This one is a bit more difficult. I imagine Sanguinius has some powerful mental issue; maybe depressed by how the Emperor's vision was torn apart, or guilty that he turned on his brothers. It could even be that he fears that he cannot ever reach the heights of perfection he craves.

 

How about a schism in the Alpha Legion? Maybe Omegon falls to Chaos whilst Alpharius stays loyal; or one or other is taken a la Fulgrim, allowing a daemon to posess his flesh because he is trying to hide from some crime or sin he committed against his twin?

 

I'm not sure how solid the idea for The Khan is, but how about having him as something of a Nighthuanter figure? He sets himself up as the arbiter of justice, not amongst the population as a whole but just the wildest tribesmen. When he leaves Mundus Planus his Legion starts to fill with utter savages which leads to the debasement of the Legion and its ultimate fall? Maybe he has the dark prophecies and sees only the darkest path, unconciously working to make it a reality. Then, rather than allowing himself to be killed by an assassin, how about he comes across an open web-gate, and just walks away. Maybe finding himself in Commorragh, he starts a One Man WarTM, before realising he's taken on far more than he can chew and escapes into the webway. Without a Legion behind him that becomes a lot less scary a proposition. He can then be a wondering figure, bringing perverted 'justice' to whichever world he finds an open gate to.

 

Taa-daa! Utter crap, I imagine; but hopefully food for thought.

Time to get funkeh. :P

 

GFP

[Lord Kharloth]

EDITED

[Commissar Molotov]

These thoughts have been percolating since last night, and have all been driven by the image and idea of Horus, the Emperor's brightest and finest, fighting in defence of his father.

The siege of Terra. The Imperial Palace is being defended by Horus and his Sons, the Iron Warriors and the World Eaters. Angron has returned recently from Mars where his Legion undertook a final mission to rescue as much war materiel as possible for the coming war, in defiance of Chrom and his newly formed Dark Mechanicus.

In orbit, the Phalanx and its bloated fleet of escorts and battleships breaks through the orbit of Luna, the huge accelerator cannons and plasma vanquishers have been pummelled into quiesence; the Sisters of silence are alone and giving blood for evey inch of their fortress as the traitor Imperial Army units crush the life out of them.

The great gates of the Imperial Palace start to fall, on the third day. The Lion Gate, Eternity Gate... the traitors are made to sacrifice everything to gain ground, but the sheer weight of fire and number of crazed Chaos Astartes tells and the defenders are forced back. Angron and the World Eaters have made sally after sally into the enemies flanks, the Bloody Primarch leading his men, a vast jump-pack powering him into the under-defended flanks of the enemy formation where Brazentooth reaps bloody death. Perturabo strided the bastions as he directs the counter-battery fire, the turbo-lasers and melta-cannons ripping apart Titan and tank. The Iron Warriors plug every breach, the Sons of Horus smashing back advance after advance whilst their silver-armoured brethren rebuild the walls with every piece of the siege-craft their Primarch has instilled in them.

But, finally, it comes to this. Retreat, retreat...the Emepror calls back his diminishing forces to defend the inner walls and corridors, to keep bleeding the enemy white. To buy them the time they need, Horus stands alone on the ruined wall, his voice a clarion call to death and ruin for all those who would dare try to pass him. The newly energised champions of Chaos cannot stand against such fury, nor the swarming hordes of their troops, A mighty warhound Titan is called forward, but Horus is the greatest warrior created by the hand of the God-Emperor and waits not for it to rend him with weapon nor crush him, but darts forwards, under its legs, his sword flashing, the golden Talon of Horus ripping at the warped machinery. Only one imbued with the power of such a father as the Emperor could hope to prevail and , to the horrified wails of the foe, the Titan falls.

The time is nearly right to leave, to regain his Legion; but the warp, flowing and rippling around Terra, is torn asunder as the sacrifice of ten thousand hive-dwellers calls forth a Bloodthirster of unimaginable temper. In full view atop the wall, Horus stands his ground. He rides the blows on his sword and Talon, blows that would destroy armies, cities. He gives ground, only defending. And when he is sure every eye is upon the combat he sweps the Talon in a wide arc, the glittering gold of his father's gift now bathed in the red ichor that bursts from the daemon's shattered chest. Throwing his sword to the ground, Horus stoops, lifts his foe and then hold it above his head, the huge embodiement of Khorne dwarfing even so great a being as the Primarch of Primarchs. Then the Bloodthirster drops, onto Horus knee, its spine shattering with a snap that deafens the surrounding attackers, sending them scurryinh for cover.

He gives them a glance. They're not worth his full attention. Pausing only to retrieve his sword, Horus leaves the wall. His father needs him.

 

Guilliman, having passed the buck to Dorn, doesn't actually fight at Terra. Rather, aghast that Lorgar would attempt to deify the Emperor, he and his Legion are at Calth, where the Word Bearers have been lured.

 

GFP

 

EDIT: removed tautology

 

GFP - In our universe Horus is depicted as using Talon and Mace - though I like the idea of him using Talon and Sword in the defence of Terra. One thought I had was that the Emperor gifted him with his sword - it's the weapon that pierced Dorn's armour, and his Legion keep it as their most prized relic.

 

I hadn't considered the World Eaters defending Terra, but it could work. I think I suggested the Iron Warriors, Death Guard and Sons of Horus. Swapping the Death Guard and the World Eaters could certainly work. Having the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers rushing to Terra and forcing Dorn's hand could be good. Alternatively, Thousand Sons and Death Guard, with the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion fighting the Ultramarines.

 

I don't know much about Mechanicum, so if people call fill me in on the Dark Mechanicus, that would help me.

 

I'm also not sure what role the Sisters of Silence had, so information on that is useful.

 

I'm not totally sure about Horus playing too much of a Sanguinius role - breaking the Bloodthirster's back is a little much, I think, if only because we're verging on parody rather than homage. I do love the scene-setting, though - having the Iron Warriors defending the breaches and repairing what they can is a great thing.

 

Can't hold my own water, so I'm posting again! This time about Sanguinius.

The Blood Angel. I agree with those thinking about him being an undivided Primarch. I reason it thusly...

Slaanesh: The Dark Prince loves Sanguinius for his flawless beauty, held by his followers to be second only to Slaanesh him/herself.

Khorne: The Blood God admires the Blood Lord's martial skills and they way he inspires his troops and followers to ever greater heights of bloody slaughter.

Tzeentch: The Lord of Fates holds the Noblest Savage as the epitome of a changebringer. Mutants become beautiful killers, those living become dead, order becomes disorder. The Blood Angels' Librarians are made supremely powerful by Tzeentc's favour.

Nurgle: This one is a bit more difficult. I imagine Sanguinius has some powerful mental issue; maybe depressed by how the Emperor's vision was torn apart, or guilty that he turned on his brothers. It could even be that he fears that he cannot ever reach the heights of perfection he craves.

 

How about a schism in the Alpha Legion? Maybe Omegon falls to Chaos whilst Alpharius stays loyal; or one or other is taken a la Fulgrim, allowing a daemon to posess his flesh because he is trying to hide from some crime or sin he committed against his twin?

 

I'm not sure how solid the idea for The Khan is, but how about having him as something of a Nighthuanter figure? He sets himself up as the arbiter of justice, not amongst the population as a whole but just the wildest tribesmen. When he leaves Mundus Planus his Legion starts to fill with utter savages which leads to the debasement of the Legion and its ultimate fall? Maybe he has the dark prophecies and sees only the darkest path, unconciously working to make it a reality. Then, rather than allowing himself to be killed by an assassin, how about he comes across an open web-gate, and just walks away. Maybe finding himself in Commorragh, he starts a One Man WarTM, before realising he's taken on far more than he can chew and escapes into the webway. Without a Legion behind him that becomes a lot less scary a proposition. He can then be a wondering figure, bringing perverted 'justice' to whichever world he finds an open gate to.

 

Taa-daa! Utter crap, I imagine; but hopefully food for thought.

Time to get funkeh. :)

 

GFP

 

Not utter crap, no. Your thoughts on Sanguinius in his undivided aspect are pretty good, I think.

 

With regards to the Alpha Legion, I don't want anything like a schism. Especially as we have the split in the Dark Angels. What I'd like is to use the twin Primarchs in a clever way. I think Guilliman killing "Alpharius" (as he did in our universe) only for the real(?) Alpharius to rise resurgent and mire the Ultramarines would be good. Perhaps the Ultramarines couldn't reinforce the assault on Holy Terra thanks to the Alpha Legion, and this has driven a wedge between the Ultramarines and the other traitor Legions? They suffered the brunt of the Loyalists' power whilst the Ultramarines were on the eastern fringes doing nothing... (sound familiar? ;))

 

Not sure on your ideas regarding Khan, though. I think we could perhaps have the Stormseers being corrupted, some sort of feral, shamanistic magic corrupting them. The Khan surrounds himself with a kabal of Seers that compete for his favour and lead his forces on vicious raids.

 

 

Ok here is how i think the mirror could legions would be organized (fighting style, what gods they worship, etc)...

 

Kharloth - I honestly don't mean this is to sound aggressive or negative, but I'm not sure whether you're posting what you would like to see, or interacting with the other posts in this thread. Some of the ideas (Slaneeshi Imperial Fists, Nurglite Salamanders) would seem to stem from this thread, but other concepts (Fenris as a daemonworld, apparently undivided Space Wolves, Khornate White Scars, a still-living Rogal Dorn) just seem chucked in.

 

If you're just posting your ideas, I have to ask that you edit your post and place it in the 'If the Loyalists Became Traitors' thread - it's designed for people to place their ideas. Or consider creating your own MU thread to follow your ideas to conclusion.

 

I have to ask - and this goes to others, too! - please don't just throw up lists of concepts, as it doesn't help me see if you're interacting with the ideas of others. Try to give me the reasoning behind your concepts, or I can't really use them. This thread isn't a wishlist, but an attempt to work towards a conclusion. :)

[ToyShip]

I don't want to necessarily go all-out with all the Pre-Heresy characters, but it might be neat to utilise Ahriman in some fashion. The other way to go with him would be to parallel the fallen in the Dark Angels - perhaps Magnus persecutes him because he's using illegal sorcery and he flees with his cabal. Either could work.

 

I like the thought of them as a paralell to the Dark Angels in GW's uni, the illegal sorcery bit is particularly cool, or perhaps we could bring it more "modern" and have Ahriman predicted to fall inot heresy or somesuch, just like Minority Report, so he flees, causing all kinds of mayhem, and the sort of manhunt that evokes the hunt for Cypher. Maybe he would have accomplices, therefore providing more "fallen". Just a thought.

 

[i did think that the Sons of Horus would have to be defending the Imperial palace for Horus to be killed. Perhaps taking the SW/DA "rushing to Terra" role, we could have the Word Bearers and the Thousand Sons - perhaps they feud or something? Or alternatively it bonds them together?

 

That is interesting, perhaps the Word Bearers, being as zealous as they are dont believe in psykers or their uses Pre-Heresy, and come to blows with the Thousand Sons, sort of a "The Sorceror and the Zealot" sort of thing instead of the Wolf and the Lion.

 

Mid Heresy, the two, being tasked elsewhwhere (to assault the Space Wolves?), would rush to Terra, fighting the whole way against part of one of the Legions sent to delay them and reinforce the Wolves, thereby re-igniting their brotherhood.

 

And after the Heresy, Lorgar would see the need for the Minority Report measures that Magnus advocates, and they would become close associates in the dark days that follow.

 

My two cents for now, more later,

Toyship

[Commissar Molotov]

...have Ahriman predicted to fall inot heresy or somesuch, just like Minority Report, so he flees, causing all kinds of mayhem, and the sort of manhunt that evokes the hunt for Cypher. Maybe he would have accomplices, therefore providing more "fallen". Just a thought.

 

Interesting concept. Perhaps Ahriman and his cabal can invoke some sort of spell to foul the precognitive abilities of the Thousand Sons' Librarians, preventing them from simply pre-empting his moves and apprehending him. We could use Ahriman as some sort of a Cypherite figure, with ambiguous motives who might be working to benefit the Imperium.

[ToyShip]

Interesting concept. Perhaps Ahriman and his cabal can invoke some sort of spell to foul the precognitive abilities of the Thousand Sons' Librarians, preventing them from simply pre-empting his moves and apprehending him. We could use Ahriman as some sort of a Cypherite figure, with ambiguous motives who might be working to benefit the Imperium.

 

Excellent! That would definitly make it more of a challenge for the Thousand Sons, only being able to see bits and pieces with their Psychic abilities and what have you.

 

A quick thougt on the Mechanicus, just a small thing, perhaps instead of A.I. being outlawed, maybe it is used, however sparingly, to help keep the realm of Ultramar in check?

[c-wrex]

I don't know, in the case of alternates, as some of my fellow forum-ites may recall, I have often compared the Salamanders Legion to the Night Lords as natural opposites. As to what this could mean for an alternate heresy, consider what the two legions are most known for: going all out to protect the citizens of the imperium and using terror and fear to conquer them, respectively. So, it doesn't seem such a stretch to me to see the Night Haunter, concerned as he was with upholding and preserving life, being forced to intervene in the mad scorched earth campaigns of an insane Vulkan.

[Favoured of the Emperor]

So what have we got for definate now? I'll try and summarize, please shout if I miss anything:

 

Dark Angels- Half the legion, led by the lion, turn to chaos, and those led by luther make their own chapter/become the inquisition, hunting out roots that made their brothers fall

 

Emperors Children- Reached perfection during the heresy, use no new technology, keeping their greatest heroes incarcerated as dreadnoughts. What happenned to Fulgrim? Would he be killed as a parallel to the "real universe" or not?

 

Iron Warriors- After Ullanor, ordered to build the defences of terra. One of the chapters defending terra at the final battle

 

White Scars- Marauding bikers (post heresy) Have they taken over the Webway?

 

Space Wolves- lose the Council of Nikea, and Fenris razed to the ground by the Thousand sons. Fell to the worship of khorne, and painted their armour red and bronze in their lords name.

 

Imperial Fists - Dorn's honour was slighted by not being chosen to build terra's defences, and this led to him being the first to turn to guilliman's side (a la Fulgrim in "real" universe) Therefore, he would be present at Isstvaan III and V. Present at the final battle for terra, Maybe killed or kills Perturabo?

 

Night Lords - Use terror tactics and large numbers of criminals to fight their battles post heresy Present at Isstvaan V?

 

Blood Angels- Sanquinus becomes the champion of chaos ascendant, leading the Red Crusades onto the imperium. Some gett affected by a red thirst, seeking to spill blood in khornes name, although the legion is largely undivided.

 

Iron Hands - Turn to Tzeentch or Slaanesh? This is not clear in the thread

 

World Eaters- They take the Emperors wanrings and stop using the chem-implants. Their combat skill coupled with shock attacks make them a force to be reckoned with, unpredictable and powerful. Present at Isstvan V?

 

Ultramarines - Guilliman falls to chaos, saddenned by not being chsen as warmaster, taking this as a slight to his honour and starts plotting his fathers downfall. Post-heresy, he flees to Ultramar, which turns into a daemon realm. His legion slpits into smaller forces, and he writes the codex chaotica, a tactica on summon ing daemons and the like.

 

Death Guard- Present at Isstvaan v?

 

Thousand Sons- Win the council of Nikea, and opposed by Russ. Razes Fenris to the ground during the heresy.

 

Luna Wolves- Horus killed during the Heresy. After, the Legion splits inot four(?) chapters, each one led by a member of the mournival. All chapter masters answer to the mournival.

 

Word Bearers- Establish the Church after the heresy. Found the inquisition, or the ordos, and the fraternis militia.

 

Salamanders- Nocturne is threatened by a plague, and the Salamanders sacrifice themselves to Nurgle to save their planet, and are now corrupted warriors.

 

Raven Guard- Not Much has been suggested. Maybe one of the traitors at Isstvaan V? The legion took a haevy toll during the heresy, and to replenish their troops, he struck a bargain with the gods and his legion became heavily mutated, and the worst are now known as the weregeld.

 

Alpha Legion - Not Much has been suggested about them.

 

 

FOE

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Although I like the idea of Horus sacrificing himself, fighting the Bloodthirster might be better left to Angron, so instead of the White Scars leading lightning attacks and eventually re-capturing the Lion's Gate spaceport, it could be the World Eaters.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

I was going to say that having the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors fighting on Terra might mean there are two Legions who are too similar. However, in the actual Heresy, the White Scars and Blood Angels are both assault oriented so this could work with a different slant on the outcome of the siege.

Rather than trying to take the fight to the enemy as the main strategy, maybe the loyalists are content to sit on the battlements soaking up the punishment. Horus would lead his men in 'firefightnig' strikes, defending breachs, delaying advances with ambushes and the like. With the DG and IW, they might be happier to take it all on the chin, secure in the knowledge that they can give better than they get.

The mood at the end of the siege might be very different. Rather than getting so deep into the Imperial Palace, maybe the defence is so tenacious that they only just take the outer walls and barely make any headway from their because the defence is too well fought? This would make Dor dropping the shields on Phalanx moe understandable (if having this motive more apparent is what you want), as he knows that loyalist reinforcements will arrive soon and wants th fighting over. Rather than having been pushed to the very edge of desperation maybe the survivors feel more triumohant; the full might of the traitors' armies couldn't take the heart of the Imperium and even though the Emperor has had to be interred in the Iron Throne, the mood is bombastic with the surviving Primatrchs and Astartes confident that Chaos cannot stand before them. This could lead to the Scourging starting off with loyalist victory after victory until they become over-confident and suddenly it all goes wrong. Maybe they try to take Ultramar and lose several Primarchs in one go? This might bring the change of attitude to one that tries to fortify everything and bunkers in.

 

My post on Horus. I had really intended for him to take on the whole 'Sanguinius on Terra' role. I'm sure that he kills a Bloodthirster by breaking its spine (like I wrote). IIRC, it was the 'thirster that wounded him so grieviously earlier on when the BA were fighting in a daemon infested system (in the real pre-heresy crusade). As for Horus having a mace, my bad. :P I thought I'd seen pictures of him with one but couldn't remember. I think it would be really cool to have Horus in the spotlight at some point: doing something incredibly brave and difficult, holding the enemies at bay single-handed or something.

 

GFP

[Commissar Molotov]

I don't know, in the case of alternates, as some of my fellow forum-ites may recall, I have often compared the Salamanders Legion to the Night Lords as natural opposites. As to what this could mean for an alternate heresy, consider what the two legions are most known for: going all out to protect the citizens of the imperium and using terror and fear to conquer them, respectively. So, it doesn't seem such a stretch to me to see the Night Haunter, concerned as he was with upholding and preserving life, being forced to intervene in the mad scorched earth campaigns of an insane Vulkan.

 

Well, this idea isn't just about "opposites". We're not trying to explore binary opposition, but rather a more sophisticated take on what might've happened. I can see how you oppose the Salamanders and the Night Lords, but in this universe the Salamanders' love for their homeworld is what damns them. They fall to protect their homeworld - and that falls through utterly. After that they have nothing left to live for.

 

With regards to Curze, we just need to shift the theme slightly - rather than "criminals in power armour", we're looking at the idea of becoming a Space Marine being a new life, a new opportunity to redeem themselves and prove the inner nobility and virtue of man. I don't want the Night Lords to become Batman - but there's some decent stuff to be said, I guess.

 

So what have we got for definate now? I'll try and summarize, please shout if I miss anything:

 

Decent for the most part, but we're still collecting ideas. I'll keep the first post updated when we decide further.

 

I'm not sure the battle for Istvaan needs to be at Istvaan.

 

There was a planet of Ultramar that the Word Bearers cleansed in our world, right? Perhaps the Ultramarines weeded out their loyalist elements there without the rest of the Imperium knowing. That might be interesting.

 

Although I like the idea of Horus sacrificing himself, fighting the Bloodthirster might be better left to Angron, so instead of the White Scars leading lightning attacks and eventually re-capturing the Lion's Gate spaceport, it could be the World Eaters.

 

Possibly. Does there need to be 'a bloodthirster' killed by 'a primarch' on the walls of the palace? It just seems like thoughtless tick-boxing, just to say we've covered all the elements of the heresy.

 

 

I was going to say that having the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors fighting on Terra might mean there are two Legions who are too similar. However, in the actual Heresy, the White Scars and Blood Angels are both assault oriented so this could work with a different slant on the outcome of the siege.

Rather than trying to take the fight to the enemy as the main strategy, maybe the loyalists are content to sit on the battlements soaking up the punishment. Horus would lead his men in 'firefightnig' strikes, defending breachs, delaying advances with ambushes and the like. With the DG and IW, they might be happier to take it all on the chin, secure in the knowledge that they can give better than they get.

The mood at the end of the siege might be very different. Rather than getting so deep into the Imperial Palace, maybe the defence is so tenacious that they only just take the outer walls and barely make any headway from their because the defence is too well fought? This would make Dor dropping the shields on Phalanx moe understandable (if having this motive more apparent is what you want), as he knows that loyalist reinforcements will arrive soon and wants th fighting over. Rather than having been pushed to the very edge of desperation maybe the survivors feel more triumohant; the full might of the traitors' armies couldn't take the heart of the Imperium and even though the Emperor has had to be interred in the Iron Throne, the mood is bombastic with the surviving Primatrchs and Astartes confident that Chaos cannot stand before them. This could lead to the Scourging starting off with loyalist victory after victory until they become over-confident and suddenly it all goes wrong. Maybe they try to take Ultramar and lose several Primarchs in one go? This might bring the change of attitude to one that tries to fortify everything and bunkers in.

 

I like the idea of making the battle for the palace a rather different one; it's an interesting concept. I also somewhat like your ideas on the scourging, which could be very interesting indeed. I'll have to give it some thoughts, and then I'll compile the timeline as we have it in the first post.

 

Thanks for the ideas thus far, people! :P

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Possibly. Does there need to be 'a bloodthirster' killed by 'a primarch' on the walls of the palace? It just seems like thoughtless tick-boxing, just to say we've covered all the elements of the heresy.

 

Well, something's got to happen to Ka'Banda - unless you want to give him a big role after the Heresy? :tu:

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, something's got to happen to Ka'Banda - unless you want to give him a big role after the Heresy? :lol:

 

Why? Explain your thought processes. Why is it so important we include Ka'Banda? From another point of view it's unfair considering that we don't see three other prominent Greater Daemons... It just seems to be trying to hard. I'm not opposed to 'a primarch' fighting such a creature (though I am opposed to it breaking its back) - I'm just saying that I object to people thoughtlessly tickboxing. The idea that we HAVE to include Davin, we HAVE to include Istvaan, we HAVE to have a Dropsite Massacre, so on and so forth. If they benefit us, then great. Otherwise, it just seems thoughtless.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

I'll admit to being a bit confused as to what the direction is, after the last few posts. I had thought that this was going to be a reversal of heretics/loyalists with a subtle twist on what happened to each Legion. So Guilliman' Ultramar becomes a sink of Chaos rather than a bastion of good, Angron learns to control the psych-implants rather than them controlling him, Sanguinius the perfect destroyer of right and innocence not its embodiement.

Now it seems that everything is up for grabs with whole chunks being amended, added or deleted. Please don't think that I'm trying to censure you or say you're wrong to do this, I'm not and its as good an idea as I've see, but obviuosly I've got the wrong end of the psyber-monkey. Now, fair enough, not having Horus and Ka'Banda meet before the Siege of Terra seems like just ticking a box, but its a big moment during the fighting that shows Chaos that the fight is on and the defenders that a god and his demi-god sons are truly fighting with them.

I might leave this to settle a bit before I post again, so that I can see how you want this to pan out. Hopefully, then, I'll get in with the spirit of the endeavour.

Bon Chance, mes amis!

 

GFP

[Commissar Molotov]

It's a reversal in the sense that all the loyalists become heretics. It's not a blind, thoughtless reversal in the sense that we don't HAVE to have an "Istvaan Dropsite Massacre." We don't HAVE to have a section of a legion turning to Chaos and destroying a homeworld and having that Chapter spend the next ten thousand years chasing the fallen. (But if they contribute, and we can say something useful with them, I'm not averse to them.)

 

I'm not sure how clear I can make it. I'm after a reversal, but a sophisticated one, not just plugging the gaps blandly. Otherwise I might steal a copy of False Gods or copy the lexicanium article on the Horus Heresy and do a 'find-and-replace', changing every instance of 'Horus' to 'Guilliman'. That's not what this project is about, as that would be a bland waste of time.

 

As I said, I'm not opposed to there being Ka'Banda assailing the gates of the Imperial Palace. I am opposed to a Primarch casually breaking his back to avenge an earlier combat where his legs were shattered. It's just thoughtless, and I'm not after a bland find-and-replace reversal.

 

When Primarch A performing Primarch B's actions casts an interesting light on things, I like it. Some of your suggestions have been superb in that light. When Primarch A performing Primarch B's actions has no appreciable difference, that's when I start to get concerned.

[Favoured of the Emperor]

I agree, not everything that happenned in the Heresy in the current setting has to happen in alternates. But some things have to be included, like the Battle for Terra. For example, in the normal universe, fulgrim is the first to openly turn to horus (discounting the Word Bearers), and if it was a exact parody of it, Ferrus Manus would take this role, but this would be somewhat bland. Another thing is that Isstvaan and its altresy equivalent shoudlnt be just reversed, so its 6 loyal legions versus 3 traitors, and the battle for terra, so it isnt the imperial fists, blood angels and white scars assualting most of the loyalists. You don't have to have everything fulfilled, so you dont have to have pink and black imperial fists, and someone doesnt have to break a bloddthirsters back,.

 

 

There was a planet of Ultramar that the Word Bearers cleansed in our world, right? Perhaps the Ultramarines weeded out their loyalist elements there without the rest of the Imperium knowing. That might be interesting.

 

The word bearers were sent by the warmaster to take the ultramarines out of the heresy. It is covered in the rather disappointing book Battle for The Abyss, but it gets the point over.

 

I was about to suggest something like this, but maybe not a straight reversal to ultramarines taking out the word bearers, but maybe something else. The Luna Wolves were feared during pre heresy, maybe the imperial fists (the first chapter to turn in the altresy) taking them out, or stalling them , as said in the first HH book "The Luna Wolves are the unstoppable force to the Imperial Fists imovable object".

 

FOE

[ToyShip]

The Sorceror and the Zealot

"We don't choose the things we believe in; they choose us."

—Lorgar

 

Towards the end of the Great Crusade, Warmaster Horus tasked the Thousand Sons, led by Magnus the Sorceror, to assist the Word Bears of the zealot, Lorgar. The rivalry between these two brothers was legendary, their beliefs on Psykers and the divinity of the Emperor always at odds. At one point the two had even come to blows over their differences, with Magnus defeating Lorgar in a brawl, only by using his formidable mental powers to knock the golden-skinned Primarch unconcious.

 

When Lorgar came-to, Magnus had fled, and the Primarch of the Word Bearers was furious, stating that Magnus had cheated.

The two fought alongside each other for many years, their rivalry serving to make them even more effective in combat, a fact which the Warmaster knew would happen, no doubt. When the Emperor declared that the Space Wolves would be cleansed for their beliefs(?), the two Legions were chosen to undertake this venture. (Reasoning: The Thousand Sons are described as having some sort of calamity upon their founding, and as such, they were never a large Legion. So they would really be supporting the Word Bearers.)

 

The Cleansing of Fenris, as it came to be known later, was a short, extremely bloody affair, with the Fang being subjugated in under a week. Leman Russ, and much of his Legion escaped, however, and to this day plague the Imperium.

Upon the final destruction of Fenris by Exterminatus, the Zealot and the Sorceror recieved communique that a far greater heresy had begun, and that Terra, Cradle of Mankind, was under siege. They embarked with their Legions, and the attached unit of Adeptus Custodes, and translated into the Warp, where they became becalmed for weeks. When the storms finally abated, Magnus was stricken by a vision of the Emperor being slain by Rogal Dorn. He related this news to Lorgar, and they both were stricken with grief. They arrived on Terra weeks after the Siege had been deterred, the Emperor already interred on his Iron Throne.

 

A great council was declared, one where the surviving Primarchs and the High Lords of Terra were to decide the fate of the Imperium, and its still loyal Legions. What was said can be found elsewhere, as can the desicions about the Legions, but what Magnus proposed in this council, has determined much of the way the Imperium is now. He proposes the Precognisists, a large choir of psykers who,with schooling by his numerous Sorceror-Librarians would be able to predict heresy. Lorgar advocates Magnus' ideas, lending his oratorical strengths to the Precognition movement's cause, and the two convinvce their brothers of the worth of such ideas.

++++

Just a little something I wipped up, to explain the Minority Report ideas Mol has espoused, along with some of the ideas about the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers that have been discussed. It is by no means expansive, as it doesnt explain the Space Wolves heresy, among other things, such as Ahriman's heresy later in history. Of course it would be neat to expand the Council part, adding in some politics and the like, as I think such things would be all over such a controversial subject. Hopefull this can provide a template of what happens with the Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, and Space Wolves, Pre, Mid, and Post heresy.

 

Hope we can use this,

Toyship

[argle]

Just a thought on why Nurgle would favor the BA Primarch. If I recall correctly there's a zombie plague wandering around the WH40k universe that hasn't been touched on recently by GW - maybe in this universe the BA are spreading a Vampiric version - ravaging planets and leaving hordes of diseased blood hungry savages in their wake. Nurgly, but also (more or less) pretty. Kind of a "the torment he spreads not even in death is there succor".

[Marshal Rohr]

The Daemon at the Palace doesn't really need to be included. It is more of the buildup to make Sanguinius appear so amazing and then die. It would be cool to see a precursor fight between the two primarchs who would duel on the Battle Barge and end in stalemate. That would be both new and interesting and would come directly as a cross over.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Hi all. Great ideas being thrown around here.

A brief note, slightly pressed for time.

I like the idea of the dropsite massacres still occurring and the loyalists still being massacred. Since we have Magnus the Red remaining loyal, and his sorcery being accepted, I think it would be very appropriate to have the Massacres be at least partially his fault.

It was proposed earlier in the thread that Magnus could have crushed the traitors in a reverse of the dropsite massacres, his psychic prescience warning the loyalists of the incoming ambuscade and enabling to beat back the traitors. I would propose instead that Magnus was fed a false vision by the Ruinous Powers and did not see the trap coming.

The reason for this is that I feel it keeps with the standard 40Kverse Magnus. Magnus is/was an incredibly proud primarch, firmly believing that he could master all knowledge and he could control the powers of the warp. This damned his legion in regular 40Kverse.

Why not keep the thread of hubris in his character in the MU verse being cooked up here? It is simply an idea. I will try to expand on it when I have more time.

Any comments are more than welcome

 

EDIT: C. Molotov-I like your paranoid police keeping T-sons. I propose that keeping with that, the Dropsite Massacres are one event that inspire Magnus to do exactly that. Determined to never again allow such a slip to happen, he pushes the boundaries of the T-sons scrying arts. He vows they will never again be caught unawares or unprepared.

 

P.S.-If the dropsite massacres are already solidified one way or the other in this mirrorverse, disregard this post. :)