10th company tactica

[Khorneeq]

Here are the rules which can be useful.

BRB p. 95: Deep Strike rules

...Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed.

BRB p. 66: Transport Vehicle rules (in general, so it includes Open-topped transports if I am reading it right)

...Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn.

Open-topped feature allows all models to fire from a vehicle and to charge after a vehicle have moved. BRB p. 70

...Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passangers in an open-topped vehicle may fire...The passangers of open-topped vehicle may assult, even if the vehicle has moved before their disembarkation.

And I may add that I diagree with multiple pinnig test on a single squad, but thats another story...

Hope it's clear enough now. :ph34r:

[greatcrusade08]

I diagree with multiple pinning test on a single squad, but thats another story...

I added a sidenote to the ambiguety of this rule, but ultimately went with the majority decision from the discussion on the topic.

 

Here are the rules which can be useful.

BRB p. 95: Deep Strike rules

...Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed.

BRB p. 66: Transport Vehicle rules (in general, so it includes Open-topped transports if I am reading it right)

...Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn.

Open-topped feature allows all models to fire from a vehicle and to charge after a vehicle have moved. BRB p. 70

...Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passangers in an open-topped vehicle may fire...The passangers of open-topped vehicle may assult, even if the vehicle has moved before their disembarkation.

 

Hope it's clear enough now. :)

 

Actually my head is spinning. The two quotes seem to contradict one another, the first says guys in transports cannot fire after deepstrike but does not specifically mention open-topped.

The second says all open topped transports can fire even though the transport has moved, but does not mention cruising speed....

 

I think this may need its own thread for discussion...

 

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

Hey all...

 

Khorneeq's has made a good point with his quotes, as there is no specifc rule for OT vehicles and firing other to say that they all can, we would use standard rules fro shooting from transports... in that they cant after vehicle has moved cruising speed.

However the OT rules do say that the scouts may disembark even after the vehicle has moved, but i cannot see any reference to cruising speed.

 

So i have edited the Tactica to say, that they cannot fire from a LSS at cruising speed, but can disembark and fire....

 

Obviously if ive interpreted a quote wrong please let me know

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

You should be looking at transport rules and fast vehicle rules -

 

Transported troops cant shoot at cruising speed -

 

Fast vehicles - can fire one weapon and all defensive at cruising speed -

 

Troops can disembark from a fast vehicle unless it has moved or is going to move flat out...

 

So what do you get?

 

Deep strike is cruising - Speeder can shoot - transported troops cant - if they get out they can - They cant assault though because it is not clearly stated in the scouts special rules that they can...

 

If someone can present how scouts weapons are a vehicles defensive weapons then maybe... but until then...

[greatcrusade08]

Yes your right they cant shoot at cruising speed and the storm can only shoot one weapon (only has one so no loss).

But open topped vehicles can unload troops after moving, so although they cannot shoot from the back they can disembark and shoot, but cannot assault.

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

any transport can unload troops after moving providing it didnt move over 12' (cruising speed) if it is indeed able to... same as a rhino - move it 12' - cant shoot from top hatch, but everyone can get out and have a blast... doesnt really make sense but its GW rules...

[greatcrusade08]

I know doesnt really make sense, but as its within the rules, you may aswell use it...

 

Cheeky but effective.

 

GC08

[CompanyOfTheFallen]

What I find far more interesting is that you can attack 42" in the first round due to scout move. Which means 3 S8 hits agains the rear armor of almost every enemy tank - thanks to always hitting stationary vehicles. Well, does not work when you go second and may be not efficient if the enemy covers his vulnerable troops either by others or keeps them in reserve (particulary in the dawn of war setup). Still, even if they reach the target they are pretty much f***ed in the following enemy turn, but the idea of taking out a Leman Russ or Vindicator in your first turn seems to be fun. Not to forget the option of a multimelta for the LS Storm - which may hurt another tank.

[greatcrusade08]

What I find far more interesting is that you can attack 42" in the first round due to scout move. Which means 3 S8 hits agains the rear armor of almost every enemy tank - thanks to always hitting stationary vehicles. Well, does not work when you go second and may be not efficient if the enemy covers his vulnerable troops either by others or keeps them in reserve (particulary in the dawn of war setup). Still, even if they reach the target they are pretty much f***ed in the following enemy turn, but the idea of taking out a Leman Russ or Vindicator in your first turn seems to be fun. Not to forget the option of a multimelta for the LS Storm - which may hurt another tank.

 

Im not sure where you get the 42" from but its a good tactic:

6" scout move to board LSS (not a dedicated transport), LSS moves 12" any more and you cant disembark, (on roads this is 18"), If you take Shrike or counts as you can fleet between 1-6" and assault 6" giving you:

19-24" range with LSS over normal ground

25-30" range over roads....

I suppose if we figure in the 12" deployment then this accounts for your maximum 42"....but i have a more interesting tactic.

 

Bikes can infiltrate same as regular scouts, so 12" close to enemy outside of LOS or

18" if within LOS.

As they are scouts and have scouts special rule they also get scout move of 6" (is this 12"?, im not sure), they then move 12" and can fire grenade launchers at rapid fire range, at side or rear armour of tanks depending on postion and distance moved, and can assault due to relentless and kill the tanks with melatbombs/powerfists.

This would work well against low armour transports, with 6 grenade launcher and maybe combi-melta to kill transports and then assault the troops inside as they disembark.

Plus if you use a large unit of bikes, they may still have the locator beacon by the time your LSS is ready to deepstrike and can instantly bring it into play with meltas on board etc.

 

GC08

 

If you want to kill tanks such as LR's then take a couple of 5 man teams with combi-melta and meltabombs and go for suicide runs, infiltrate as close as possible:

Lets say within LOS at 18" away (has to be a fraction more due to rules stating not within 18").

scout move of 6", regular move of 6" and fire meltaguns at close range, unfortunatley you wont be within charge range unless you managed to deploy outside of LOS, but if you take a counts as shrike you could ignore the shooting and get the charge with meltabombs.

Either way this is a risky tactic as the enemy will likely destroy the unit whether they complete thier mission or not.

Alot of people would say that 2 5 man teams (200~ish points) is more than worth the destroyed LR, but you shouldnt think of things ion terms of 'earning points', if you destroy/cripple the enemy LR, the opponents game plan of delivering an uber CC (slow moving) unit, such as HG, termies or command squad with short range assult weapons has gone up in smoke and they are already on the back foot.

[greatcrusade08]

Im going to restructure the tactics part of the tactica and split it into two parts, the first being basic tactics listing all simple generic hints and tips, the second part being specific tactics, giving certain unit types and combinations and their uses on the battlefield:

 

Im going to be developing a lot of material by playtesting in a few weeks when my army is big enough, so for the time being alot of this is theory and i wholeheartedly welcome your input and criticism.

 

ALL OR NOTHING:

This tactic involves taking large numbers of CC scouts with a counts as Shrike to gain fleet USR:

You infiltrate as close to the enemy as possible lets say just over 18", you get a scout move of 6", a regular move of 6" and fleet move of between 1-6" and an assault move bringing you into combat on your first turn.

Against a predominantly shooty army this tactic should work well, of course its dependant on who gets the first turn:

YOU: If the scouts get first turn, then we still deploy after the enemy as we infiltrate (of course the enemy infiltrators deploy after and they can still try to steal initiative), as we are deploying last we get to set up within 18" of each 'choice' target, and in some cases cover permitting 12" away from the target.

Assuming the enemy didnt steal initiative you move, fleet and charge the enemy with the whole army and hope the dice gods are smiling at you.

ENEMY: If your opponent gets the first turn, we still deploy last, but his infiltrators set up first, which could be a problem if he sets them up ahead of his main battle line. This would effectively create a pocket of space that scouts cannot cross in a single turn in order to reach his main units.

As we set-up last we can use the terrain and his own units to stay out of LOS of his hard-hitting shooty units (or at least guarantee some cover saves), whilst staying close enough for an effective charge on our first turn, dont forget we also get a scout move before the first turn, so use this to your advantage. In this case we will have to weather a turn of shooting against us and we want to minimise casulties taken.

Alternatively you could choose a flank or flanks attacks, concentrating most of your forces on certain parts of the battle whilst ignoring the more dangerous shorter range firepower. At close range barrage and scatter weapons may damage the opponents troops aswell.

This tactic works best against shooty armies or 'equal' armies as the scouts get the bonuses from the charge and will do well in combat, equally low initiative armies will take alot of casulties before they can strike back, so a mob ork army may falter against this list.

It is a risky tactic in that if you dont get first turn you may take casulties and struggle in CC, but the game will be determined in the first couple of turns.

 

 

ANTI-TANK SUICIDE SQUADS:

Seeing as Scouts have little specialised anti-tank options and have no real dedictaed units to this end, defeating mech armies or destroying key vehicles may prove difficult. ML's are pretty much anti-tank weapons, they can be used against troops, but the hellfire heavy bolter does this better so there is little point. That being said there wont be many in the army and they are only strength 8 wielded by BS3 scouts, also if used against armour it renders the rest of the squad unable to fire with thier bolters/shotguns etc (the decision that annoys most tactical squads the world over). Still there are options:

 

A five man unit with a combi-weapon (melta) and meltabombs comes in at 90 points, again their usage depends on who wins the first turn:

YOU: Infiltrate as close as possible, if you can set-up out of LOS using cover or setting up to the side of the vehicle then you can be in CC on the first turn and automatically hit with meltabombs as it is stationary (plus you get a melta shot on the way in). If not then taking a counts as shrike for Fleet USR is the only way you can achieve this. Alternatively a 3 man bike squad with meltabombs and combi-weapon is 85 points and can move further thus removing the need for fleet.

Of course this would take up a valuable fast attack slot, so it depends on your army list if this is going to be viable.

ENEMY: As your not going to get first turn, you have to consider your opponents possible game plan, we set up last so we can 'guestimate' their approximate travel path with the vehicle and lay in cover waiting for the chance to strike. The beauty of a 5 man suicide squad is the sergeant is the only important model, so you have potentially 4 ablative wounds. The potential problem is that as the vehicle has moved you wont get an auto hit, but combine the melta shot with the CC meltabombs (both used by BS4 seargent) and you should be able to do some damage even to a high armoured vehicle like a LR.

The good thing about scouts is that different models of the same unit can be armed differently, so by taking a full ten man squad we can split it into a suicide squad with shotguns/ccw's and a long range unit of snipers and a heavy.

 

 

BIKE SQUADS IN ANTI-TANK:

Other methods for anti-tank, include bikers with grenade launchers, targetting rear or side armour of vehicles, it gives the potential for 6 S6 shots, even at a scouts lower BS you should get a penetrating hit. Given the 24" range of the grenade launchers and the bikes movement potential, its possible to take down shorter range tanks like vindicators without reply.

Alternatively by taking a counts as Khan on bike, your scout bikes can outflank to surprise enemy armour (very useful against whirlwinds and basilisks), and given the hit and run USR they can assault vehicles with meltabombs without fear of being locked in combat if unsucsessful.

Again it should be mentioned that a small number of bikes with meltabombs and combi-melta would make an effective fast moving anti-tank suicide unit, and with the higher tougness would last longer against small arms fire.

 

 

TELION AND ORKS:

A popular strategy amongst marine players is to use Telion to kill nobs armed with klaws so that dreads can hold them in CC, using a scout army a similar tactic can be used by first killing the nob and using bike to charge the orks. In this case the higher mobility of the bikes almost guarantees they will get the charge negating the Furious charge USR of the orks, they will be hitting with lower initiave at S3 against T5 scouts and at base attacks.

The two options would be to:

a : Use a large 10 man bike squad with captain to destroy the orks, or

b : Use a small disposable 80 point 3 man squad with combi-flamer to whittle their numbers a little and hold them for a turn or two until your are in a better position to deal with them.

 

As always C+C welcome

GC08

[CompanyOfTheFallen]

Well, the LSS has the scout special rule - so he can resolve a normal movement after deployment before the first turn starts. This are 24" or am i wrong? Then you have the normal movement of 12" and then disembark and attack with the scouts another 6". So where am i wrong?

[greatcrusade08]

Well, the LSS has the scout special rule - so he can resolve a normal movement after deployment before the first turn starts. This are 24" or am i wrong? Then you have the normal movement of 12" and then disembark and attack with the scouts another 6". So where am i wrong?

 

You may be onto something, but im not quite sure about the scout movement rule and what it allows vehicles i.e bikes and LSS to do.

If you think about it, it seems unlikely that GW would intend the LSS to reach the other guys deployment zone before the game even begins!!

 

Ill check it out when i get the chance...

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

LSS has the scout special rule all by itself - it can scout 24' before the game begins... or outflank - 44' with a charge goes like this

 

Deploy 24 away ' scout 24- (still need 12' distance from you and the enemy) move 12' disembark (+2.5') assault 6'... Hit rear armour with 1 meltabomb and 4 kraks on a tank that didnt move (because it hasnt had a turn yet!) and all for 130 points.... sneakier than wolf scouts! should be able to get to rear armour in your shoot phase too - add in some str4 shots and some str 5 HB shots (or whatever upgrade on the LSS) all in rear armour... bad news for dreads too and might save you getting your boys killed in the resulting vehicle explosion... LR do not like auto hitting melta bombs...

[greatcrusade08]

Holy cow batman....amazing, so the scout rule lets you get a maximum move for all vehicles as well as infantry, huh that opens a whole new can of worms...

 

Ill have to put up some more strategies with this in mind.

 

Thanks Taul

 

GC08

 

I guess i owe Companyofthefallen an apology for shutting him down....sorry my friend ;)

[greatcrusade08]

I have updated the tactica to include all these little nuggets, so please feel free to point out any possible mistakes or point out if i have missed any pertinent information.

 

Thanks in advance

GC08

[Jackelope King]

Just FYI, GC, you don't need counts-as-Khan to outflank your scout bikes (as mentioned above). They come with infiltrate and scouts already.

[greatcrusade08]

Just FYI, GC, you don't need counts-as-Khan to outflank your scout bikes (as mentioned above). They come with infiltrate and scouts already.

yeah thats just poor wording on my part, i put khan in to explain the hit and run special rule in the next sentence, when i next get a chance i will go through and correct SPAG...hopefully the librarium will pick this up when its completed.

 

Thanks for pointing that out though

GC08

[Tutteman]

You know I've never seriously considered getting a tenth company force before. Until you guys pointed out all these dirty....I mean inventive tricks. PLus I just love the "Underdogness" of Scouts (Compared to their elders anyway.)

 

Keep up the good work GreatCrusade

[greatcrusade08]

You know I've never seriously considered getting a tenth company force before. Until you guys pointed out all these dirty....I mean inventive tricks. PLus I just love the "Underdogness" of Scouts (Compared to their elders anyway.)

I love it...thanks man

 

Seriously though when you consider than a 10 man tac squad is 170 points with ML and flamer (have better BS,WS and save), and a 10 man scout squad with ML and combi-flamer is 160 points, we really need all the dirty tricks we can get.

ITs good fun too.

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

Something mildly important to consider with an all scout army is the infiltrate rule/ability (you didnt touch on their greatest assest IMHO)

 

It does wonderful things - obviously in the realm of deployment (which is critical!!)

 

It gives you outflank, for when you dont win first turn... solid... you get to deny the enemy a target for a few turns, making it harder to kill all your soft scouts as they simply have a seriously reduced time frame to cause the same amount of wounds... (dont forget, they are going first - so they wont see a model till their turn three!!!)

 

Secondly, with the win on the first turn, you pick your side, make them deploy on the crappy side, your whole army is infiltrating so you place no models, they place their army, you essentially deploy your army and go first (providing they dont seize the intiative!!) So what you have is an army that deploys last, with table edge choice but goes first.... Very very hard to counter a deployment that you cant see... and second turn has to deploy safely... but where is safe when you dont know where the danger is?

 

I noticed this today against eldar and my LSS + pod based army.. He had first turn in both games - but he was frustrated because he couldnt deploy without exposing some facet of his army... he simply did not know where he would be safe, and where the hurt will be coming from... and he has a nasty list (eldrad based - strong tourney list, he does really well most tournies) but could not hold the intiative (which eldar need) because of my outflank and deep strike units... that and my scoring units dont even roll to come on until his turn 3... so he cant cripple them - and with LSS movement late game, without an opertunity to shoot at them, he called scouts in LSS 5th ed cheese!

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks for the reply...

Your right in that i need to convey this point better in the tactica, i think another re-write and spelling check is in order soon anyway....the thing about writing is you know what you want to say and what you are trying to say, but whether people get the point your are trying to make is a different matter.....

I had already considered the points you made, and i too think it is the strongest weapon in the arsenal of a scout company.

I referred to it a little when i re-wrote the tactica a week or so ago, any pointers on how to improve the article will be taken on board, so feel free to comment (anyone and everyone).

 

Im glad you had some success and i always like to see theory being backed by success on the gaming table, let me know if any other tactical nuggets work out for you!

 

Thanks

GC08

[Cadarn]

I love it when Eldar describe another army as cheese. :rolleyes:

 

Pot. Kettle.

 

The tactica is looking very good GC08. My own scouts have been building up, but need to get my hands on some bikes to try out a reasonably rounded force.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks man, im still filling my army out too, i have a game on tuesday using basic scout units with some fast attack. Not pure scouts but i should be able to test thier pulses.

I need about 7 more bikes and 2 LSS, which is next on my to do list....a WIP conversion article....no rest for the wicked.

 

Im looking forward to trying the pure army at Camb GW, but i need more disposable income :rolleyes:

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

sell the cat... :pinch: - I know a buyer... here mousey mousey...

[greatcrusade08]

Is it me or does Kangamouse sound like an 80's cartoon series. :pinch:

 

@Taul, all external readers are gunna think we are nuts...

 

GC08