10th company tactica

[tedwin183]

I was just catching up on this thread and I noticed some confusion by several people. I've scoured the BRB for answers and have found some of them.

 

1. LSS can deepstrike and anything inside of it cannot assault, but can disembark and shoot, pg.70 of BRB.

 

1. LSS only moves it's BASE movement for its scout move. It cannot move at cruising speed, flat out. pg. 70, 76 of BRB.

 

Now, my input from testing 50/50 bp/ccw and shotty 10 man squad. I played them against a thousand sons player which wasn't the best idea. Regardless, they seemed fairly effective against a 5 man thousand son squad with a sorcerer. They ended up getting beaten, but not before i took 4 of them down, 2 of which was in the shooting phase. I am still going to work this one out. I am not sure this best represented what they can do. I ended up outflanking next to a defiler and had to spend 2 turns evading battlecannon fire.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks for the input Tedwin..

 

The only point i wasnt aware of was the scout move of the LSS, so thanks for the catch!

 

Im glad you had some success with the scouts, the 50/50 shotguns IMO would work better against higher I opponents, against lower I it makes little difference as you would get the extra CC attacks in first anyway...

But yeah against MEQ the theory says shotguns will do ok.

 

Its always nice to have theory backed by results though....nice one ;)

 

Thanks again

GC08

 

Edit: Ive edited the tactica to include the basic movement for LSS (and bikes), thanks again Tedwin

[Brother Tual]

1. LSS only moves it's BASE movement for its scout move. It cannot move at cruising speed, flat out. pg. 70, 76 of BRB

 

Where does it say this? you might have a point with bikes as turbo boosting is a 'special' movement type...(but its kinda watery as it is a USR that covers multiple units, probably to save print with repeats of the same rule - not so much a 'special' movement outside of what is a normal move for a bike/jet bike) but no where does it say combat speed is 'normal' movement or base speed? (what ever base speed is and its relevance here..) '... the speeds in reguards to vehicles is all a normal move.. none are considered 'special' (and in the sense of bikes I would say that turbo boosting is a normal option for movement and is thus a normal move...) Only because pg 76 and the scouts rules says 'may make a normal move. THIS IS DONE EXACTLY AS IN THEIR MOVEMENT PHASE. indicating to me that it is bound by normal movement restrictions (ie, terrain effects and movement by vehicle clasification/wargear - dozer blades or similar etc) nothing against moving its maximum speed, with the only exception being to retain 12' from the enemy...

 

 

What about roads... would you be able to add on the 6'?

[greatcrusade08]

OMG, im confused <_<

 

Should we start a thread do you think????

 

Im going to admit something now, in that i dont actually own either a codex or a rulebook, but do have access to them both, so i never bothered buying them....on most days i cant just step away from the computer and check these things, its something i do a day or so later with a friends copy.

Generally i take what people say (especially with quotes), without question. But we definately need to be careful with the difference between actual rules and our perception of these rules....

 

Thanks for all your help though, im very grateful none-the-less.

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

probably, but as you actually HAVE this rule in your tactica, it is not a BAD place to discuss this...

 

I could be wrong with how I read the rules, I sometimes am, but I cant see why, in black and white, going any other speed than combat speed is ruled out - it has absolutely no reference to speed, only normal movement and compares it to the movement phase - I cant see why normal movement is defined as combat speed ONLY -

[greatcrusade08]

probably, but as you actually HAVE this rule in your tactica, it is not a BAD place to discuss this...

Granted, ignore my ramblings <_<

 

I could be wrong with how I read the rules, I sometimes am, but I cant see why, in black and white, going any other speed than combat speed is ruled out - it has absolutely no reference to speed, only normal movement and compares it to the movement phase - I cant see why normal movement is defined as combat speed ONLY -

As you have listed above, it says "This is done exactly as is done in thier movement phase", which to me suggests it is treated just like a movement phase with all the rules for terrain included.

I.e they would get bonuses for roads, and unless they have move through terrain would have to roll for difficult terrain ect.

I also assumed that regular scouts could baord a transport using this scout move.

Now that im disecting the last few posts, it seems to me that the turbo-boost is considered a 'special rule' for bikes only and it is disallowing the use of these special rules, however cruising speed and flat out etc, are not considered special rules, these are listed under the basic movement for bikes/speeders etc....

 

This is my reasoning....

 

GC08

[Khorneeq]

Hi guys,

I've seen some problems with scout moves.

 

Firstly scouts may make a normal (not basic as it was said) move which means for me moving as in movement phase during the game. So Land speeder may go at combat, cruising or flat out speed (providing it is still more than 12 inches from enemy). As it not a dedicated transport vehicle if scouts enter it then it may not move flat out. If it flies through difficult terrain it takes dangerous terrain test.

I 4th edition it was clearly written that bikes may not use their toorbo-boosters for scout move (I'm sure this is true for Space Wolves 13th Company). But I think that now this is possible for scout bikers as I havent found any rules negating it. And they are also affected by difficult and dangerous terrain.

 

Secondly skimmers (and yes I mean Land speeder here) do not gain bonuses for moving along roads.

 

Hope this makes it clear.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks for that Khorneeq, it makes it a little easier to understand (all these weird little rules melts my little brain)...

Check out my first scout game here clicky

 

GC08

[Leonar the Nutter]

LOVE this Tactica and it has inspired me to start a 10th company, thanks for the effort and time you put into it

 

now.... which chapter should i get?

[greatcrusade08]

LOVE this Tactica and it has inspired me to start a 10th company, thanks for the effort and time you put into it

 

now.... which chapter should i get?

 

Thanks mr Nutter, as for your chapter, your best with a codex adherant chapter, you can even make a DIY using counts as rules to take Telion..

Note that DA dont have scouts as troop choices, and space wolves scouts are not initiates but fully fledged battle brothers.

Also BT dont use scout companies...

 

Hope this helps.

GC08

[Leonar the Nutter]

yes, thanks, i was thinking of using salamanders for my chapter as with there reroll rules for meltas aganst tanks as scouts seem very weak in the anti tank area, and this would really help

 

what are your thoughts on this,?

 

 

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP (oops, caps lock)

[greatcrusade08]

yes, thanks, i was thinking of using salamanders for my chapter as with there reroll rules for meltas aganst tanks as scouts seem very weak in the anti tank area, and this would really help

 

what are your thoughts on this,?

 

It would definately help, but you would have to take the Sallies special character to get the bonus, which is ok but its hard to explain fluff-wise. That being said its not always important to explain these things and if you wanted to paint them pink with long trunks thats fine by me :confused:

Seriosuly though anything goes, im using a pure scout force for my current playtesting, but after a while im going to reduce t to about 50-60% scouts (all troops will be scouts), then i can add in fast attack and deepstriking elemnts to really give the army a theme and be spot on with fluff......but then not everyone is as anal as i am... ;)

 

Good luck with your army, let me know how you get on.

GC08

[theredcorsair]

Pure genius

I might do a scout army now I think

A 3000 pt. Scout army

[Sgt. Corallis]

Hi guys! This tactica was really intresting to read. Actually I think I will start working on some all-scout army lists in the near future.

That said, I see that there is quite alot of misunderstood rules being discussed:

 

1. A squad can never combat squad if coming in from reserve. Hence you would need to buy a 5 man scout squad to ride with the LSS if you plan to deep strike it.

 

2. A LSS, NOT being a dedicated transport does not mean you can't deploy a unit of scouts in it right from the start. The only limitation in this area is a dedicated transport beloning to another unit, in which case no unit other than the 'parent' unit can start the game in it. So the 42" 1st turn assumption is quite accurate in fact. Also, you could combat squad a unit during deployment and deploy 5 men in the LSS BEFORE scout moves.

 

3. Scout moves. As was previously clarified, the LSS can go flat out during the scout move. However Scout bikes can also move "24 during their scout move.

For you non-belivers out there I would have to reference to the GW website. The FAQ on the new rulebook says exactly that. You are allowed to turbo-boost as a scout move. And not only that, you do benefit from the 3+ cover save in your opponents shooting phase, should he get first turn.

Here's a link for ya: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...019&start=2

then click on the '40k Rulebook'

It's pretty far down on the first page.

 

That's all i can think about right now. Hope I cleared things up a bit.

[Brother Tual]

A squad can never combat squad if coming in from reserve. Hence you would need to buy a 5 man scout squad to ride with the LSS if you plan to deep strike it.

 

Interesting - but why do you say this? Drop pods most certainly can - and in the case of a LSS read below...

 

A unit can deploy as a combat squad, A unit (combat squad or not - depending on room- and as long as it is not dedicated to another unit) can deploy in a transport and in the case of the LSS the transport can outflank... Indeed, any unit with the scout rule which deploys in a dedicated transport gives that transport the scout ability, though not a dedicated transport, the LSS has the scout rule in its profile... I see no rules that deny a combat squad from entering a vehicle and no rule which deny a transport with a combat squad in it from outflanking.. granted you have to roll seperately... but perfectly legal... If you can show the rules that dispute this, please share :)

 

I dont see evidence of any unit being denied the ability to combat squad and use reserve.. can you share your source? The decision to combat squad is made when the unit is deployed, is reserves not a type of deployment? same as putting them in a transport is a type of deployment, same as putting them on the table is a type? same as outflank is a type? The choice to combat squad is elected when the unit is deployed, it does not deny any aforementioned method/type of deployment... it just regulates that my one unit is now two, split evenly and that I must allocate to the components of each unit and that each unit is now counted seperatly in gaming terms.. It does not say that a combat squad MUST deploy in the 'standard' manner nor that combat squads loose any deployment special rules - they just have to declare it and follow it through, the only exception being a drop pod... I have no trouble with a 10 man assault squad deploying as a combat squad and using their special rule to deploy as deep strikers, as long as it is stated so, the combat squad rules are followed and each unit rolls seperatly on both the reserve rolls and as per the deep strike rules -

 

 

on a side note, I believe that wolf scouts can use a LSS, and wolf speeders can elect to deploy via drop pod.. crazy huh? A speeder coming out of a pod with wolf scouts coming out of the speeder!! who ate the spider? I dont know why you would but its there... Blood claws deploying via a drop pod can assault on the turn they land also... actually, they MUST if within charge range! and get +2 A to boot!

[Sgt. Corallis]

A squad can never combat squad if coming in from reserve. Hence you would need to buy a 5 man scout squad to ride with the LSS if you plan to deep strike it.

 

Interesting - but why do you say this? Drop pods most certainly can - and in the case of a LSS read below...

 

A unit can deploy as a combat squad, A unit (combat squad or not - depending on room- and as long as it is not dedicated to another unit) can deploy in a transport and in the case of the LSS the transport can outflank... Indeed, any unit with the scout rule which deploys in a dedicated transport gives that transport the scout ability, though not a dedicated transport, the LSS has the scout rule in its profile... I see no rules that deny a combat squad from entering a vehicle and no rule which deny a transport with a combat squad in it from outflanking.. granted you have to roll seperately... but perfectly legal... If you can show the rules that dispute this, please share :)

 

I dont see evidence of any unit being denied the ability to combat squad and use reserve.. can you share your source? The decision to combat squad is made when the unit is deployed, is reserves not a type of deployment? same as putting them in a transport is a type of deployment, same as putting them on the table is a type? same as outflank is a type? The choice to combat squad is elected when the unit is deployed, it does not deny any aforementioned method/type of deployment... it just regulates that my one unit is now two, split evenly and that I must allocate to the components of each unit and that each unit is now counted seperatly in gaming terms.. It does not say that a combat squad MUST deploy in the 'standard' manner nor that combat squads loose any deployment special rules - they just have to declare it and follow it through, the only exception being a drop pod... I have no trouble with a 10 man assault squad deploying as a combat squad and using their special rule to deploy as deep strikers, as long as it is stated so, the combat squad rules are followed and each unit rolls seperatly on both the reserve rolls and as per the deep strike rules -

 

 

on a side note, I believe that wolf scouts can use a LSS, and wolf speeders can elect to deploy via drop pod.. crazy huh? A speeder coming out of a pod with wolf scouts coming out of the speeder!! who ate the spider? I dont know why you would but its there... Blood claws deploying via a drop pod can assault on the turn they land also... actually, they MUST if within charge range! and get +2 A to boot!

 

Well, when you put it that way, and by checking the rules given in C:SM I think it is time to curse GW for poor choice of words :D. However I'm pretty sure that the 'during deployment' refers to the normal deployment when you deploy your forces in your deployment zone in the start of the game and not for deploying from reserves. I think that infriltrate is an exception from this, as they are 'deployed' from the start of the game, just not necessarily in your deployment zone.

If we take a look in Codex Dark Angels for example, the Combat Squad rule clearly states that units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads.

However, it doesn't in C:SM, so wheter it is poor wording on GW's side, or if they actually intended the rule to work like you interpreted it, I'm not sure of, however, given that the other chapters (BA, DA) combat squad rules clearly states that units in reserve cannot use the rule, I'm pretty sure it goes for regular marines as well. I might be wrong however.

 

EDIT: In the case of the drop pod, it's clearly stated in the Combat Tactics rules that a unit deploying from drop pod can 'combat squad'. It also states it is the ONLY exception from 'this rule', refering to the sentence that you can only use combat squads during deployment.

 

However, this is how I have interpreted the rule, but I think it makes sense.

[Brother Tual]

Very well, If you consider the other two codex than yes, it would seem rather poor to word it the way they have - but thats not really a great reason to argue against reserves and combat squads - they are different dex -

 

 

normal deployment when you deploy your forces in your deployment zone in the start of the game and not for deploying from reserves.

why is reserves not a form of normal deployment? its normal for scouts to infiltrate - drop pods to deep strike, normal for tanks to roll on, and normal for a khan list to outflank...?

[Sgt. Corallis]

Very well, If you consider the other two codex than yes, it would seem rather poor to word it the way they have - but thats not really a great reason to argue against reserves and combat squads - they are different dex -

 

Very true, they are different dexes, but it doesn't make very much sense to me that vanilla marines can split their squads in reserve when BA & DA cannot.

 

normal deployment when you deploy your forces in your deployment zone in the start of the game and not for deploying from reserves. why is reserves not a form of normal deployment? its normal for scouts to infiltrate - drop pods to deep strike, normal for tanks to roll on, and normal for a khan list to outflank...?

 

It is a form of deployment, yes, but I would not say it is a form of normal deployment (In my mind that is when you deploy the force that will start the game on the table). On the other hand I would say that Infiltration is a form of normal deployment since that deploy on the board before the game begins, however as I said, this is my interpretion and I might very well be wrong.

Now, if you play this way and the people you're playing with is ok with that, I won't try to convince you otherwise.

[greatcrusade08]

Although i agree this rule could be cleaned up a little, its pretty much a non issue, throughout the article i suggested using a dedicated 5 man squad for the LSS in order to gain the combi-weapon on the sergeant.

Personally now that im playtesting the scout army, i believe brother Taul had found the ultimate way of using the scout speeders, and thats to grab objectives late in the game....

I have found the bikes to be useful, currently im using 3 as a first strike 'suicide' squad, in the first game they took out 2 of 3 speeders in the first turn, in my second game, they did little more than to 'stun' a razorback...hopefully in my next games i will get a feel for the 'potential' of this unit...i could always mathahmmer, but ultimately i dont find it useful, you cant account for random dice rolling...

 

I did send a couple of questions to GW myself; they sent back the following.

 

Q1: Are scout bikes included in mounted assault rule (captain on bike) that allows you to count 5 bikers as a troops choice?

A: No the rule is for space marine bikers only.

 

Q2: Do LSS cerberus launchers actually stack, giving you -4Ld for two LSS?

A: Yes they do stack

 

Hope this helps.

GC08

[Brother Tual]

I let my opponents decide if they stack.. to be honest, I have only used it once and it was with only one unit... I tend to use them as scoring units rather than to kill things.. as you said...

 

I have had only one success story with killing things.. Seekers? of slannash (they have a daemonette riding them) - 10 shotgun rounds per turn really really hurts them... and they struggle to get past the AV10.. indeed, its a really bad option for them to actually charge the speeder as it is probably close (so they dont move far) and they can only kill the speeder, which will probably die, then they have to take another 10 shots and then spend another turn charging the scouts! for 125 points you get to serious hurt this expensive unit which they cant ignore because the shotties are really hurting them..

 

I have tried the bomb run... scout + move + charge with a meltabomb... I did it against a fire prism though with fields... I kept it out of the game for three turns (6 rounds of combat) and the amount of glancing and pen hits is good, just the fields are annoying.. auto hit is nice... I actually got a glance with a melta bomb! after the third turn he kinda killed my scouts with eldrad (kept him tied up for two turns though!!) so it kinda drew alot of his big toys away from the fight.. The only problem is that it was one of my three scoring units...

 

5 scouts in a LSS is a fun little unit which is fairly cheap - you cant ask for a better scoring unit with mobility, a good degree of survivability and invulnerabilities... alot rides on the LSS though... generally, once it goes down, the scouts are soon to follow.. but atleast it takes two good rounds of shooting to do so... Outflank and flat out are a nice combo - generally turn two or three (so less time to shoot at them) and with two turns left they can get to anywhere on the table an get a cover save to boot!

[Ryjak]

Bump!

 

I'm planning on expanding my two meager scout squads (two 5-man squads with BP/Blades and a Heavy Bolter) with some snipers, and was thinking of going for two of the following unit:

 

Combat Squad A: 4 sniper rifles and Heavy Bolter

Combat Squad B: 4 BP/Blades and Vet Sgt with ???

 

The combat squads would be purchased as one unit before being split... and hopefully I'll be able to augment it further with some LS Storms. Or, going a different route:

 

Sniper Squad: 8 sniper rifles, Heavy Bolter, and Vet Sgt... possibly upgraded to Telion, using my Vindicare Assassin model.

 

Assuming this plan makes sense, I'll obviously need to buy two "sniper packs"... but can I make a new Veteran Sergeant with the pieces in that kit, or does it only give you the bits for making 4 snipers and a ML Scout?

[greatcrusade08]

Thats pretty cool, but a nquick word of caution, heavy weapons (HB, ML, or snipers) cannot fire from an LSS, as its open topped and they count as moving, so whether you choose bolters, pistols or shotties your range is limited to 12"..

The preferred choice for those who run them is all shotties, but some run all ccw or a 50/50 mix, bolters are good but you cannot assault..

 

The sniper 'kit' does give you some options to change one of them, IIRC you get two bodies without cloaks for the ML user and some extra weaponry, im sure you can make your own...

With my vet sergeants i make my own combi-weapons using plasma pistols/bolters, that way they look generic enough to switch out for counts as purposes, meaning i dont have to use different models if i want him to have a combi-flamer/melta/plasma or a standard bolter

 

GC08

[Ryjak]

Thats pretty cool, but a nquick word of caution, heavy weapons (HB, ML, or snipers) cannot fire from an LSS, as its open topped and they count as moving, so whether you choose bolters, pistols or shotties your range is limited to 12"..

The preferred choice for those who run them is all shotties, but some run all ccw or a 50/50 mix, bolters are good but you cannot assault..

 

The sniper 'kit' does give you some options to change one of them, IIRC you get two bodies without cloaks for the ML user and some extra weaponry, im sure you can make your own...

With my vet sergeants i make my own combi-weapons using plasma pistols/bolters, that way they look generic enough to switch out for counts as purposes, meaning i dont have to use different models if i want him to have a combi-flamer/melta/plasma or a standard bolter

 

GC08

Oh, I was just going to stick my CCW Scouts and Sergeant in the LS Storms and mostly use them as counter-assault, or use them to assault something in cover they should be able to beat, then kill, thanks to the -4 to leadership from to Cerebus Launchers.

 

My biggest roadblock is how to get an appropriate Vet Sgt Scout model, how to model it, and what to actually arm him with in the game. I can't help but think Powerfist, but use a warhammer from somewhere instead (a mini Thunderhammer, if you will) AND a combi-flamer. I instantly balk at spending that much on such a cheap model, but 5 scouts are dirt cheap anyway, so I guess it's not too bad to go nuts on the Vet Sgt.

[greatcrusade08]

My biggest roadblock is how to get an appropriate Vet Sgt Scout model, how to model it, and what to actually arm him with in the game. I can't help but think Powerfist, but use a warhammer from somewhere instead (a mini Thunderhammer, if you will) AND a combi-flamer. I instantly balk at spending that much on such a cheap model, but 5 scouts are dirt cheap anyway, so I guess it's not too bad to go nuts on the Vet Sgt.

Scouts have the potential to put huge numbers of cheap units on the field, but its the vet sergeants that bring the real killing power to the battles, if your not paying for expensive cloaks, then there is no problem with arming him with fist and combi-wepaon, or sword and meltabombs....

As for the powerfist, if you can find a IG one, they work quite well, infact all Imperial guard spares come in handy when working with scouts....

 

GC08

[white radish]

Can't wait for the plastic Imperial Guard Command boxes!

 

I'm getting Catachan ones for my Scouts... berets & wife beater shirts & Power Fists! w00t!

 

And if anyone hasn't picked up Biker Scouts, they are brilliant little models, and the new Biker base is just unbelievable compared to the old rectangle Cavalry bases.