Situational/Tactical Analysis . . .

[Battle-Brother Wags]

I mentioned in the thread concerning whether or not Space Wolves are overpowered or not that I have recently played a few games against Eldar and got my rear-end handed to me. I would like to take some time and ask you to help me tweak my overall strategy in running my Mechanized Space Wolves by presenting to you the situation in which I found myself, most notably during my second game against the Eldar. I will give you the SW list so you can see if there was anything fundamentally flawed from the getgo, then present the deployment and so on -

 

The SW list consisted of two 8-GH packs kitted in the standard plasma pack of death format, each headed by a wolf guard (included in the 8) with PF and combi-flamer, each pack in a rhino with dozer blades. One pack has a FB/SS WGBL with all the trinkets attached to it. These are supported by a standard Land Raider with 10 BCs, w/ 2 PWs, a flamer, and my WL kitted out the same as the WGBL except with TDA. There is an Ironclad w/ HF upgrade in a drop pod waiting for the turn 1 drop; and add a vindicator with dozer blade and we're at 1500 points.

 

The opposition consists of a an Avatar, 2 squads of Dire Avengers, one a bladestorm type, the other a "defend" tar pit type. A squad of guardians with scatter laser and spiritseer forms more of a firebase and provides wraithsight help to two anti-tank BL/EML wraithlords. Cap off the list with a full squad of Striking Scorpions, 3 Scatter Walkers, and 8 Warp Spiders.

 

For your consideration, the game is hold and defend or whatever its called where each player has a home base. The deployment is spear-head. Space Wolves get to choose deployment and go first, let us assume the "Seize the initiative" roll on the part of the Eldar fails. All quadrants for deployment zones are more or less identical as far as cover opportunities provided, so let us set aside choosing deployment zones. As I deployed, I put my rhinos at the forfront, knowing that the eldar opponent would most definitely put his troops in the only real cover available, a ruined building, that, being off to one angle slightly, would allow me to cut the corner of the deployment zone and all me to drive my rhinos up and jump out, rapid firing on the first turn. So I set up with that in mind, rhinos in front, LR just behind, and vindicator ready to move forward six inches on the left flank and be in range to light something up.

 

Here is the interesting thing. By lack of option, the eldar player deploys everything except for the tarpit unit of dire avengers in the ruins as expected. The tarpit DAs he deploys among some wreckage about 8 " away from the ruined building, more out of a lack of other options or room in the ruins, I believe. In a nice turn of events for the Space Wolves, the eldar player actually FORGETS to deploy his Avatar. But aside from that, the ruins are loaded down, guardians on the top level, DAs on the middle level, Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in the ruins on the ground level, Scatter Walkers hiding behind the ruins, Wraithlords flanking one on each side but still within LOS cover.

 

So having set up the situation, let me ask you, what do you do as a Space Wolf player? You have a solid block of Eldar firepower about 12" square. Is there anythign to do but run everythign up as close as possible, rapid fire, and hope to survive the return onslaught enough to then run in to close combat with whatever is left?

 

If anyone willing would be so kind as to tell me what their tactic would be considering the tools available in the list, I would love to compare it to what I actually did do, which I will share with you when I receive some tactics from others. Obviously, if you see an obvious flaw in the list, mention that as well, but don't tell me I should have tailored things for the eldar. I don't like playing anything that could be considered a tailored list unless we're in a campaign and my army would have reason to know what it is facing. This was just a friendly pick up game, so I would like the list to stay in the realm of an "all comer" list, as the eldar list certainly was.

 

Anyway, I'd be very appreciative of the help you can offer. Thanks.

 

*edit* changed "8 BCs" in the LR to "10 BCs" in the LR. Not sure what I was thinking there.

[Grey Mage]

Actually with him having less anti vehicle firepower save the wraithlords and warp spiders Id drive up and pummel him in his ruins with my vehicles. Id have dropped the ironclad turn one on the ruins and just kept flamering it. Use your landraiders guns and the Dreads CC prowess to take out the wraithlords....

 

But personally I think its your list. You are very body light for facing eldar... 26 bodies including HQ? And a vindicator.... thats not bad I guess.... but yeah. If it were me Id go ahead and drop the wolf lord all together, and drop the wolf gaurd for more grey hunters... you could get three GH for one PL. Thats good. Drop the dozerblades from the rhinos and give the bloodclaws power fists- you wont be going first anyways. Run the WGBL with the bloodclaws, and depending on the price of your wolf lord consider a vendread.

[WarPanda]

Here is what I would do. Hopefully there is plenty of terrain. I full speed everything towards the Eldar player and hiding around cover as much as possible so that you DO NOT have to pop smoke on your rhinos. You do want to pop smoke with your LR provided you cannot hide it. There are hard to hide. Vindicator needs to be ready to shoot either this turn or the next. With only one drop, you have to hope you drop in a good enough spot to survive the missles and BL coming your way. Personally I would drop the pod right on top of the building, scatter or not odds are you will fall somewhere within flamer distance but far enough away that you will not be charged by 2 Wraithlords or the avatar, then again if he does you will be in good shape. Vindicator take aim at the walkers, they die to bolter fire after all. Flame as many DA's as you can. They are the shooting threat. Remember when you flame a building you chose which floor gets waxed.

 

Next turn depending on what he does, you move your rhinos and LR within charging distance and pop smoke. I do this all the time. Let him destroy your rhinos with his guns, odds are you will survive and pass any pinning tests then charge the hell out of him.

 

You need PF's in your BC squad plus more guys. Your WL if he is kitted out will kill plenty of guys on his own. Get more fists. You have a LR I say use it to its full potential. Personally I think your army does not lend itself well to this fight. He has 3 big monsters. The Wraithlords are weak in CC when you have fists there to kill them. The avatar is the big CC threat of course but can be dealt with if you have enough guys to soak some kills. Seems to me your packs are too small to soak many casualties.

 

Another sneaky way would be to hide everything best you can for 3 turns. Then turn 4 you charge up there, depending on what he does, and try to survive for 2-3 turns, meanwhile keeping one squad of troops on your objective. At best your contest his when came ends and your own your giving you the win.

 

This will be a tough fight for sure friend. Hope some of the rabble helps ya!

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Actually with him having less anti vehicle firepower save the wraithlords and warp spiders Id drive up and pummel him in his ruins with my vehicles. Id have dropped the ironclad turn one on the ruins and just kept flamering it. Use your landraiders guns and the Dreads CC prowess to take out the wraithlords....

 

This is actually prety much what I tried to do. The only problem is that the eldar list actually has PLENTY of anti-tank in it. The BL/EML shot at my heavier stuff while the trillion St6 shots would have taken out my rhinos without much thought had I tried to sit them back at all. So I zoomed the two rhinos forward, hopped out, one rapid fired the tarpit DA and one rapid fired the guardians (they were on the top and the only ones visible in the least, my own ruin construction has alot of solid walls in it, unfortunately for me, this game.) The results were one greatly reduced DA squad, only three left, the exarch having been killed by the wound allocation. The guardians didn't lose much do to poor to-hit rolls and good cover saves (and my plasma gunner blew himself up, of course). My vindicator, after launching a shell into the middle of all the guys on the first floor killed, count them, one warp spider and one striking scorpion. The Ironclad dropped just behind the ScaterWalkers, hitting all three with his HF, melting one Scatter Laser but missing with his meltagun. D'oh. The Land Raider moved forward, shooting with a TLLC, but the wraithlord made his cover save.

 

The return fire from the eldar was heinous. Both Grey Hunter packs were down to 2 or 3 guys at the end of turn 1. One wraithlord blew an arm off the ironclad and then engaged it in CC, a combat which, suprisingly took three full combat rounds before the ironclad suprisingly killed the wraithlord! But it was, itself, immobilized in the process and had a bad facing and became a non-factor the rest of the game. Stupid 45deg arc of fire in 5th. (Just kidding.)

 

The LR actually made it to the ruins and dropped off the BCs before it went down to the remaining wraithlord, but the BCs and WL were not able to handle the striking scorpions and the war walkers who charged in after the initial round of CC. They eventually broke and the WL and 2 remaining claws took to the hills . . . Which brings me to why I have Wolf Guard . . .

 

But personally I think its your list. You are very body light for facing eldar... 26 bodies including HQ? And a vindicator.... thats not bad I guess.... but yeah. If it were me Id go ahead and drop the wolf lord all together, and drop the wolf gaurd for more grey hunters... you could get three GH for one PL. Thats good. Drop the dozerblades from the rhinos and give the bloodclaws power fists- you wont be going first anyways. Run the WGBL with the bloodclaws, and depending on the price of your wolf lord consider a vendread.

 

I am notoriously bad at making leadership checks. That is why I have wolf guard. And if you think of it, wolf guard pack leaders are no more pricey than their veteran sergeant counterparts in the codex astartes. Most of what you point out here, however, has to do with fighting specificially eldar, and remember, I am not trying to tailor a list. Although I'll give you the good point that in general I simply do have a lower model count than might be wise. I guess I'm still stuck in the mindset that BCs should always go in LRs so they can get the for-sure charge. I can't drop the dozerblades because my gaming group play with a ton of terrain. It quite common to not even have an option of moving forward in basically any direction without going over terrain. We play alot of different types of terrain, not just ruins; ship wreckage from BfM, forests, actual tank traps, craters, etc, all dangerous terrain for vehicles.

 

Next turn depending on what he does, you move your rhinos and LR within charging distance and pop smoke. I do this all the time. Let him destroy your rhinos with his guns, odds are you will survive and pass any pinning tests then charge the hell out of him.

 

I actually did try this in my previou game but unfortunately he popped the rhinos early in his round of shooting and due to the angles of the rhinos and model positioning, etc, I wasn't able to hide them sufficiently and there wasn't much left after the rest of his shooting phase . . .

 

You need PF's in your BC squad plus more guys. Your WL if he is kitted out will kill plenty of guys on his own. Get more fists. You have a LR I say use it to its full potential. Personally I think your army does not lend itself well to this fight. He has 3 big monsters. The Wraithlords are weak in CC when you have fists there to kill them. The avatar is the big CC threat of course but can be dealt with if you have enough guys to soak some kills. Seems to me your packs are too small to soak many casualties.

 

Do you think the PFs are still worth it after the PF rule change "nerf"? I mean, 3 PF attacks on the charge is pretty decent, but after that, if need be, you only get 1 . . .? Thats pretty weak . . . and its not like the to-hit roll is guarenteed . . . I dunno. I'm open to further reasons why their better, but my current thoughts are dubious.

 

The points you both have made, however, that definitely ring true involve the model counts in my packs. Which in one sense doesn't make any sense because I thought that 8 man plasma death squads were pretty standard . . . and I honestly don't know how people survive with only leadership 8 if not using a wolf guard, which is a good source of a 2 attack PF, btw. I know that I've always erred on the side of being too elite for my own good. I also know that alot of people take basic WGBL and basically put one in each Grey Hunter pack, but I've really found that with the amount of nasty special characters out there in the enemy lists, relying alot on 2 wound models to be the cornerstone of your CC abilities is really shaky . . .

 

I really appreciate the replies and further comments, even going back to what you would have done, or now knowing what I DID do, what I SHOULD have done, are more than welcome. This type of discussion also helps me to narrow down and eliminate variables. Sometimes I think that I DID something wrong where really I had myself beat from the getgo due to list-construction, and other times vice versa. So anyway, thank you for your continued advice.

 

*edit* Went back and edited original post. I had 10 BCs plus the TDA Wolf Lord in the LR so it was at full capacity after all. Your comment had me puzzled, WarPanda, till I went back and read my original post again and saw where I had left out 2 BCs.

[WG Vrox]

Yep, thats the advantage of knowing your oppenent is going to charge you, you concentrate your fire on 1 unit at a time and try to stun or destroy their transports so they don't overwhelm you.

 

Put the Rhino's behind the LR and Vindi, move em all foward 12" Turn 1, turn the LR sideways so if it gets popped you can deploy the troops behind it. If the LR and Vindi gets hit on the next turn move forward with the Rhinos to give those troops cover. If they are stunned hold up and pop smoke. More than likely both Rhinos will be destoyed, but get those troops out and moving together in mass and in CC as soon as possible. Of course your Vindi should be softening your targets the whole time.

 

 

The only way to make your list work in such a senerio is move in a block so most of you units get cover saves from the big weapons and hit him all at the same time with what you have left. Hit one side or the other of his block most likely the side your IC dred hit so if he is still alive you can provide him support, but do not do a frontal attack and spread yourself out to thin engageing to many units on the turn you get into CC. Try to get all your troops hitting the same targets and plan the odds that you finish up the CC on his assult phase, (yes I know almost impossible to predict but try) tie up as many of those on the side you picked to keep a perpetual CC going. At that point his ranged units are mostly usless.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas, hard to give advice without seeing the whole battleboard and how it looked on each turn, but I think you get the idea of what I am suggesting.

 

WG Vrox

[Grey Mage]

Remember that the Imperial Gaurd fucntions with only leadership 7, and that gaurdian squad you faced was LD 8. The average roll of 2d6 is 7.... 8 isnt bad at all.

 

As for powerfists it not a matter of losing a single attack... its that you get three on the charge/counterattack. Thus you have the ability to wound anything.... including those wraithlords. The str6 guns arent really as a bid a deal as youd think.... they have but a 12 inch range. 3+ saves are tough Ill grant you, but theyll die to plasma and even bolter fire with T3. If they get close then you disembark from your rhinos and plasma/bolter them to death.

 

Remember that even with a pair of brightlances and a pair of missile launchers on those wraithlords you can potentially take out one every turn with your list. TLLC's are very good at taking wounds off of wraithlords, and heavy bolters can take care of them aswell. Plasma rifles from the rhinos can help, as can the vindicator. Take out them and you can stop worrying about most of his army.

 

And as for two wounds characters CC ability... I dont rely on them for my assaults, I rely on my grey hunters who are patentedly twice as good in CC as a marine squad and a bit better than most chaos squads. Characters drive the nail into the coffin... thats all. I think you underestimate the power of basic troopers. Against anything other than a wraithlord in CC theyre just spectacular. The way your list is set up reminds me of a couple of the younger players at my LGS who always go for the biggest scariest things they can pump out... plasma, powerfists, and land raiders.

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

I'd probably drive up right to the edge of the building, leave everyone inside their transports (and put them back-to back with their sides facinge the eldar) (since entanglement doesn't exist anymore, right?), pop smoke on everything except the vindi & dread, and maybe the land raider. Concentrate all still available fire on the wraithlords (and if possible avatar). Then let the eldar destroy my back-to-back rhinos, then disembark everyone on the side of the rhino wrecks he can't see. On my next turn, hope for some good difficult terrain rolls as you cross your wrecked rhinos, then assault him with a pretty much undamaged force.

Alternatively (assuming this is still possible), deploy the LR closest to the eldar, drive up and assault out of the LR. I honestly don't know if those still have that special rule though.

[WarPanda]

I almost always use a WGL in my squads for the LD 9. And I always give him the PF. That is 2 PF attacks after the initial round of combat if they stick around. I then give the squad of GH 2xPW and the BC either 2xPW or 1pw and 1PF. I tend to give my WGL wolf pelts and runic charms. I prefer the charms over the pelts as I tend to need them for ablative wounds and such. This way I avoid the 1 attack PF mostly.

 

Im sure you know as well thew Avatar gives everyone within 12" fearless, so when you shoot concentrate firepower and like was said above keep your squads together and hitting the same thing.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

I almost always use a WGL in my squads for the LD 9. And I always give him the PF. That is 2 PF attacks after the initial round of combat if they stick around. I then give the squad of GH 2xPW and the BC either 2xPW or 1pw and 1PF. I tend to give my WGL wolf pelts and runic charms. I prefer the charms over the pelts as I tend to need them for ablative wounds and such. This way I avoid the 1 attack PF mostly.

 

This is a very similar build as I run, except that instead of the PWs I give my GHs PPs and a PG. Now I'm wondering if it is a better possibility to rapid fire with the bolters, but to concentrate on CC as the specialty. While I love plasma and the idea of plasma death squads, it seems like my own guys are blowing themselves up far too often, and as people have mentioned, in a pack of only 8, self-detonation is definitely going to sting. Hmm, I'm conflicted.

 

As far as leadership is concerned, many armies have a way to supplement their troop's basic leadership with either fearlessness (avatar, for instance), rerolls (Icons of Chaos Glory or Embolden for guardians), or army wide HQ leadership like IG if they have the voxes. Space Wolves are currently suffering from lacking a great portion of all of that. We don't even get our banner anymore that lets us reroll failed leaderships, so we have to rely on squad upgrades or attaching ICs. On 2d6, you will roll an 8 or less about 70% of the time. That is a fairly wide margin for error in my book, especially because it seems like my Wolves live in the remaining 30%. But perhaps that is just me and my dice.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

the land raider redeemer is your friend. i suggest you get one run it up and start smoking the pansy elf people

[Vassakov]

Hmmm... so you have a problem with getting armour to him?

 

Flood the field with Tanks, and watch him squirm. I can get 6 Tanks plus a Dread in a fully mechanised list - 3 HB Razorbacks carrying 6 GH with a Melta, Fist and Power Weapon, a Vindicator, a Dakka Pred and a Crusader with the obligatory BC's and Wolf Priest.

 

The plan is simple - form 2 or 3 armoured "wedges" and in T1 advance the Razorbacks, Vindie, LRC and Dread as far as possible - one tactic is to drive one Razorback 12" and pop smoke, then the other 6" and hide it whilst hitting reaching out the Bolters - both get a 4+ coversave that way. The Crusader can be shielded by the Razorbacks and the Vindie too if needs be. The Dakka Pred picks a squad and hoses it.

 

T2, hopefully you'll still have 1 Razor plus the Crusader and one of the others fine. Others might have been lost, but the Claws should be able to get stuck in. If the Vindies still going Demo Cannon a squad. Hopefully the Grey Hunters can leap out and shred a squad and by this point you'll have him on the ropes.

 

Hope this helps!

[Grey Mage]

I understand and respect your wish to run a single army against everyone.... its a good balanced way of doing things, especially if you play tournaments alot. That doesnt mean it has to be just one list. I have around 3000 points, and usually play 1k or 1.5k. So I have about five different lists, all of wich are all comers lists... but they let me do different tactics more readily depending on my mood. Some of them are "better" than others in general too... and Ill often take a lower level list against a less experianced opponenent.

 

Maybe you should try broadening your menu?

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Grey Mage, I like your idea and I've taken a stab at another list to do as you're suggesting. I know generally these things go in the army list section, but I really would like to keep the resultant discussions of this list in the tactical sense in which I started this thread.

 

Here is my list, followed by my theoretical battle plan -

 

Venerable Dreadnought - AC, HF, EA, SL - 183 pts Question: do I pay 3 points for the smoke launchers as per the SW codex? There is no longer a cost for SL in C:SM as it is standard equipment now. I assume, however, I'm stuck paying the full C:SM price for the EA . . . any clarifications are greatly appreciated if I've priced this out wrong.

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leader - FB, SH, WTN, WP - 103 pts Goes with the Blood Claws.

 

Ironclad Dreadnought - HF (replacing SB), Drop Pod - 180 pts

 

Dreadnought - TLLC, ML - 145 pts

 

9x Grey Hunters - 2x PW, 7x Bolter/CCW, + WGPL - PF, Combi-Flamer, RC, WP; Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 278 pts I would put the PW on the 2 GHs without the Bolters, that way no matter whether I'm charged or do the charging, the PWs and PF all get 3 attacks each, maximizing CC potential. As far as shooting, I'm going for volume of fire with the preference for CC, thereby ditching the plasma weaponry to save on friendly fire accidents and overall price of the pack.

 

9x Grey Hunters - 2x PW, 7x Bolter/CCW, + WGPL - PF, Combi-Flamer, RC, WP; Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 278 pts

 

9x Blood Claws - 2x PF; Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 186 pts

 

Vindicator w/ Dozer Blade - 120 pts

 

That puts me at 1473 points . . . I'm still not happy with the BCs . . . I just don't know. Yeah, they'll probably put a hurtin' on an enemy unit with the WGBL along, but with the squad size limited by the transport capacity of the rhino, I just don't know if the hurtin' is enough. Then in round 2, the BCs will get their butts handed to them. Maybe someone can reinforce my confidence in them.

 

My tactics would be such - hopefully get first turn with the Venerable Dreads help. Position the Hellfire Dread to get a first round shot on enemy armor. Going first, you have to figure out what the most likely spots are for the enemy to put his armor because you have to put down first, but I dont' think this is too much of a problem. The Ironclad drops next to another prime armored target. So hopefully by the end of turn 1, at least one of the enemy's two main armored threats will be gone.

 

With an ironclad and hellfire putting down heavy firepower and the Venerable Dread and Vindicator putting out some more covering fire, the three rhinos charge forward, hopefully in cover, or just poppings smoke as they go. I was actually wondering if, and I'd have to rework some points for this, but if two dakka preds would be better than a single vindicator. That way there is more targets for the enemy and no possibility of the blast scattering onto your own troops that are approaching the enemy positions. Obviously there is no AP advantage with the preds like there is with the Vindi, but in my gaming group, and the amount of terrain we utilize, cover saves positively abound.

 

I think this list has enough covering fire and bodies to make a greater impact than the list I used in my example battle. The only thing is if the two main anti-tank sources are good enough for a 1500 point list.

 

What do you guys think of this strategy? I honestly think that strategy is more of a weak point for me than list building (some may disagree, and feel free to do so), and this type of discussion is really helping me a lot. Thanks.

 

*EDIT* Merry Christmas, everyone! Space Wolves definitely celebrate Christmas . . . yet more opportunities to drink beer! :-)

[Grey Mage]

Smoke launchers are three points... you get OUR Venerable dreadnaught, not theres. Ill tell you the rest later.

[dietrich]

Vehicles are a lot more durable now. Even if he's getting penetrating hits, they can (potentially) absorb a lot of firepower. Getting out of the transports plays to his advantage. Use the vehicles to block LOS and take on as little of his army as you can. Make him shoot you out of your vehicles.

 

I would have advanced, stayed in the rhinos (shot out the top hatch), and shot up the tarpit unit. Use the Landraider to block LOS to the rhinos - or at least give them a cover save. Move the Vindi up and shoot the mass in the ruins. Drop the Ironclad and flame the ruins. Let him return fire on them and the Landraider. If you wipe out the tarpit unit, then keep everyone in the rhinos, and again, fire at any juicy units. I'd try to knock a couple wounds off a wraithlord before assaulting it, since at T4 you need 4+ to wound with a powerfist.

[WarPanda]

Here is an idea. Shoot the ruins. Destroy the ruins, I will have to check my book but I think they will then become dangerous terrain. I think ruins are av 12 or something similar. If he hides in a building blow up the building. :huh:

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Here is an idea. Shoot the ruins. Destroy the ruins, I will have to check my book but I think they will then become dangerous terrain. I think ruins are av 12 or something similar. If he hides in a building blow up the building. :lol:

 

I'll check myself, but I'm pretty sure you can't blow up ruins. That is reserved for buildings that start the game intact.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

I've also been thinking about the difference between and merits of a predator destructor (or 2) vs a vindicator. I'm thinking longer range dakka that has no chance of scattering might be good. I posted this question on Warseer and have gotten some good responses, but I'd be glad to hear what my fellow wolves have to say.

[Grey Mage]

Well in many ways its a matter of taste. I usually run a TLLC+Hvy Bolter rig at 145pts. Its shooty, it can pop tanks, it can mow down infantry, ant with str5 it can damage any toughness in the game. Unless my rolls are crap I can reliably take two wounds off a wraithlord every turn, or pop a tank, or make a squad of anything save marines wish theyd deployed as reserves.

 

The vindicator on the other hand has a single gun, but its a firestorm. The big thing here though is that its ordnance. You can ignore cover saves with it.... and get alot of models gone. Thats worth something IMHO. But since I dont play alot of cityfight I dont think its worth enough to drop my predator. If I did Id take the pieplate..... the range of the predator doesnt matter in a knife fight.

[WG Vrox]

I always run a take on all comers list and have boilded my heavies down to what I call the Holy Trio. Vindi, Pred AC LC spons and Whirlwind. Gives me both ranged and template weaspons in case of a horde/assulty type oppenents and for shooty types I use the Vindi as my spearhead.

 

WG Vrox

[Roland Durendal]

another thing you could do, is drop that reg dread and upgrade your venny to TLLC/ML. I have found the Ven w/ TLLC/ML to be a fairly effective fire base. With that left over 140 or so points, invest in another Demolisher if you so choose. Or throw in some meltas in your reg squads, that way you can shoot and assault still. Oh and add Frags, they are your friend if you happen to assault into cover

[Battle-Brother Wags]

another thing you could do, is drop that reg dread and upgrade your venny to TLLC/ML. I have found the Ven w/ TLLC/ML to be a fairly effective fire base. With that left over 140 or so points, invest in another Demolisher if you so choose. Or throw in some meltas in your reg squads, that way you can shoot and assault still. Oh and add Frags, they are your friend if you happen to assault into cover

 

I'm not saying I would never ever field a TLLC/ML venerable dread, but paying that much for the TLLC on a model that already has BS 5 just makes me wince. Overall, it ends up being almost a 200 point model, and its only armor 12 . . .

 

. . . that just seems really iffy to me, even with the rerolls on the damage table.

[Vampyrer0me0]

It has been a little while since i have been on here. And maybe i missed somewhere in the faq. Where does it say we can get Ironclads?

 

 

Edit: I reread i missed the sentance that said all variants.

 

As to the matter at hand. I field in my 1850 2 dreds one ven with AC and storm bolter and one regular with AC and heavy flamer. This news of Ironclads may change that. My army is really built towards pumping out as many shots per turn as possible and force saves. The eldar players in my area field large farseer retinues with fortune. Only way to deal with that is make it saves roll over and over till it sticks