Space Marines vs Necron

[Coldstream]

I regularly play against a very decent Necron player in my local gaming club and I’m looking for some tips to improve my gaming record of uncountable losses vs one win (early ending objectives scenario, he could have grasped victory if the game lasted one or more turns). I don't want to go too cheesy since, despite losing, our games are usually a lot of fun and he’s been very sporty since the very beginning.

 

A common armylist of him will include:

- 2 or 3 units warriors

- A large unit immortals

- 1 Or 2 units wraiths

- A monolith

- Necron lord or two, of course with the dreaded ressurection orb

- Tombspider

- Possibly some destroyers or scarab swarms

 

Out of all these units it’s the wraiths I fear the most. I have the disadvantage of us usually playing on a high scenery board so I can’t get to many shooting opportunities, if any, at them before they tear into my most vulnerable units and eat those up one by one.

If he fields the monolith he’s not afraid to drop it in the middle of my troops, causing mayhem with the Particle Whip or Gauss Projectors. I try to ignore the damn thing and go for phase out, but haven’t been very successful with that yet.

 

I’m currently thinking about going for a more speedy approach, using a list like this:

- Captain with command squad in Razorback

- 2 Tactical squads in Rhino’s, both armed with melta and multimelta

- 1 Tactical squad with lascannon, footslugging

- 2 dreadnoughts, both armed with plasma cannon and dccw

- Sternguards in drop pod

With this list I want to use the Sternguards early on to weaken his warriors or immortals so I can break them in close combat once the cavalry arrives.

 

Could this tactic/armylist combination have any chance of success? The biggest trap I think I should avoid is having the Razorback, Rhino’s and Dreadnought be crippled causing my army to arrive in piecemeal and thus eaten alive. To counter that all vehicles have Extra Armour and I plan to make the much use of terrain as I possibly can (loads of it on our usuall board though so might be hard if he deploys on a one route in spot).

[StormTAG]

I'd suggest a Vindicator or two for blowing enormous holes in his warrior squads. Nothing says "Hello!" like a large blast that kills on 2+. Also, probably the best thing to deal with Monoliths at range as well.

 

Also, it's a little cheesy, but Lysander's Str 10 with multiple attacks and eternal warrior can really crunch through a Monolith. As can a Dread (especially an Ironclad with 3 attacks w/ +1 on the damage roll!)

 

So, I might drop one of the Dreads for a Vindicator, swap the other for an Ironclad. If terrain is as heavy as you say, the Plasmacannon may not be worth it. Lysander may not fit but him with some Assault Terminators would be handy.

[Warp Angel]

You must get to CC to kill Necrons. Must must must must.

 

When they break in CC and are wiped out because of their crappy initiative, they don't get a chance to come back unless there's another unit of the same type within 6". And even that is debatable. Any unit capable of inflicting sufficient casualties on a warrior squad should also be able to wreck the wraiths. I'd look at swapping out some of your units for bikes or assault marines, and see if you can't mount your captain on a bike or with a jump pack, depending on the unit that you choose.

 

Every game I play against necrons, a full bike squad, led by a captain, coming in from reserve has been responsible for at least two squads being completely destroyed, helping considerably towards phase out.

[Coldstream]

I've had mixed results with my single Vindicator, he knows it's a big threat to him and usually I don't get more shots then 1 or 2 with it. When it does hit it's a painful one, I'll give you that :)

 

Are you sure a Necron unit which is wiped out in close combat is able to roll for WBB? The rules state all necron model which wounds have been reduced to 0 are allowed to roll for WBB, a destroyed unit does not have it's wounds reduced but is removed hence no WBB. Or at least that's how we've played it all along (would be even more shameful for my poor 3rd company if I've been a losing cheater ;)).

 

I had been toying with the idea of taking an assault squad with the list I'm planning, I'll try to free up some points for it. Bikes just aren't my cup of tea. What would be the best to swap out for it? I don't prefer taking just a single dread so it's either going to be the 2 dreads or the Sternguard since that quite a large pointsink.

[Warp Angel]

Like I said, coming back from the dead after being wiped in CC is debatable. Nobody I know believes that it should work that way, but there's plenty of rules debates over it, so someone thinks it works that way.

 

If you're dumping anything, I'd get rid of the dreads. A squad of necron warriors can take out a land raider in the shooting phase just as easily as it can take out a dread. Easier if you consider that it has fewer weapons and suffers more from immobilized results. Glancing on 6's when a 20 strong group rapid fires.... yeah. It's called ouch.

 

Very ouch.

 

Let me explain bikes to you and see if you understand why they are an equivalent (or better) option to Assault Marines.

 

1) Move is the same normally, but bikes can turbo boost up to 24" - Advantage Bikes

2) Assault Marines can avoid terrain, but bikes are NEVER slowed by it - Wash

3) Before the assault, the assault marines can fire 7 bolt pistols, 1 plasma pistol or combi weapon, and 2 flamers/plasma pistols. Before the assault, bike marines can fire 14 re-roll to hit bolter shots, 2 flamers/melta guns/plasma guns on rapid fire, and a heavy bolter/multi melta. - Advantage bikes

4) During the assault, the assault marines get 27 attacks + 3PF/4PW attacks. Bikes get 19 attacks + 3PF/PW attacks. Assuming you go with the fist, you're only getting 8 additional attacks from the assault marines. You're also going to be wounded 17% more often, meaning you're going to lose men faster. In a game where CC is decided by number of casualties difference, you're not gaining a whole lot using the assault marines. - Advantage bikes

5) Outside of CC, the bikes have the higher T, and the potential for a 3+ invulnerable save, meaning they are taking fewer wounds when caught in between assaults. - Advantage Bikes

6) When beyond charge range, bikes can still fire 9 re-roll to hit bolter shots (or 7 and 2 plasma guns) and a multi melta/heavy bolter. - Advantage Bikes

 

Assault Marines total casualties on a charge round vs. MEQ, assuming 3 hits each flamer and sarge PP: 4 bolter shots hit, 2 wound, 1 failed save. 6 flamer hits, 3 wounds, 1 failed save, Plasma pistol hit/wound rounded into bolter shots. You kill 2 in shooting. 27 attacks, 14 hit, 7 wound, 2 failed save. 3 PF attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 2 failed save. Take 7 attacks and 3PF attacks back. 4 hit, 3 wound, 1 failed save. PF kills 2. You've won combat by 1 wound, and have 5 enemies left standing. Necrons will average fewer wounds per model, but usually make up for it with larger squad size. They'll kill about 2 marines, give or take. So you'll end up winning by two wounds with 15 models left standing before WBB.

 

Bike Marines total casualties on a charge round vs. MEQ, assuming 3 hits each flamer. 12 bolter hits, 6 wounds, 2 failed saves. 1 failed save from flamers, and 1 dead from heavy weapons fire from the attack bike. That's 4 dead in shooting. 2 better than the assault Marines. And the numbers get better on the bike side if you rapid fire plasma guns instead of using flamers that only cover 3 each. In the assault, you're going to kill 2 with the PF, and 1 with the regular attacks (actually closer to two, but I've got a point to make). You've killed 3, which leaves only 13 to attack back. They'll be lucky to kill more than 1 with your T5. You've still won combat by two, but you've got fewer opponents left on the table. Both are making the same leadership check.

 

The assault marines will do slightly better inflicting casualties in later rounds, but will also take more casualties. Which means by the time that you eventually win combat, or get left standing in the open with your pants down as the Necron player teleports his units out of CC, you're less effective the next time around.

 

But, by all means, continue to not like bikes if they don't suit your play style.

[Pinky Narfanet]

When they break in CC and are wiped out because of their crappy initiative, they don't get a chance to come back unless there's another unit of the same type within 6". And even that is debatable.

The Tomb Spyder throws a spanner in those works. If the Tomb Spyder is withing 12" of the fallen Necron the fallen Necron can still do the WBB if there is another unit of the same type on the board (assuming normal WBB conditions are met).

 

Coldstream, If you're talking about sweeping advances, I'd argue that any Necrons downed before the sweeping advance are still eligible for WBB rules (subject to the normal conditions) but any Necrons caught in the sweep are gone without benefit of WBB. The downed Necrons are "ignored completely for all normal game purposes" and I would argue that not only is SA a "normal game purpose" but also that downed Necrons aren't part of any unit as they join the nearest unit of the same type if they're successful with their WBB roll (even if that squad is on the other side of the board, such as is allowed by the Tomb Spyder). Some Necron players are afraid to make that argument, though, for fear of being labeled "beardy" or "cheesey". But I'm pretty much a RAW guy (even if the RAW is screwy).

 

Also, watch that deep striking Monolith. From my reading of the RAW, the Monolith should still be subject to the Mishap Table if the scatter would put it within 1" of an enemy, on top of a friendly, etc. Only if the Monolith would then suffer a "Terrible Accident" result should it be placed with the normal Monolith rules, but if a "Misplaced" or "Delayed" result comes up it should still suffer those consequences.

 

You might want to talk these over with your opponent to see his reactions to them. He may agree, he might not. But they should still be discussed beforehand to prevent those "mid-game-moments".

[Nyyman]

"It is not destroyed if there are enemies within 1" when it arrivs. Instead move any models that are in the way the minium distance necessary to make space for Monolith"

Page 21 from Necron Codex.

Was wondering how fun would it be if it would Deep Strike on my Termies :lol:

Anyway, I found a fun way to kil Necries if they don't have Ress Orb. Krak Missiles are they called. Also Termies Cyklone ML which fires two times. Plasma Cannon doesn't get Instant death, only negates that 3+ Save.

I'm not really scared about those Wraiths. They can't ignore saves (right?) and dispate it has 3+ inv, he has only one Wound. One lucky Krak Missile ensures he doesn't get WBB.

Bike Squads with power weapons and Assault Termies are also lots of fun.

[Coldstream]

But, by all means, continue to not like bikes if they don't suit your play style.

It's not a playstyle issue but more a general dislike issue :) Somehow bikes just don't do it for me. If I add in the fact our table is highly clogged with terrain (it was originally intented as a Cityfight table) which will increase the amount of dangerous terrain test needed to make I'm more inclined to go for Assault marines.

 

 

Anyway, I found a fun way to kil Necries if they don't have Ress Orb. Krak Missiles are they called. Also Termies Cyklone ML which fires two times. Plasma Cannon doesn't get Instant death, only negates that 3+ Save.

I'm not really scared about those Wraiths. They can't ignore saves (right?) and dispate it has 3+ inv, he has only one Wound. One lucky Krak Missile ensures he doesn't get WBB.

Bike Squads with power weapons and Assault Termies are also lots of fun.

He always takes the ressurection orb, hence my preference for plasma death. The Plasma cannon's will give me a good chance to wound them and I've I'm lucky deny him a save. The dreaded WBB will always happen from my experience.

Due to our table being very terrain heavy I'm lucky if I can get a shooting chance at them, if I do I'm making sure everything has a shot at them but even then it's not a garantee he will fail six 3+ saves.

 

Which is probably why I should focus on CC'ing his warriors down as much as I possibly can. I'll give it a shot without the Dreadnoughts (of which I've been using at least one in every single battle) and add some Assault marines and possibly a third Rhino. Having 4 transports on the table should give me a very decent chance of getting 2 or more on his warriors by the third turn.

[Pinky Narfanet]

"It is not destroyed if there are enemies within 1" when it arrivs. Instead move any models that are in the way the minium distance necessary to make space for Monolith"

Page 21 from Necron Codex.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I consulted both the BRB (page 95) and the Codex before I posted.

 

The way I see it, the key is in the phrasing and specifically in the tense of the verbs. The passage in Codex Necrons says, "when [the Monolith] arrives..." Since that is present tense, and the phrasing in the BRB is indicating that the deep striking unit's arrival is in the future ("...because they would land off the table," etc.) [emphasis mine], the conditions in the BRB should be handled first.

 

So you check for the scatter and then determine if the roll on the mishap table is necessary. If it is necessary, then the "Terrible Mishap" result can not happen as the Monolith's Deep Strike rules prevent the Monolith's destruction on the Deep Strike...but the rules only prevent destruction. If the result is "Misplaced" or "Delayed" then the table and BRB take precedence.

 

But that's my interpretation...Others can (and some do) see it differently. But I fear that we're going a bit astray from power armor and into living metal... ;)

[Nyyman]

You have your point, apologising for my mistake.

But I still think that it won't roll for Mishape Table, as you move the models out of its way so that the Monolith isn't within 1" of enemies.

Yes I too think that WBB doesn't work after failing Sweeping Advance (which they will). 4th edition rulebook specifies that even Necron don't get WBB when failing Sweeping Advance. And the Necron Codex was made for 4th edition so I think that it's still all good (for us).

[Brother Tual]

There is a couple of things to consider -

 

this guy is a mate - he plays necrons though... :wacko: why - BUT - things like - I know - Take a Line Breaker - are out -

 

So - Res-orbs make the holy str8 a waste of time, by and large - plasma is great but hard to spam effectively AND reliably (again... this is not friendly) - I dont think that a shooting war is the best option for you UNLESS you go a bit nasty... you simply cant compete with the 3+ - 4+ wbb and then a 4+ monolith...

 

Your only real options left are speed - or combat prowess - The latter is much easier to achieve and much more effective... I love bikes - they are extrodinary VS necrons + eldar + guard - even good vs nids...

 

Assault -

One assault unit.. no chance - thats why he has wraiths... to slow you up... even if you get one unit - immortals and warriors will be lining your claim to fame unit ..

 

I would stick with the dreads... hardly anyone packs anything that can hurt a dread in CC - look at iron clads.. more attacks means more kills - better combat res - better for you - so versatile too - see if he deep strikes that monolith near a pair of these bad boys... no chance... (Multiple hunter killers for first round shooting at... destroyers...4 x Str 8 ap3 is glorious!) MOst important - its TWO units.. and he needs 6+ to even think about hurting them... You can always run and pop smoke..

 

Take just enough shooting to hurt the key units.. then finish the mob off with assault... You wont win every game.. but if he cant roll a hoard of 6+ you have a good chance and it will be close... I think you can get a pair of ironclads with some rockets for the same price as your dreads?

 

Movement -

 

This is hard - Wraiths will contest you - deep strike will reduce the effect of your speed too - the teleport aswell - Whilst good at first - hard to apply unless your mate is a clutz...

 

You also make it hard to win for yourself... instead of the pressure on him, you effectively have to come up with the hoard of "6+"

 

Speed needs a desired effect to be well applied... what is your intention? rhino rush>? Necrons are king in rapid fire range.. not really - maybe tau with some markerlights.. but you know what I mean.. much better than your average marine... and ld10 wont fail unless it is modified... hint - assault...

 

- Captain with command squad in Razorback

- 2 Tactical squads in Rhino’s, both armed with melta and multimelta

unless you can give this purpose... With the dreads they do... or more easily applied purpose.. Rhinos can shield the dreads - reducing much of the mass gauss nastyness... The guys inside can pop in a few shots on nearby units or the wraiths that might tie them up - Then charge in and help mop up...

 

With the assault marines - same deal really - shield and help with the mop up - might pay to send some shots into the same unit being charged.. more open to countering though... the return hits will inevitably hurt.. a spyder or necron lord can drop a few boys in otherwise impossible odds against the dread (ofcourse the spyder has a shot at the dread but it might not (should not) be around.. this is one of those - hurt the key units - things..

[Reinholt]

Never take one vindicator.

 

One vindicator is a fire magnet that will result in your enemy focusing all of his firepower on it until it is gone, and unfortunately, they are not tough enough to withstand this kind of beating.

 

Take two. Maybe three. Especially against Necrons. Do you realize how terrifying three well placed and screened vindicators are to someone who's army vanishes if you blow up enough of their troops? You'll have him doing all kinds of desperate things to stop you.

 

I also agree on mobility; with the necrons teleporting around the board, you want the ability to chase down the key units. In short, that's a pretty strong list, but you have two viable ways that jump out at me to beat it offhand:

 

1 - Neutralize the monolith immediately. If you want to pack a small army of lascannons, Lysander, and some Vindicators, you might well be able to knock it out of the game the moment it shows its face if there is only one.

 

2 - If there is more than one, or he doesn't bulk up on warriors, go for phase out with a lot of high power units. Try to tie up anything he has that shoots well with tactical squads in combat (they are great for locking down immortals or destroyers, who will need to be rescued with veil), and then bring the rest of your force to bear like the hammer of the Emperor upon the warriors to cause a phase out while he's trying to free up his game winners.

[Pinky Narfanet]

You have your point, apologising for my mistake.

But I still think that it won't roll for Mishape Table, as you move the models out of its way so that the Monolith isn't within 1" of enemies.

Yes I too think that WBB doesn't work after failing Sweeping Advance (which they will). 4th edition rulebook specifies that even Necron don't get WBB when failing Sweeping Advance. And the Necron Codex was made for 4th edition so I think that it's still all good (for us).

No need for apologies. We're all friendly-like here. :D I'm just bringing in the results of discussions that I've seen on Necron boards (as they are, at the moment, my primary army). I realize that not everyone is going to see things "my way."