Whats so special about Nurgle Daemon Princes?

[minigun762]

Simply put, why is the Nurgle DP so much scarier and broken than the others? T6 is good sure, but it doesn't next to nothing against the weapons that should be scaring a DP like Plasma, Melta, LasCannons, Missiles and assorted Power Fists/Klaws. The only time I can see it being really helpful is against lots of Dakka, but then again Bolters and the like aren't normally the scariest thing and Iron Hide seems like it would take care of that just as easily and free you up for another mark.

 

If given the choice, I'd imagine Tzeentch would be a better mark. It effective 1/2 the time against everything and its cheaper than either Nurgle or Iron Hide and much cheaper than both.

 

Educate me please if I've missed something obvious, because as it is, Nurgle is good, but I don't see why its the auto-win choice of a new generation.

[==Me==]

T6 and Noxious Touch, that is all.

 

T6 means anti-infantry weapons can't reliably kill you and noxious touch is amazingly amazing.

[eyescrossed]

Not to mention only the slaanesh and nurgle ones can get grenades.

[Mal]

What it comes down to is simply being harder to kill, yes thats only one point in T, and when considering a rise from 4 to 5 the effect against most weapons is minimal, but from 5 to 6 is a whole different ball game. Standard weaponry (Str4) needs a 6 to wound this puppy, so if your in combat with anyone who doesn't have a Str enhancing hit, your going to slaughter them....

 

I faced a nurgle DP with my DA command squad, my squad was kitted for combat and packing power weapons galore.... 36 freaking power weapon hits.... 1 wound. Granted not great dire riolling, but a high Ws combined with that T6 means only the very best out there stands a chance on bringing this bad boy down.

[minigun762]

Hmm I must be underestimating them then.

 

With the Noxious Touch, I really only see it being that useful against T5 and higher. It also does nothing for anti-tank where Unholy Might would help both with wounding and armor penetration.

 

You're totally right that T6 is going to neuter S4 attacks, it halves their effectiveness and thats saying alot. Its just been experience that Bolters and Chainswords aren't what bring down MCs, its that hidden Power Fist/Klaw or those Missiles/LasCannons and the T6 sadly does nothing against it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it. I can see how it would be potent, but it just doesn't seem as scary as people make it out to be.

[==Me==]

Noxious Touch has you wounding a 2+ or wounding a 2+ with re-rolls. With his high WS to go with it, anything you touch is going to die. I run them against Carnifexes and they breeze right through what is normally a feared big bug.

 

T6 won't do much against big guns, but denying the enemy the ability to down your expensive Prince with small arms is what makes it so worthwhile.

[Master Chaplain Astador]

Not to mention if you run them with Grinders, your opponent is more than likely going to focus on the bigger one, being the Grinder. Combined with wings, you can get your prince into combat early on and let him wreck carnage on anything he touches.

[Raptor1313]

Pretty much what the others have said.

 

T6 is essentially immunity to small-arms fire. T5 means that 1/3 of all small-arms fire produces wounds, so someone feeling lucky can start pouring bolter-fire into your princes. With T6? You need six bolter hits to produce a wound reliably. With Iron Hide, you need 3 wounds to reliably put one through. So, suddenly, you need to pour 18 bolter HITS into a Nurgle DP to get a single wound onto him. Given marines hit 2/3 of the time, you need to drop 27 bolter shots into a Prince to put that one wound on him.

 

...this really isn't an efficient use of your small arms. And that's ALSO melee, though it's a little nicer in that power weapons content with a 5+ save instead.

 

As others have noted, there are also the offensive/defensive grenades.

 

The other big killer is Noxious Touch. Vs. infantry, going from killing 'em on 3+ to killing on 2+ is nice, but not that noticeably different.

 

Now go into something with a decent Toughness. Suddenly you're dealing with needing 4+ and 5+ to wound, even with probably a 3+ to hit. Given the base 4 attacks...suddenly it's not so hard to see you doing only a couple wounds. We're only T5 with a 5+ save vs. monstrous creature attacks.

 

...except Nurgle gives us the wound on 2+. We might not get the re-roll, but most MCs have 3-4 wounds. Throw down a charge (5 attacks, if I'm not mistaken) and you'll hit 3-4 attacks. 3-4 wounds. Hey, what do you know? You have a decent shot of just mauling whatever MC you ran up against. Daemons are a slightly different game with invulnerable saves.

 

As for the other princes in comparison...

Khorne is liekly to be cheaper, and pack more attacks. 5 base vs. 4. Iron Hide's pretty much a must. Decent vs. psychic stuff with the save, but it's really not a huge difference vs. an Iron-hide-only DP.

 

Cost: 125 basic. 135 for the save vs. psychic powers.

 

Slaanesh DP:

Better initiative. Needs Iron Hide, still has issues with monsters and the like. The big trick it pulls off is being able to either fire Pavane, or hit 'n' run. Still gets pricey, though. It also gets the offensive/defensive grenades. There's also the Transfixing Gaze, which is nice vs. powerfist sarges and/or bigger gribblies. Still, these are mainly defensive upgrades. You're not as kill, but you might last longer. Note that iron hide's included here because a 5+ doesn't count.

 

Base Cost: 120; 135 for basic grenades/-1 attack. 150 for basic w/ pavane.

 

Tzeentch DP:

Really, the big point here is to get neat shooting powers. Already we're on Soul Grinder territory, and we'll never have something as cool as the S8 AP3 large blast shot. The other temptation is forgoing Iron Hide, but it's a decent change in your durability.

 

Basic cost (w/o hide): 105.

Shootyness: w/ basic Gaze and Bolt of Tzeentch, we're looking at 160. Less durable than a grinder, and if the anti-tank shot is THAT important for you, then 185 for tongue/phlegm on a Grinder.

 

If you want the iron hide, you're still not as durable as a Soul Grinder. You're still not as shooty, you're not melee-capable (...flamer template + S10 punches...)

 

If you want to deliver a Breath of Chaos, then you might consider flamers, which give you jump packs. If you want that kind of mobility with an assault (...that, realistically, might not be in range AFTER said Breath of Chaos) you're looking at 195 for wings + Mark + Breath.

 

Basically, the shooty powers of Tzeentch come on better platforms elsewhere.

 

The Nurgle DP is one of the few things that offers nastiness that we have a hard time finding elsewhere. A Nurgle DP with Iron Hide, Cloud of Flies, and Noxious Touch costs us 155. It mauls anything with a toughness value silly. 215 for Wings, and we have something that's actually approaching the lethality and durability of a Greater Daemon.

 

Bottom line? Nurgle DPs bring a more killy, durable offering than other daemon prince builds.

[Inquisitor_Fox]

what raptor said...

[minigun762]

Thats a great synopsis Raptor, you should build that into a little Daemon tactica because it made total sense to me.

 

Would you agree that a Nurgle DP probably doesn't need both Wings and Iron Hide? My thought processes (other than they're both expensive) is that Wings will get him into close combat faster where he's safer and if he's footslogging, the Iron Hide might help him reach combat alive.

 

Its funny because I didn't even think about adding in a ranged gift to a Tzeentchian Daemon Prince. In my eyes, a MC with a 4+ Inv save for just over 100 points is a steal. But then again I tend to run things bare bones when possible. Since you're limited to only 3 Heavy slots, at higher games I'm sure a decked out Nurgle Prince would be better. Its mostly the pricetag that scares me away, 200+ points, thats damn near another Greater Daemon.

 

EDIT: Thanks Eyescrossed for Psychic vs Gift

[eyescrossed]

Daemons don't have psychic powers.

[Sons of Horus]

don't forget poisoned weapons >.<

[Captain Malachi]

T6 and Noxious Touch, that is all.

That, plus grenades. Play a game against one and tell me it's not scary :lol:

[Spacefrisian]

T6 and Noxious Touch, that is all.

That, plus grenades. Play a game against one and tell me it's not scary ^_^

 

It gets even more scarier when Skarbrand is with them.

[Master Chaplain Astador]

T6 and Noxious Touch, that is all.

That, plus grenades. Play a game against one and tell me it's not scary :)

 

It gets even more scarier when Skarbrand is with them.

Yeah but skarbrand is over-priced for the good he does. My normal Bloodthirster is better than Skarbrand and cheaper. B)

[Mr Peon]

while I agree that the soul grinder is scary, and has some great shooting ability, it can still be taken down by one lucky shot, where as a DP has to be hit at least 4 times to be taken down and is always going to get a save on hits as well. Sure smaller arms fire has a chance to get in, but its as stated a 1 in 27 chance for a marine, let alone the troops of most armies.

[Inquisitor_Fox]

while I agree that the soul grinder is scary, and has some great shooting ability, it can still be taken down by one lucky shot,

 

had this happen to me recently was really annoying, and my Nurgle DP lasts to the end of all but one game i have played and in that one he had 1 wound left when he got charged by an Avatar... not really all that survivable. lol

[minigun762]

Its a trade off really.

Soul Grinder is immune to S6 and less weapons and basically immune to S7 (glancing + Daemonic Possession = not much of a threat)

 

That means it takes a S8 weapon or higher to really threaten him, those aren't as common as people may want to believe, but you're right it only takes 1 lucky shot to kill it.

 

The Nurgle DP can be hurt by S3 and higher weapons but in all fairness, it really is only threatened by S5 or higher.

 

I think it all depends on what you're up against.

 

Just for poops and laughs, lets do the Math-Hammer between the two comparing it to Krak Missiles (S8)

 

Against a Soul Grinder 1 Krak fired @ BS4 would hit 66% of the time. It would get through the armor 33% of the time. 50% of the time its going to glance and at worst immobilized or weapon destroyed. 50% of the time it penetrates, it will kill it 33% of the time. That means that 1 Krak Missile has a 1 x 0.66 x 0.33 x 0.5 x 0. 33 = 0.036 or a 3.6% chance to kill a Soul Grinder outright. That also means it takes roughly 27 Missiles to kill a Soul Grinder

 

Against a Nurgle DP 1 Krak fired @ BS4 would hit 66% of the time. It would get through the armor save 100% of the time. It would wound 83% of the time. It would get through the Inv Save 66% of the time. That means 1 Krak Missile has a 1 x 0.66 x 1.0 x 0.83 x 0.66 = 0.37 chance to wound a Nurgle Daemon Prince. That also means its takes roughly 11 Krak Missiles to kill a Nurgle Daemon Prince.

 

Thats less than 1/2 of what it takes to kill a Soul Grinder. The one issue is that the Soul Grinder could be rendered immobilized and/or have all its weapons destroyed rendering it as good as dead before being actually killed.

[Mr Peon]

Very few armies would field a team that had nothing that could get through armour. Regardless of what it is there are many things that can hit armour and kill it in one hit. this might be meltabombs, lascanons, meltas etc.

 

Sure the maths of it against one specific weapon would suggest that it would be better to have a soul grinder. but basically both are going to be hard to kill with light weapons, (str 5 has a chance on the soul grinders rear), both will not like getting hit by very heavy weapons, and the mid ranged things it's going to be about even on.

[Inquisitor_Fox]

which is why in 1500 point armies i field both. Also you can factor in the kill abilities of the two, a nurgle DP has higher Weapon Skill and Ballistics but a smaller range of shooty'ness in terms of "weapons", the higher strength of the SG is countered by Noxious touch but as minigun stated it has more suvivability... but then if you look at the psycological effect of a soul grinder in a game you willsee that they are always targeted before the NDP, i think it is bigger target syndrome but meh.

 

But as the thread is whyis the NDP so sick... well it is just that compared to the other DPs he is so, comparatively, hard to kill!!

[Captain Malachi]

But as the thread is whyis the NDP so sick... well it is just that compared to the other DPs he is so, comparatively, hard to kill!!

And killier, that's what does it, not only is he harder to kill, but he takes more of the enemy down on the way.

[minigun762]

Sure the maths of it against one specific weapon would suggest that it would be better to have a soul grinder

 

Thats true, but I picked what I felt was a fairly representative weapon Strength (8) as Power Fists, Meltas and Missiles all have it.

 

My point was more to dismiss this idea that "Oh vehicles can be taken out by 1 shot so they suck".

"Can" and "likely to happen" are very different and I think thats where people underestimate vehicles and overestimate multi-wound creatures.

[AkiraCho]

they are good for tying down squads in melee, they essentially are a harder to kill dreadnought that can also fly, for about the same points.

 

power fist or not you are only getting about 3 attacks, and 1-2 of them will most likely miss.

 

i have the wounds and the invulnerable save to almost garentee walking away as your squad does most likely nothing.

 

tanks are defacto quite good. but they are a differant play type. noone here i think is underestimating them, they are simply a differant role thatn a demon prince.