Line Of Sight question...

[ZiggyStardust]

How do you do with different sized models and the new line of sight rules? I understand as an example grots have a better time hiding behind objects rather then orcs. But how do you do with different sized models in the same squad?

 

Example: Sniper scouts. One guy is kneeling. If the squad is 50% behind cover and are about to shoot at an enemy, how do you treat the kneeling guy, who might not have line of sight, though his pals do? Do you allow him to shoot?

 

Same thing, only they are being shot AT. All but the kneeling guy is dead, is he then treated as out of sight or do you use how the majority of the models height/width to determinate wether he's out ofsight or not?

 

Thnx on beforehand!

 

//Ziggy

[Ganuus]

Which brings up the question of true-scaled marines. I believe somewhere it said that kneeling models were treated as the same height, so people don't try and model things to stretch the new cover rules, so I assume the same would apply for biggerized as smallerized.

[Exhumed]

Straight fact of the rules would be the simplicity of True Line of Sight. If the model can see, then he can shoot. Bigger models might be more visible to the enemy but can also fire backat more targets. Vice versa for smaller models.

You just need to have a good look at each bloke in the squad if there's inconsistency, and decide based on his coverage, or lack thereof.

[Mal]

There was a Q&A about this, but I can't remember where I read it, it covered things like people modelling the entire army laying down to maximise cover, IIRC from the Q&A it was not accepted, but as I said, I can't remember where I read it so I may be a little off.

[Narthecium]

I would say just use some common sense to figure whether or not a unit can be seen. While obviously a jetpack troop (sister, assault marine, raptor, etc.) can be modeled to look like they're zooming in the air, it would provide a distinct disadvantage for you to do so. I don't think the intent is to crush creativeness with stuff like that or to encourage it with the above mentioned laying down.

 

I'm of the opinion that it's between you and your opponent to decide upon "Yeah that guy can see that guy" or "Nah that rock is pretty high and although he's a marine and tall that's gotta be twice his height even at true scale" etc. If you know what I'm saying. :D

[Koremu]

Remembering here that a model can see 'through' 2" of cover area terrain without penalty if he's inside that area terrain, and any model in base-contact with a ledge, wall or similar obstacle can see over it regardless of model positioning...

 

Model positioning has little or no effect on the model itself shooting.

[Mal]

until you look at the argument of shooting through other units... then your faced with 2 sides of the fence, one side says if you shoot through its a cover save, regardless. The other says if your jammy enough to have a model a head taller your opponent doesn't get a cover save... Im not in this group. IMHO the rule reads as: If you shoot through another unit they get a cover save, if you shoot over they do not, however the issue comes when defining shooting over someone.... im my opinion you need to be on an elevated platform to shoot over someone... others say if your head is above them, you shoot over them.

[Hexx]

For shooting-it's what he can see, if the rest of the unit is standing, and he's kneeling he might not have LOS to the unit.

 

Not sure I get teh second question- if he's a part of the squad he can be hit (when the rest of the squad can be seen)

If the rest of the squad is killed by a previous shooting attack, and the enemy has no LOS to the kneeling model, they can't shoot at him.

[Steelmage99]

The rules for drawing LOS are perfectly clear. You look at each model.

 

If one model is kneeling, and due to this is prevented from drawing LOS, then he cannot shoot. Only models that can draw LOS can shoot.

 

Should a person choose to model his Jump Infantry in cool jumping-off-rocks-and-ledges-poses, he does indeed make his models easier to shoot (by making it easier to draw LOS to them). Should he choose to model them crouched and crawling, he will make it harder. Modeling can be used to your advantage and it has been so for the last 2 editions.

 

There are no Size categories, average sizes and pretend anymore. Only TLOS (to a certain extent :lol:).

 

 

PS. Note that I am in no way, shape or form saying that this is a good idea. A player doing so will most likely run out of people to play with really fast, as he IMO should.

[TheReclusiarch]

Personally we do it like this (i think I read this somewhere, but can't find it at the moment). The kneeling/jumpingmodels have the same height as a normal model that stands on his own two feet. That was you can't punish someone for having cool poses, and you wont give an unfair advantage to anyone that has kneeling models.

 

That's how we do it around here to keep things fast, fun and fair. :blush:

[Steelmage99]

And that is cool. :devil:

As long as you realize that it is a houserule and you might run into a different/stricter interpretation of the rules at other venues.

[Ace of Gods]

Just remember, that models cant move on the bases themselves. (though hopefully well have some improvements in that in the future. :o ) so you can measure from anywhere on the base from the model, or a similar odel that is posed in a standard standing position for the model. Models in the fight are only static cause there plastic, and not real. The real warriors would be runnign around, fighting moving, etc. So we use the base in our group to see where you can fire from, and then the basic height of the model from a unit that would be normally standing if it wasnt set up in a pose or kneeling, jumping etc. I think this is somewhat what GW had to say on it too if i was not mistaken. At a tournament, if someone is using a model on raised base, or kneeling/sitting etc, they place another model in its place to determine if he can be hit or shoot, then replace it back with the model in its amazing pose.

[Steelmage99]

Indeed GW has something to say about this.

 

They say that TLOS is the way to go. No switching of models and no pretending. The model is as the model is.

 

LOS is drawn from the eyes of a firing model to the head/torso/arms/legs of a targeted model. A kneeling model will be harder to hit and have a corresponding harder time to draw LOS.

 

Using the base for anything other than measuring range (when it comes to shooting) is fine. Pretending your models are really standing up is fine. Just keep in mind that you are using a houserule and might run into people that don't use the same houserules.

[Wayward]

I think the fact that if you can be seen you can shoot but if they dont see you y cant shoot brings justice to the whole thing. So everything is like it is modelled and no pretending them odel is standing, coruched, and whatnot. Tehre are plenty of rules in the new edition for covering up eventualities... if go to gorund +1 cover save, its pretty much stated that banners/weapons/hair/pointing arms/etc. do not count for line of sight. Thats how far abstractation goes for line of sight.

[King Tiger]

I just draw LOS from kneeling models by replacing it temporarily with a standing model, sure its not quite in the rules, but since the rules GW produce are crap and they admit there just a GUIDELINE to playing your games, who cares, especially if everyone does it

[Steelmage99]

King Tiger, that is a massive cop-out.

 

Indeed one might view the entire rulebook as a suggestion on how to play, but what are we discussing in this forum? A forum named "Official Rules", no less?

 

You can replace all you like, just remember that it is a houserule. You might run into some people how play by the "real" rules.

[King Tiger]

King Tiger, that is a massive cop-out.

who cares what it is, if it works and saves time having stupid arguments until GW actually learn how to do a proper rulebook

Indeed one might view the entire rulebook as a suggestion on how to play

which is what GW views it as

You can replace all you like, just remember that it is a houserule. You might run into some people who play by the "real" rules.

one day I might, but thats not likely to ever happen unless its someone who loves arguing for 3/4's of a game over a silly little rule for toys

[Oldenhaller]

King Tiger, that is a massive cop-out.

who cares what it is, if it works and saves time having stupid arguments until GW actually learn how to do a proper rulebook

 

I'd say in a rules forum where rules are being discussed, disected and disagreed upon the people who would care are the people discussing things. You could ask the moderati to put a large post up stating that 'GW's rules are crap, feel free to ignore them, no need to post here' but I'm not sure it'd get very far as an idea. While it's nice to avoid arguements and want to play the game rather to enjoy it, that's laudable...however this is best done on a level playing field where everyone agrees upon the same set of rules. If one player decides that a rule is too badly written and feels like ignoring it is that fair upon their opponent? I'll happilly admit GW's rules are full of holes, but

 

You can replace all you like, just remember that it is a houserule. You might run into some people who play by the "real" rules.

one day I might, but thats not likely to ever happen unless its someone who loves arguing for 3/4's of a game over a silly little rule for toys

 

Really? While I find your desire to give your opponents the most enjoyable posssible I have to question if this is the right hobby for you....between describing the rules as crap and said rules being for silly little toys....are you really glad you're here?

 

 

~O

[King Tiger]

I have to question if this is the right hobby for you....between describing the rules as crap and said rules being for silly little toys....are you really glad you're here?

its the right hobby, just not the right system, and Forums don't exist for the lesser known better systems that far surpass GW (and are usually written by some bloke in a shed :P ), so I gotta be somewhere

[Oldenhaller]

mmmm sheds

 

:P

[Playa]

Hey,

 

If the squad is 50% behind cover and are about to shoot at an enemy, how do you treat the kneeling guy

 

First, never leave a squad 50% in Cover. 51% confers a much better Save. ;- )

Second, there's a difference between Cover and Concealment -

Cover provides a Save, Concealment thwarts LoS.

 

Is your Scout claiming a 4+ Humidity Save or actually hidden from view by enemies?

Behind a half-inch wall of wire, he can claim a Save and still draw LoS to enemy Units.

Behind an inch of Ferrocrete, he's in Concealment, and can't target what he can't "see".

 

Same thing, only they are being shot AT. All but the kneeling guy is dead

 

A model in Concealment can't shoot or be shot by non-Barrage weapons. Pose is immaterial.

He can become a casualty, at your discretion, if visible squadmates take enough Wounds.

Remember, Kneeling Guy's position in the Unit Marching Order is your call.

 

As a rule, Shooty Units want tall guys on point; Fighty Units want Shorty up there.

In all cases, the rules apply to unmodified Citadel models glued to their bases.

These are the models the devs used to playtest the v5 rules.

 

GW doesn't sell embiggened Marines, emerging Wraiths or wading Cadians.

"Creative modeling" is super keen for dioramas and showcases.

In games, we're expected to use the same models devs use.

 

Or get opponent blessing for your "creativity".

 

 

Playa

[King Tiger]

These are the models the devs used to playtest the v5 rules.

your forgetting, GW don't play test, they only say they do, if they did they wouldn't need Faq's every week