Command squad vs. Assault squad?

[tedwin183]

Alright. I am having a dilemma. I was going to build a command squad with 4 flamers, 4 power weapons, a banner and the apothecary, load them up in a land raider and send them hurling into my opponent's lines. It is 5 guys at slightly over 200 points. I think 210 to be exact. Then, just today I realized that maybe a 10 man assault squad with a power weapon serg and 2 flamers would be better suited for anti infantry assault. The squad just listed weighs in at 225 points, doesn't have as many power weapon swings or flamer hits, nor does it have feel no pain...but it does have the advantage of numbers...and attacks on the charge by a great margin. Additionally, 2 flamer shots before the charge is still extremely devastating and if I run a jump chaplain with them...well, you know how that goes.

 

So, my question is: Which is better? Where would one be more useful than the other? Is there one clear winner between the two of these? I'm really at a loss right now.

 

I'd like to hear anyone and everyone's opinion on this. It will most likely decide what I end up with. Fire away.

[StormTAG]

I'd go with the Assault Squad all the way. For three reasons:

 

Assault Squads are self-propelled. Landraider is great and all but using it to transport 5 Power Armored models seems kinda silly to me.

 

Assault Squads are much more resilient. When an Assault squad loses 2 members, it's lost 20% of its fighting capability (roughly.) When your squad dies, it loses 40%. More bodies, more resilient.

 

Assault Squad is much killier against a lot of different units. Sure, the Command squad is swinging 12 Power weapon attacks while carrying flamers. That's... Not really that amazing. Only swinging at Terminators are you going to kill more with your command squad than the other way around. Against any thing less heavily armored than that (AKA everything) you're better off with the assault marines.

[tedwin183]

anyone else?

[Warp Angel]

Killhammer says: Assault Squad for the win. You have more destructive potential at that points cost (higher K1), equal or better time to target - packs or in LR with no packs (lower or equal K2), same resiliancy (D1), but takes longer to kill (D2). S is generally (but not always) better.

 

Command Squad goes down to Assault Squad for 225 point CC/Anti Infantry unit.

 

UNLESS fluff reasons or army synergy reasons says "Command Squad".

[Koremu]

Depends, really, on the situational factor.

 

The Assault Squad will fare better against hordes and for general anti-infantry.

 

The Command Squad will fare better against MEQ+

[StormTAG]

The Command Squad will fare better against MEQ+

 

Some mathhammer...

 

An assault squad w/ Power Weapon sarge, 7 BP/CCW, 2 Flamers vs/ MEQ:

 

8 Bolt Pistols = 32/36(.889) Dead

2 Flamers (Assuming 3 models a piece) = 36/36 (1) Dead

25 Str 4 CCW = 75/36(2.083) Dead

4 Str 4 PW = (36/36)1 Dead

 

= 179/36 (4.972) Kills =

 

A command squad w/4 Power Weapons, 4 Flamers + BP/CCW apoth:

 

1 Bolt Pistol = 4/36(.111) Dead

4 Flamers (Assuming 3 Models a piece) = 72/36 (2) Dead

4 Str 4 CC = 12/36 (.333) Dead

12 Str 4 PW = 108/36 (3) Dead

 

= 196/36 (5.444) Kills =

 

So, for basically 17/36 (.472) dead MEQ on the charge, you gain 5 extra bodies and a lot more horde munching capabilities.

 

No contest for me, but there ya go.

[tedwin183]

Yeah, I am really leaning towards the assault squad now. The major reason that my girlfriend brought to my attention is that the command squad will HAVE to ride in something to get to the front lines. Land Raider being the safest ride will end up costing over 400 points for the whole ordeal. The assault squad is exceptionally mobile without any transport, saving huge amounts of points. I think it is the assault squad all the way.

[Koremu]

Note I said MEQ+, not just MEQ. The harder the target gets, the less effective the Assault Squad becomes.

 

If your problem is Hordes however, then the Assault Squad is the way forward.

 

EDIT: And a Razorback is a no-brainer with a Command Squad. Heavy Flamers preferably.

[Warp Angel]

The harder the squad is, the better off you are fielding TH/SS Terminators and a Land Raider.

 

And for the cost of a kitted out Command Squad vs. 5 terminators (of any kind), it's not much of a stretch to go with the Terminators.

 

Same attacks, better saves, generally better firepower, better CC...

[StormTAG]

Note I said MEQ+, not just MEQ. The harder the target gets, the less effective the Assault Squad becomes.

 

If your problem is Hordes however, then the Assault Squad is the way forward.

 

EDIT: And a Razorback is a no-brainer with a Command Squad. Heavy Flamers preferably.

 

Not neccessarily. The addition of an invulnerable save, for example, only reduces the kill power a little for the Assault squad, while it could be much more significant for the command squad.

 

Let's assume a T4 3+/4+ model. The assault squad's 4 PW swings will lose .5 kills. The 12 PW swings of the command squad will lose 1.5 kills.

 

So, for a T4 3+/4+ model, the assault squad becomes 161/36 (4.472) kills while the Command squad becomes 142/36 (3.944) kills.

 

 

It's not so easy as to make a blanket statement like that. You are correct in that the command squad will do better against Terminators, MEQ w/ FNP and a few other really tough troop types. But even then, the kill factor doesn't out weigh the lack of bodies.

 

And I definitely agree. Razorback is indeed a no-brainer w/ a command squad. I wish I could add bodies to the command squad though. 10 w/ BP/CCW and FNP in a Landraider would be redonkulous.

[Warp Angel]

And I definitely agree. Razorback is indeed a no-brainer w/ a command squad. I wish I could add bodies to the command squad though. 10 w/ BP/CCW and FNP in a Landraider would be redonkulous.

 

Well, with the exception of FNP, that's what the Vanguard Vets are for.

 

And if you're willing to play BA and spend 30 points for the "extra" Death Company, you can fill a Crusader to 16 BP/CCW/FNP/Rending/Furious Charge Marines.

 

So 250 for the Crusader, and 480 for the DC, and you've got yourself a slaughterfest against just about anything.

[StormTAG]

Yeah, but that FNP is crucial.

 

And 480 points for a 16 man Death Company from hell sounds fun. Maybe for Apocalypse though.

[tedwin183]

I think another large factor people are forgetting about is intelligence. Who, honestly, is going to take this squad ad charge it directly into a terminator squad or something of like nastiness without softening it up first with shooting...or...just avoiding it all together and just shooting it apart. I think assault squads tend to excel at jumping around the battlefield, denying your opponent any real chance to get dug in. By the time he digs his stuff in, you're into him hacking and slashing. But these hypotheticals are very good. And that also reminded me that I need to buy a razorback or two.

[Koremu]

Yeah, but that FNP is crucial.

 

And 480 points for a 16 man Death Company from hell sounds fun. Maybe for Apocalypse though.

 

If we're getting silly...

 

10 Vanguard Vets with Dual Lightning Claw + Chaplain with Digital Weapons.

 

Sure, it's 620 points, but 4 attacks per model, rerolling all failed wounds and all failed hits on the charge, with no armour saves...

 

22.5 MEQ kills average

[StormTAG]

Yeah, but that FNP is crucial.

 

And 480 points for a 16 man Death Company from hell sounds fun. Maybe for Apocalypse though.

 

If we're getting silly...

 

10 Vanguard Vets with Dual Lightning Claw + Chaplain with Digital Weapons.

 

Sure, it's 620 points, but 4 attacks per model, rerolling all failed wounds and all failed hits on the charge, with no armour saves...

 

22.5 MEQ kills average

 

 

Chappy only rerolls the first failed wound.

[tedwin183]

The point is to NOT have a 620 point sink in the list though...

 

But i have played a 10 man vanguard squad before with a chap. Ridiculous.

[Reinholt]

My view:

 

The assault squad is vastly superior, because that's not a terribly efficient design for a command squad, to be honest.

 

Consider:

 

If you want to butcher troops in assault, and they are not dedicated super-nasty assault troops, your best option in the marine list is an assault squad, point for point. They have good base attacks, are fast, can take flamers, and can take a power weapon or (my preference) a power fist. They are the single most points efficient unit in the marine army for this purpose that has speed and power armor (scouts with combat blades are the most points efficient, but lack the jump packs and power armor).

 

There is nothing a command squad has to offer that is going to match up with this on a point for point basis if you are going after troops.

 

The command squad has a captain with them, but they are already clocking in at 115 points before you give them any upgrades. Likewise, they can't match the volume of attacks from an assault squad, but they can exceed their rate of power weapon attacks. Once you add up the numbers, the points cost of the squad can get pretty high (for instance, all power weapons is 190 points for five guys with FNP). At that point, I'd rather be taking assault terminators for the points, and getting TH/SS guys who insta-kill a lot of things, scare the hell out of most vehicles, and have storm shields.

 

So why take a command squad, especially if you aren't putting them in a Land Raider so they can assault immediately?

 

I'm not entirely sold on command squads this time around, given the points cost, as of yet.

[Marlow]

I'm not entirely sold on command squads this time around, given the points cost, as of yet.

I want to use the Command squad but can not see a good way of going about it...

 

Put them on bikes, they cost more than Terminators...

Kit them out for Melee, again cost more than Terminators...

 

So what is left? Give them Storm Bolters and support the Captain shooting out of Razorback Hatches until they get close to something to assault...

[StormTAG]

Semi-basic command squads are cheap counter assault, IMO. Take the champion, give everyone BP/CCW and put yourself opposite your opponent's nastiest CC troops. With FNP they can take some killing by units like Berserkers or Orks. Units like Banshees and the like with lots of PWs can give you issues though.

 

I tend to take them as above but with a Razorback. Under 200 points for 5 guys w/ 3 attacks a piece, a mobile wall with a Twin-linked Heavy bolter and the same survivability against non-power weapons.

[Koremu]

The Razorback doesn't have any fire points, IIRC.

 

The thing with the command squad is that you can give them an incredibly varied selection of equipment and have an answer to everything. Swiss-Army unit.

 

The other is that you can tool all of the veterans up with special weapons AFAICR.

[greatcrusade08]

I was juggling with the idea of running an 8th company (quickly shelved in favour of 10th).

My command squad was like this:

 

Company champ

Apothecary

Power sword/claw

2 meltaguns (can be flamers)

 

All on bikes for Relentless T5 FNP and if led by a chappy rerolls to hit.

And the command squad is 255 points

 

But for standard games i have 10 man assault squad with fist and 2 flamers at 225 points

 

GC08

[AkiraCho]

just ignore the command squad, assault squad all the way...ALL THE WAY.

[tedwin183]

Yeah, after doing some number crunching and some thinking about how I tend to play the game, the assault squad seems like the best option. If I need something that nasty in assault, I'll just take 5 assault terminators in a land raider.