Shiodome Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 so... came up in a recent game: In the shooting phase a unit of tactical marines shots at a vindicator commanded by Brother-Sergeant Chronus. The vehicle exploded, and chronus passed his 3+ to survive. My unit was in assault range of chronus (including after moving through the crater from the recently destroyed vindicator). Should the shooting squad be allowed to assault the tank commander? it really looks like a case of sloppy wording to me, with the discription of chronus leaving his tank being 'cinematically descriptive' rather than using any of the lexicon established by the universal rules. if he'd 'disembarked' i'd have said he could be assaulted, but instead he just 'leaps free' (or something like that) and the word 'disembark' isn't used thoughts? does leaving a vehicle count as disembarking by deffinition, and is the reference to being able to assualt units disembarked from a destroyed transport a case of them only saying 'transport' because at the time of writing the BBB, that was absolutely the only way an infantry model would appear from a vehicle destruction. (if you're completely lost as to what i'm on about, look at pg67 BBB, paragraph begining "Note: Remember..." in 'effects of damage on passengers. an also chronus rules, pg89 C:SM) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandolphon Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 You need to track down somebody who ran a lot of Guard tanks back in 3rd Edition... they used to have crew escape mechanisms and you'd get D3 crew members after the tank was destroyed... Of course you could shoot and assault separate units back then too, so I that's not a good comparison anymore. Guess I'll have to dig out the codex and look... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 I'd have to say yes you can, in much the same way that if Squad A shoots at Squad B and kills them to a man, they can assauly Squad C. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Where do you see such a rule, Mal? I see the rulebook page 33 "A unit that fired in the Shooting phas can only assault the unit it shot at - it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at." Exceptions are noted as being; Page 34 "If the assaulting unit shot in the Shooting phase then it must declare its assault against the unit it shot at, but it can engage other enemies as described here." Page 67 "However, if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot at it may assault the now embarked passengers if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules. The first still requires the targeted squad to be present and the second is a special exception made to transports. Unless I have missed something (which can happen, of course) then the statement "If squad A shots and kills Squad B, they can then assault Squad C" is a bit of an overstatement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 I'd not say that any of the transport rules come into it. Chronos is an upgrade for the tank and is thus part of its unit You've shot the tank and destroyed it but part of the unit is still there - i.e chronos The type of the unit changes from tank to independent character but it's still the same unit As it's the unit you shot at previously, as per the assault rules you can charge him. If your opponent was daft enough to put chronos that close to said attackers then he deserves to get butchered i'm afraid as he can be placed anywhere within 2" of where the tank was - so up to a rhino length plus to inches away from the attackers which is thus 1 inch+rhino inches+2 inches...well out of assault range. ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Oops, your right steelmage, thats an ancients rule... heh... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 I don't see how he can be the same unit. He even switches unit-type when he leaves a destroyed vehicle - from Vehicle to Infantry. He switches statline - from FA: X, SA: Y, RA: Z..... to WS: 4, BS: 5.... I believe this is an issue in dire need of an FAQ. As is the parallel issue of wether the destroyed vehicle give up its KP, if Chronus gives up a seperate KP if destroyed alongside the vehicle or if he does after. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Doesn't he behave as an IC that can't join units when he 'leeps free'? I would look it up but I don't have my C:SM with me here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 You are right, Mal. It does indeed say he becomes an Independent Character. *slaps forehead* That sort of handles that problem. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 yeah he does...thing is he can't join another unit until his next movement phase so it's not be an issue on that assault turn. To prevent the assault you could even place him behind another unit so long as he's still within 2" of where the vehicle was. Can't be charged as you can't move your mini's within 1" of a unit you're not assaulting. ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1822741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Very simple answer here. If unit A shoots the vehicle and destoys it, UNLESS it is a transport and the transported units disembarks, then no, unit A can not make any assault this turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1823568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 yeah he does...thing is he can't join another unit until his next movement phase so it's not be an issue on that assault turn. To prevent the assault you could even place him behind another unit so long as he's still within 2" of where the vehicle was. Can't be charged as you can't move your mini's within 1" of a unit you're not assaulting. ~O Uhm, yes you can. p34 "Moving Assaulting Models". In 4th you were only allowed to do so with the models you charge, 5th the line makes no difference between those you charge and those you don't for this rule. The assault phase is the only time you are allowed to do so, I assume they were inspired by the Tau's Skimmer screen in 4th to include this rule. As for assaulting Chronus, go with what feels right. Creates a funny situation though if you stick him in a transport and both he and the unit disembark. I would say, sure he can be charged, if he can be reached. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1823739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Actually, I'm with Oldenhaller on this one. It says that Chronos counts as an upgrade for the tank. If an upgrade doesn't count as part of a tank, then my hunter killer missiles will be moving around the table separate from their vehicle, until they have a nice rear armor shot lined up. Regardless, this should be a non-issue in a casual game. It's clear that you SHOULD be able to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1824862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Actually, I'm with Oldenhaller on this one. Groovy :blink: To use a similar example, if you were to shoot up a scout squad leaving only the old bald scout guy (his name escapes me at this exact juncture - embarasingly) would you be able to assault him? Of course you would - an upgrade for the same unit and thus can be assaulted. -O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1824878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Telion good old Sgt. Telion, Good point too. As an upgrade i would count him as part of the tank "unit" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1825701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiodome Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 so, rather than worrying about disembarking rules, i should be able to assault chronos simply because he is part of the unit i shot at? he's an upgrade for the tank, i've shot at the tank, in my assault phase he's in range, so him being part of the unit i shot i can assault him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1827966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 so, rather than worrying about disembarking rules, i should be able to assault chronos simply because he is part of the unit i shot at? he's an upgrade for the tank, i've shot at the tank, in my assault phase he's in range, so him being part of the unit i shot i can assault him? exactly. were you to shoot a transport and force a disembarkation (explode/wreck) then you could assault the transported unit by the same set of rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1828353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Two completely different situations, Nighthawks. In one you are allowed to assault because he is in effect the same unit that you shot at. The other is being allowed to shoot at a transported unit forced to disembark by Wreck/Explode. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1828378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 but they work the same way, regardless of the semantic differences. the rules set covers both scenarios. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1828427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 I thought you meant that it was the same rule (ie one rule (to rule them all :lol:))that allowed both charges. My bad. Indeed the same rule set (ie the Warhammer 40K Rulebook) allows both charges. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/155980-assaulting-disembarked-units-with-squad-a/#findComment-1828954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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