Long fangs a point sink?

[LPetersson]

I've read quite a few comments here on B&C where people have said that this cadre of veterans are a point sink which I read as 'not worth the points'...

 

I'm wondering how you guys use them, because they work darned well for me.

 

So far I've had most luck with a load out of 2xPlasma Cannons and 2xLasCannons.

 

How do you guys use yours?

I'm especially interested in how they were used by those of you who consider them a point sink before you stopped using them...

[Level]

Hi LPetersson.

 

I am glad that your long fangs are working for you. I don't have my dex with me right now but if i remember correctly a squad with that kind of loadout would cost around 250 or 260 points, (it's been a while since I used them). Thats about the same as a land raider of any variant.

 

there is no doubt that the long fangs can do some damage, if properly placed they can kill all kinds of stuff but every time you get shot at you are potentially losing a very expensive model.

 

take the land raider as an alternative, two twin linked las cannons, a twin linked HB and a multi melta if you wish and you can transport a whole pack of other marines and keep them safe for the same cost.

 

I'm not saying that they are no good. they are. but there are alternatives that are the same price and do more.

take two vindicators for example, or three land speeder typhoons that pop 6 krak missiles and 9 HB shots out per turn at three different targets.

[Mal]

Well what I recommend is throwing a wolf guard and some fenrasian wolves in there for ablative wounds.

 

Yes long fangs can be expensive, very expensive.. but they are also potentially the most useful heavy unit in the game... Just don't go over the top with them.

[Vampyrer0me0]

I only field Long Fangs in larger games (2500 +) but the load out i use is Plasma and Heavy bolters which keeps them a little cheaper then the huge amount of points you end up paying for those las canons. In my local group we get alot of horde armies so this works wonders for me.

[Ullr Direfang]

i use them, not very often but i do. i can run any layout of them, except for multi-meltas. but as was said before, there are units that wont get killed right out from a luck template hit or a massed amount of heavy fire. i played a dawn of war game, where when they came on the next turn the were wipe out from fire from a landraider and a tactical squad (nearly every shot hit and they only had a 5+cover from the big stuff).

 

but there are times when they have been very good to me too. mostly because people ask about them and i tell them that they are "the oldest non-HQ unit in my army and they don't get some of the special rules because of their age. and they are the only heavy weapon toting "normal" guys in my army." people tend to say "oh well i will leave them alone then" which is were they tend to be very good. but other time are in big games and apoc games. people know they are good, but with 2 LR, 2 preds, and a vindi on the table along with any of my three or four longfang packs on the table, they don't know who to shoot at. i have been told by a guy i played an apoc game with that he hated me for making him have to make the hard choice of shooting at my pred w/ lascannons, my LR, or my LF pack with 4 LC. he shoot at the LR did nothing and lost 6 of his IG tanks thanks to split fire. so they can be used more psychologically against the enemy.

[Korhal Ragingspirit]

I use my Long Fangs from time to time with good success. Lately I have been fielding them with a WGBL CML/SB/PF accompanied by 4 fenrisian wolves. Not only does it give the unit a sick amount of firepower but it also gives the unit a buffer. It is an expensive unit which I only use in higher point games though.

[roosterpfunk69]

Well what I recommend is throwing a wolf guard and some fenrasian wolves in there for ablative wounds.

 

How can you do this? Wolves are the body gaurds for IC's. I wish you could thou. I fyou are fefering to wasteing a WGBL by putting him in a Long Fang squad.. that's points out the window

 

 

Please don't bypass the swear filter, Max_Dammit B&C mod

[WG Vrox]

I fyou are fefering to wasteing a WGBL by putting him in a Long Fang squad.. that's points out the window

 

Yes, this is what he was suggesting and considering the WGBL can provide assult support as well as leave the pack and move for a better shot, the points are not too crazy. Wtih a WGBL in TDA / CML some wolves, you still keep the ability to split fire and now have a BS5 firing two missles a turn as well. Not a waste of points in my book, but yes makes it one heck of an expensive unit. I go with 3 LF 2 LC 1 ML , WGBL CML 3 wolves about 350.

 

WG Vrox

[TAVAAR]

Common concensus is that they are effective if used right and expensive so I won't go over that.

 

One way that I have found to be fairly effective is 2PC's, 2LC's -or- 4PC's.

Against Horde armies 2HB's, ML, PC (for the tougher stuff).

Then stick 4 wolves and WGBG with either TDA/CML/FB/other one handed item -or- PA/(LC or PC).

 

I haven't found any argument against PC's with BS 5.

 

The first option leaves more tactical flexibility with less focus but works better. The PA WGBG option does leave the unit lacking for CC punch (if you should ever be unfortunate enough to need it) but has been useful in the effectiveness of the fire output into specific targets. The horde ran extremely successfully against orks.

[Grey Mage]

They WERE the most potent marine heavy weapon squad in the game.... now they are just fragile. The ability to split fire lost all its shine when normal marines got their combat squads. Now for about fifty points more they too can split their fire or combine their fire, and have the extra wounds.

 

Of course that doesnt change how effective long fangs are on their own. They are still valuable and still a unit to through down when you need them... But that only ends up beinga bout 1/10 for me. Still I havent been dissapointed when I have.

[WolfLordLars]

A Pack of Long Fangs, with the Pack leader, minus any gear at all runs 108pts.

 

Now, add in the weapons (in this case, 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Plasma Cannons/Lascannons) would be 218. Thats only 10 more points than 2 HB instead of the 2 ML (and the ML are much more useful overall).

 

So, 218pts without giving the pack leader anything (like a meltagun or power weapon).

 

 

218 is ALOT of points for 5 infantry models. Others can give a comparison with vehicle points, but being nearly the price of a Land Raider says alot.

 

 

Now, throw in a WGBL w/Heavy Weapon (I would arm them with a CCW of some sort, but wont here) and Wolves:

WGBL - Lascannon - RC - 2-4 Wolves - 129-153pts (or you can have the Plasma Cannon for the same price)

 

Thats 347-371pts for what is, more or less, a hyped-up Devestator squad. Yes, it has a single model with BS5 and a heavy weapon. Yes, it can split fire. But, thats 350+ pts for a unit of infantry models with heavy weapons.

 

 

Will it be effective? Depends on your definition. MY definition of effective is can it earn its points back before its dead? If it cant meet that requirement, will it draw enough fire to help save other units which will help win the points back? If the answer is no on both, then no, it is not effective.

 

To me, Long Fangs, be it a single pack or with a WGBL is NOT an effective unit. If you buy just the pack, you can pick up a Land Raider for a little more, which will be more likely to survive and earn its points back. 2 TLLC and 14 armor all around will do more damage, IMHO, than 4 Fangs. If you include the WGBL you get some ablative wounds, but at quite a bit of cost. Unless your playing against a tank-heavy guard army or something with lots of vehicles, no way they are earning their points back.

 

 

My Fangs will see play in Apocalypse, naturally, but otherwise they stay in the foam. I can buy more bang for the buck elsewhere.

[Crimson Devil]

I've read quite a few comments here on B&C where people have said that this cadre of veterans are a point sink which I read as 'not worth the points'...

 

I'm wondering how you guys use them, because they work darned well for me.

 

So far I've had most luck with a load out of 2xPlasma Cannons and 2xLasCannons.

 

How do you guys use yours?

I'm especially interested in how they were used by those of you who consider them a point sink before you stopped using them...

 

Target priority is the key to keeping them alive. I use them regularly with two MLs and two HBs or 4HBs. I find that these configs draws less fire than anything with LCs or PCs in it. Only if your opponent has lots of shooting like IG or Tau should you drop them all together. In my standard list they rank about fourth or fifth on the target list. My pred, Vindy, and two dreads draw a lot more fire.

[WolfLordLars]

My pred, Vindy, and two dreads draw a lot more fire.

 

So, how many troops do you take and how big of a list is that?

 

I played a 1500pt game and didnt even consider them, cost too much. At 2000 I COULD take them, but generally dont. Maybe at 2500....

[Crimson Devil]

We play 2000 pts. Two GH squads and 1 hugh BC squad.

[WolfLordLars]

Huh. Guess its just different styles.

 

Next pick-up game I might give them a try again.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i use long fangs in any game above 2000 points...anything lower and there isnt enough "scary stuff" (drop podding ironclad dread, ven dread, normal foot stomping dread, wolf guard termies with 2-3 AC marching on them) to soak up fire for the LF to actually be useful.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Quillen]

When I first started tournies I used them. And let me tell you they SUCK!

 

If the guy accross the way has a clue they are dead. In the friendly games they could do ok. But they do not have the soaking hits of a Dev squad. So ever hit is a heavy weapon gone. 3 hits and the squad is below half and they would have gotten alot of points. New rule system helps on this some, Still.... they suck. Too expensive and no cannon fodder to protect the heavy weapons.

 

I switched to 2 Preditor Annilators for my tourny list and starrted to rack up alot of wins. They live longer and they cause the other guy to focus on one or split fire making them both live. I used that list for 2 years and it won a huge amount of games.

 

Now I use a LRCrusader to carry BC and a Hero into the fray. It works wonderfully and usually get 2-3 times it's points back. And that means a win.

 

Since the new edition came out I have not done a tourny. In fact we usally play Appoc. More fun. Like old Rogue and 2nd edition mixed together.

 

Which is harder to kill? 5 guys in 3 up armor all of which you can't afford to lose. Or a LRC? The LRC can get a troop choice somewhere juicy and make the other guy sweat way worse.

[LORDMORKAI]

Are you frigging kidding me?

 

Long Fangs are the coolest.

 

The pack leader is essentially a kick ass vetran sergeant

 

they are stubborn as all else

 

and you can target 2 seperate targets, if the sergeant holds his wad!!!

 

chew up infantry and armor equally well, They slice, they dice and wail on good wholesome ORKY goodness!!!

[The God Emperor]

Have anyone tried having just a pack leader and 2 Long Fangs with HB/PC? I'm 2 days out from my LGS to fully test the thing. (Grandma who live in Alice Spring). :L

[clanfield]

i used 3 man pack with 2 multi meltas in a rhino not much armour survies into round 3

 

or i use a 5man pack 2 ml and 2 las canon

[WolfLordLars]

Are you frigging kidding me?

 

Long Fangs are the coolest.

 

The pack leader is essentially a kick ass vetran sergeant

 

they are stubborn as all else

 

and you can target 2 seperate targets, if the sergeant holds his wad!!!

 

chew up infantry and armor equally well, They slice, they dice and wail on good wholesome ORKY goodness!!!

 

:P What unit are you playing with?

 

They are not stubborn (rules or otherwise), they are tired old men that should be better used in a tank or a dreadnought. ;)

 

Here is the thing.. while I agree, they can split fire, shoot at both infantry and armor, etc etc... they are STATIC. If they move, they cant shoot. If your enemy isnt kind enough to move anything into their field of fire, or you dont put them dead center (or close to it) they dont really do anything. Also, if they can shoot the enemy, the enemy can shoot back.

 

Point sink... 100% point sink.

[WG Vrox]

One of the reasons I don't take them is the 33% chance of the dreaded Dawn of War roll.

 

 

Running onto the board and having to find a good place that both gives you cover and provides you an effective fire base makes such an expensive unit to unpractical for me. I have a hard time justifying my snipers and they only cost me 80 points.

 

WG Vrox

[LPetersson]

i used 3 man pack with 2 multi meltas in a rhino not much armour survies into round 3

 

That is such a great idea...

I am so definitely doing that in my next game :-D

[WolfLordLars]

i used 3 man pack with 2 multi meltas in a rhino not much armour survies into round 3

 

That is such a great idea...

I am so definitely doing that in my next game :-D

 

Ok, I am confused again.

 

A 3 man pack (Pack Leader and 2 LF) with 2 MM in a rhino. So, you move up with the rhino, unload them, and then.... wait a turn to shoot?

 

With a 24" range, unless your standing next to a tank, they will either be able to move out of range or behind cover.. or at least outside of the 12" needed for the extra d6.

 

Whats good about that plan? What am I missing?

[LPetersson]

i used 3 man pack with 2 multi meltas in a rhino not much armour survies into round 3

 

That is such a great idea...

I am so definitely doing that in my next game :-D

 

Ok, I am confused again.

 

A 3 man pack (Pack Leader and 2 LF) with 2 MM in a rhino. So, you move up with the rhino, unload them, and then.... wait a turn to shoot?

 

With a 24" range, unless your standing next to a tank, they will either be able to move out of range or behind cover.. or at least outside of the 12" needed for the extra d6.

 

Whats good about that plan? What am I missing?

 

Damn, never mind. I've checked the rule book now and they can't shoot if the transport has moved.

After Clanfields comments, I kinda assumed they could shoopt outof the firing points, but sadly they can't, so there's no point to this :-/