Death Guard Tactica

[nurglephill]

yes lord rao i know that. i apologize to DemetriiTZ if i should not have posted in his thread in this way.

 

It did not occur to me that the ideas of a tactica like this and cool/fun models would be exclusive of each other. If i decide to run a less than optimal set of units because i think they are cool can i not seek advice on how to get the best out of them? or is that for a different thread?

 

if so, again i apologise and i shall not do it again

 

many thanks

 

phill

[Lord Rao]

Aw crap, that's not what I meant at all Phill.

Sorry if I gave that impression. (Re-reading my post now I can imagine that it may look that way).

 

I merely meant to point out the differences in approach - Fun (i.e. casual) vs. Effective (i.e. hardcore). Yes I realise these are stereotypical.

 

In fact, I adhere more to the fun part, just like you. I too will always field bikes because I've got nicely converted models and I think they are the equivalent of the Four (or seven) Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which is pretty much plague and death and all.

 

And of course Fun and Effective can mesh very well, but the objective of a tactica is almost always the cold, calculated value of a unit to the exclusion of all else (such as visual appeal, background, etc.).

 

Not meaning to hijack the thread. Back to Tactica DG I say! ;)

 

 

Cheers,

LR

[DemetriiTZ]

This thread is an open document to anyone who wishes to post their ideas, questions, and advice. I'm no expert, certainly, on every aspect of Death Guard warfare, and I always love to hear advice and different perspectives from people. Often, these new ideas and perspectives drive me down different paths, and cause me to try different approaches with the same army to see how they all play out ... So, in short, feel free to post your ideas and your unit choices, regardless of whether they're considered 'Tournament-Worthy' or simply casual, like Dreadnoughts and Bikers. In my personal opinion (which is fallible), Bikes and Dreads are useful in a casual game, where not every foe will have a counter to them, and where the odds of your foe being adept enough to take serious advantage of your list's inefficient use of points are pretty slim..

 

But, in a tournament, the 'Top Tier' players tend to have lists which squeeze every drop of efficiency and synergy out of their own Codex, and then couple that with years of experience. This results in an army which can immediately spot and exploit a weakness in an army which a casual player may have no answer for, or even overlook. That's why you may see bikes dominate people in a casual game, and get absolutely flattened by the guy who walks home with 1st Place in a tournament.

 

All views are welcome, casual and otherwise. Death Guard are not only being played in tournaments after all. :) So, stop apologizing! The only thing I'm keeping strictly my own (in terms of editing) is the Tactica itself (the official document), posted on Page 1. Everything else is fair game!

 

I appreciate all the comments and support, too, and I'm so happy new players are being inspired to take on Mortarion's colors, and fight the good fight for Papa Nurgle.

 

Cheers!

 

Oh, hey.. It's my birthday, by the way... and yes, my birthday is 07/07. To be completely accurate, my birthday is 07/07/86, with 8+6 adding up to 14.. which means I turned 21 on 07/07/07.

 

I'm dead serious. :wacko:

[nurglephill]

firstly i am really not offended/upset etc. just wanted to check i hadnt missused someones thread (i hate it when that happens) and as i havent....cool :(

 

as for your birthday DemetriiTZ.....well, its destiny init :)

 

thanks for the tactica i am really enjoying it....and to get back to bikes briefly :P lol.

 

i have spent more time (i am working stupid hours right now so i have time to sit and read in the quiet moments ) thinking about this.

 

It seems to me that there are specialist units that can focus on doing one thing brilliantly, like chosen in a rhino with 4 melta guns killing tanks for example. But the more I look at it the less i think that is true of bikers. yes with T4(6) they are damn hard and yes if you put a lord in with them they will have a CC punch, but put a lord in ANYTHING and it gets a CC punch. Is putting a lord in with bikers the BEST way of getting the BEST out of a CC lord?

 

My thinking is moving from the specialist to the all round. Bikers are exactly like PM squads in rhinos, they have bolters, they are tough as old boots but only have 2 specialist weapon slot. Although they lack FNP and are not fearless you have the advantage of being even tougher than a PM and FAST! they are also relentless, which means your rapid fire plasma...is now an assault weapon!

 

So they are a mobile squad of plague marines. how to equip them? As i have said there are better tank hunting options out there so that leaves troops. with that in mind I am going to equip my bikes as follows

 

Sorcerer on bike, wind of chaos, MoN 180pts

 

Squad 288pts

1 biker champ IoN

power weapon (this way he still keeps his extra CC attack for having 2 CC weapons and all would count as the PW...)

5 bikers

2 flamers

 

total: 468pts

 

I went with the flamers for my special weapons as i have yet to get a full flamer template over a squad as there is usually 5 or 6 inches between me and them after movement. I am hoping with bikes i should be able to get much closer with them and add a fair few models under each template. And with 2 template weapons (three with Wind Of Chaos!) i hope they will make up for the loss of a CC attack-taking special weapons means you lose your extra CC weapon.

 

The idea is to team these boys up with a squad of PM in a rhino to act as a fab flanking force. should be great fun :)

 

thanks again dude. your insights are really helpful.

 

phill

[incinerator950]

How do you guys field your Defilers? I plan on using 2 with Reaper Autocannons, and from the looks of it everyone says they'll be dead by turn 2 or 3 :geek:

[SCOOBYSHAG]

How do you guys field your Defilers? I plan on using 2 with Reaper Autocannons, and from the looks of it everyone says they'll be dead by turn 2 or 3 ;)

 

 

I know a lot of guys run with 2xDCCW and the Battle Cannon

[aeroplane]

Make no mistake, however; the primary task of a Vindicator is to ensure Plague Marines make it to the enemy.

 

Thanks for the info on the Vindi build. Your quote leads me to a question -

 

If, when it is all said and done, the Vindicators are there to help the Plaguers get the job done, wouldn't running 3 of any heavy serve the same purpose, and have similar effect? Obviously 3 Predators or Defilers would have different strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the game is there a persuasive argument for running a particular 3 squad of the 3 choices? (Pred, Vindi, Defiler)

 

I see it as a bit of a range choice - the Preds would have the longest effective range, the Vindis in the middle, and the Defiler would have the shortest effective range (although it's ranged weapons have good reach, it really comes into it's own in the Assault)

 

Could it be just running 3 of something? A good synergy combined with a huge target priority problem for your enemy?

 

Anyway, thanks for all your insights!

[DemetriiTZ]

The range, for me, has never been an issue. You're deploying Vindicators in cover, usually near to the center of the board. Each turn, you can move 6'', on top of initial deployment 'depth'. So, in effect, you have a range of 30'' when you consider your 6'' move, and a central deployment ensures you can pretty much nail anywhere you need to by Turn 2, at the latest.

 

The largest argument, then, for a Demolisher Cannon over a Battle Cannon, isn't range, nor a matter of taste. I like the Demolisher Cannon because it is effective on everything in the game. You can penetrate AV14 with ease, rolling S10 + 2d6 (take highest) for penetration, you can blow away Terminators, you can insta-death Nob Bikers and Plague Marines, you can blow holes in Ork hordes.. Yes, a Dakka Pred may be more efficient on a squad of infantry, but the Dakka Pred becomes pretty useless versus a Land Raider army, when you'd rather have some AT punch. Yes, a Tri-Las Predator can punch a hole in a Land Raider, but you're wasting VERY expensive lascannon blasts on an Ork Horde. If you get one of each (Dakka Pred, Las Pred, and Vindi), you end up spreading your options too thin, and a foe will neutralize whichever vehicle is the biggest problem for his army. However, with three Vindicators, you can be sure that he'll be running from Demolisher shells for, quite likely, the entire game, and you can ALSO be sure those Demolisher shells are going to be the answer for a much wider selection of problems.

 

Demolishers and Obliterators offer the same thing -- versatile firepower. Demolishers are cheaper and more effective on certain targets (Monoliths, etc), Obliterators are more expensive (and in some cases, more fragile.. like, when a Demolisher shell lands on 'em..), but offer a wider variety of weapons which can be 'fine-tuned' to the problem at hand. I strive for a pure Nurgle army, so I eschew Obliterators and favor Vindicators, but I will certainly vouch for the effectiveness which Obliterators bring to the table.

 

The choice, in the end, is your's.

[Evil Homer]

I'm not sure I agree with the notion that vindi's are there to insure the plague marines get there to do the job. They do provide a huge advantage in terms of area denial though. I run a triple vinid list and have for some time. As I moved into the triple vindi list, away from oblits and landraiders I noticed 2 things about the evolution of my game. First I became much more defensive, relying the ability of the vindi to secure an area of the table for me and second, that tactically I began looking at the game in terms of area control. Let me explain that a little more, we almost always play objective games so that factors into my thinking, normally variations on secure and control with secondary objectives added in ( as a side note, the secondary objectives are drawn from the GW canada tournament scenario pack). So we place the objectives (or the TO does) and then I decide which 2 I am going to play to control and which 1 I am going to contest. The key here is that you only have to have 1 more than the other guy. So since I am only playing for 3 objectives it allows my vindi's, PM's, and DP's to work in a limited space, maximizing the coverage each unit can lend to each other.

 

Since I run all mech, I can form walls, stay bottled up and preserve my forces for the end game where the PM's really shine. The vindicators are key to this strategy, along with the rhinos for covering them and protecting the PM and DP's. This strategy is really about controlling table space through the vindicator's area denial efficiency and the sheer footprint of my 7 vehicles. Additionally, I run Havoc Launchers on everything so I have the ability to fire something from the every vehicle every turn if needed, and while they have no effective AP (due to the sheer amount of cover), its more about volume, you can get a lot of models with 7 havoc launchers and str 5 is awesome to boot.

 

So in essence, pick your ground, seize it, and force the opponent to come to you utilizing your many templates and firing ports to whittle the opponent down. Finish him off with PM's and DP's who have been in cover inside or behind your tank walls.

 

One other note, when playing so many vehicles I feel deployment becomes even more important, especially with vindi's. You want to maximize the cover each vehicle can provide but minimize the interference each vehicle has with any others. It is something I am still getting used to.

 

Finally, when running mech, commit to keeping bottled up in the rhino's until it is most advantageous for you to get out, remember you have 2 fire ports so use them.

 

edited for grammer and yes I know I missed some more....

 

EH

[W. Balmephinstein]

After reading the tactica and everybody else's post, I tried to make what I try to consider a "Balanced list", being that it could handle a veriety of situations but not excell specificly in one. I thought maybe I could post it here and get you veteran's opinion.

 

Chaos Sorceror

Warptime,Mark of nurgle (I like force weapons and I hate my HQ being able to be shot up no matter where he is like with DP's)

w/ a 4 man squad of Terminators in a Land Raider

Terminators

1 chain fist, 1 power fist, 2 power weapons

1 Heavy Flamer

Land Raider transport

Combi-flamer

 

I thought this would make a good charging unit w/ the heavy flamer and combi-flamer along with the sorceror's 4 attacks base and chance to take down multi-wound models if they are present and if not to use warptime to re-roll hits and wounds (with him only being str 4)

 

Summoned Greater Daemon

This will be explained later

 

7 man PM squad w/ 2 flamers in a rhino w/ a combi flamer and extra armor

 

3 x 7 man squads w/ melta guns, included is a power fist champion, in a rhino w/ extra armor

 

1 Vindicator, clean, no upgrades.

 

I threw the Greater Daemon in there because for one, you get to decided which champion it comes out of when it arrives, which could turn the tables for you if you are in a jam w/ a PM squad that just got assaulted w/ something like khorn termi's or anything that might deal with them easily. I also like the idea of having a greater daemon that has already been placed by the frontal assault of my PM's in their rhino's pop out to cause an even bigger distraction for my oponnent. I used to like taking flashy DP's w/ barely anything on them just to make my opponnent shoot at it instead of my PM rhino's I'm trying to get accross the board.

 

I can already tell the vendi might not be a good choise as it will be shot at pretty early and probably by lascannons or something similar BUT...that's more shots not going into my PM squads. I was contemplating taking the terminators out and just putting another flamer unit of PM's in the Land raider w/ the sorceror.

 

I'd love to hear everybody's opinions (good or bad, they always help either way).

 

This is 1849 points for an 1850 battle.

[Evil Homer]

you might think about dropping all the EA (60 points) and the summoned greater demon for either a cheap DP or a Chaos Lord w/Deamon Weapon to ride along with the terminators and the sorceror. I can actually see you possible being able to assault multiple units quite effectively with a set up like that.

[W. Balmephinstein]

Okay, here's the updated list.

 

Chaos Lord

MoN Plague Bringer

 

Sorceror

MoN, Warptime

 

4 Terminators w/ combi-flamer Land Raider

1 Chain Fist, 1 Power Fist, 2 Power Weapons, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Combi-flamer

 

Chaos Lord and Sorceror ride in Land Raider w/ 4 Terminators

 

7 man PM squad w/ 2 flamers in a rhino w/ combi-flamer

 

3 x 7 man PM squad w/ 2 meltaguns , included is a power fist champ, in rhino w/ no upgrades

 

Defiler w/ Reaper Autocannon and Heavy Flamer

 

I figured the Vendicator could go. I mean, str 10 AP 2 vs str 8 ap3....the template is still going to give at least regular space marines no save unless they are in cover and will still insta kill them as well and at least the defiler can still shoot other weapons if it gets a 'Weapon Destroyed' hit from my opponent. What do you think? I have tank punching capability, flame template coverage for hordes, meltaguns can handle big HQ like tyranid HQ's and such, and 1 ord template for more horde coverage.

 

again, back to 1849 for an 1850 battle

[DemetriiTZ]

Both HQs need Wings if you're gonna make use of them competitively. This allows them to leapfrog from one squad to another, to make sure they're where they need to be. As for a single Defiler.. Eh, it wouldn't be my first choice, but a solo Vindicator is doomed anyway. If you ran a PAIR of Land Raiders, with a Vindi hiding in between, and several Rhino squads running behind 'em, you may have a better go of things. As it is, the list isn't bad, but you're gonna have to playtest it to tune it to your taste.

[W. Balmephinstein]

Sweet, thank you very much for the input. I'll test it out this weekend and let you know. I also like the 2 land raider vendi option too, I'm going to try that as well. Thanks a lot for all this awesome tactics info. Can I transport models with wings? Or do they have to stay out? I'd hate for them to get all shot up moving with my PM's across the board.

 

Here's the update...

 

Chaos Lord

MoN, Plague Bringer, Wings

 

Chaos Sorceror

MoN, Wings, Warptime

 

7 man PM squad w/ 2 flamers

7 man PM squad w/ 2 meltaguns + power fist champ

 

2 x 7 man PM squads w/ 2 meltaguns, includes 1 power fist champ, in a clean rhino

 

1 Land raider w/ combi-flamer

1 Land raider w/ no upgrades

 

The Lord will join the 7 man flamer PM squad and ride in the combi-flamer Land Raider

The Sorceror will join the 7 man melta + powerfist champ squad in the non-upgraded land raider

 

 

That bumps me down to 1824 out of 1850, I'll poke around to see what I can throw in for 26 points, lol.

[DemetriiTZ]

Models with wings "move" as Jump Infantry, but do not become Jump Infantry, so they can be transported normally. :)

[aeroplane]

I'll poke around to see what I can throw in for 26 points, lol.

 

Screw the fluff and add a Plague Marine to one of the squads... (the best choice, IMO)

 

It's enough to buy a Havoc launcher for one Rhino and combi-weapon for the other...

 

A Meltabombs for your 3 champs and a combi-weapon for a rhino...

 

etc...

[Evil Homer]

i would probably drop the combi-melta from the raider and then buy 2 havoc launchers and use the last 5 points for meltabombs somewhere.

[nurglez]

Screw the fluff and add a Plague Marine to one of the squads... (the best choice, IMO)

 

 

Hmmm, no way, 7 man squads are the way to go for PM's :D

 

On the discussion of Vindicators, i must admit, that using 3 of these to me just seems nasty, especially against marine armies. My friends first army was imperial guard with 3 leman russ, and these beat my guys, not looking forward to when he starts that army again...

 

I only have 1 vindicator, but i also have a landraider with 7 PM, and 3 rhinos with 7 PM's in each, and a flying prince, my usual opponant is a chaos player (marines or daemons depending on his mood), and i know the threat my vindicator is to him, and use it to force him to react to me. actually used it to tempt his vindicator forward so i could assault it with my prince :D

 

Another reason that we seem to only take plaguemarines in our DG armies, well, thats because they are so great, anything they cant crack in close combat we use our princes for, small arms fire bounces off us, and we're tough as nails until the last one of us dies!

[Obeisance]

Gonna start The Purge soon.

 

2x Prince: MoN, Warptime, Wings.

 

2x 7 PM: Champ with Fist, 2x Melta, Rhino.

1x 7 PM: Champ with Fist, 2x Flamer, Rhino.

1x 7 PM: 2x Plasma, Rhino.

 

5x Bikers: Champ with Fist, 2x Melta.

 

2x Vindicator: Possession.

2x Oblits.

 

Solid?

[incinerator950]

Very Solid

 

I like the Purge ;)

[Evil Homer]

agreed, very solid. The only difference from my list is the 2 oblits instead of the 3rd vindi. I may try and run your version some time, I have the oblits just sitting around doing nothing....waiting for T-Sons army to finish assembly.

 

EH

[Obeisance]

Heh. I'm actually tempted to go with a second pair of Oblits, too.

 

But the points are oh-so tight.

[W. Balmephinstein]

Oh my god that list sucked HARD. I played vs. a codex space marine player who had 4 tactical squads w/ a plasma gun and lascanon, 4 land speeders w/ heavy bolters and assault cannons, 1 land raider w/ multi-melta and lascannons full of 5 terminators w/ thunder hammer storm shield and a termi leader w/ dual lightning claws. On turn 1 my vendicator was imobolized and could not shoot, 1 rhino was pin 6'd, the other rhino was imobolized, 1 of my land raiders was imobolized. On turn two the other land raider was pin 5'd. Deploying with 2 rhino's, 2 land raiders, and 1 vendicator made a easy meal for him having 6 lascannons and 4 land speeders. F*** that list. By the end of turn 2 I called it as I only had 4 squads against his ENTIRE ARMY.

[incinerator950]

I see why no one tries balanced lists any more :(

[DemetriiTZ]

Could have been a deployment issue. Try the army again on the same guy, but hug cover. 6 lascannons is nothing -- he got lucky. Again, stay in cover.

 

If that fails, switch to a pair of Daemon Princes. You'll probably see effectiveness shoot up significantly. Keep us posted.