Land Speeders, a discussion.

[Algavinn]

I host a single land speeder in my army, and have phased it out of my operations, deciding to put points into more substantial units and avoiding using it as a primarily one shot flyinh coffin. I am looking to open a discussion on the use of landspeeders including how you equip them, what role they fill in your army, and the particular methods and tactics you use (flanking, squads of 1, 2, 3, etc).

 

How do you make landspeeders useful for you, and what are your tenets of their use? What do you always do, never do, etc. Are they worth using as suicide units for you, or is this often an effect you attempt to achieve? In my Biel-Tan army in 4th I did use a good amount of vypers as suicide gunboats on the sides/rears of leman rus tanks, quite often popping a demolisher giving up a light support vehicle and destroying or crippling a heavy battle tank, and often did the same with my empty transports (given that my entire transported force was now deposited on the enemy and did not need to move but on foot) making it so taking down my anti-tank units was impossible before I caused heavy tank casualties on my enemy.

[Koremu]

First off, lone Land Speeders are generally a bad idea. Their armour is made of bacofoil, so I'd generally recomend at least 2 and probably 3.

 

Using them in partnership with a Locator Beacon (Scout Bike or Drop Pod mounted) eliminates the scattering problem. When used with Drop Pods, a Deep Striking unit of Land Speeders is a precision point defense vehicle.

 

Careful positioning is everything with a Land Speeder. You have to minimise LOS to those weapons you fear. Avoid the medium-heavy fast firing weapon LOS like the plague. Autocannon, Assault Cannon and Plasma weapons are your main problem. Mostly, true anti-tank isn't aimed at your Speeders unless it runs out of real armour to aim at. On an open battlefield, they're dead instantly.

 

Once down and on the table, I tend to utilise my Land Speeders as super-mobile heavy weapons platforms. Especially useful paired with Assault Marines, as a couple of Heavy Flamers thrown in before the Assault can alter the odds significantly.

 

 

 

Regarding Land Speeder weapon selection: I tend to equip my Land Speeders with a split weapon fit - 1 anti-tank weapon and 1 anti-infantry, usually 1 Heavy Flamer and 1 Multi-Melta (and no, I don't play sallies). I find that using 2 of the same type of weapon isn't useful, as to fire them you have to move at only 6" and that usually leads to the Land Speeder getting shot.

[Vaaish]

Best piece of advice I can give is don't take short ranged weapons like MM, Flamers, and Assault cannons on any speeder and expect a long life. All three of those weapons put you well within small arms fire that will likely waste your speeder without significant return. Especially the assault cannon is very expensive and too short ranged to do much good overall here. The others are very good choices, just expect your speeder to do that ONE thing and die though the tradeoff is usually worth it.

 

If you want your speeder to live longer, take heavy bolters or typhoon launchers because both of these will usually require dedicated anti-tank weapons to shoot down because they are well outside of the range of rapid fire and most base enemy weapons. The typhoon especially is nice despite the 90 point price tag since you can move 12 inches and unload 2 frag templates and 3 HB rounds. 2x HB only lets you move 6" and fire 6 hb rounds, which can be nice as well but makes it easier to close to small arms range with. With these speeders the key is to have something biggerfor your enemy to want to shoot anti-tank at for most of the game and then keep it out of reach of the small stuff while you pound away.

[Reinholt]

My thoughts:

 

1 - I don't like keeping my land speeders in reserve or deep striking them unless my opponent is going to be deep striking significant numbers of his own units. Given that they tend to be suicide units for me, having them attempt to take out their targets as early as possible tends to be a net benefit; I'd rather weather only one turn of shooting from a Leman Russ rather than three or four while waiting for a land speeder to arrive. Just set them up behind cover, and use your other vehicles (like rhinos) to screen them on their approach.

 

2 - I'm not a big fan of the assault cannon on land speeders because I like to keep them cheap. They are fragile and I expect that, in every single game I play, my land speeders will be dead by the end of the game. Thus, blowing a huge amount of points on weapons with pretty low staying power doesn't really appeal to me. I will sometimes take the heavy bolter variant if I'm playing horde armies, but my real preference is usually for the multi-melta land speeder.

 

3 - Given that they are fast, pack major striking power, and are comparatively cheap, I am more than willing to use them as suicide units. If you go into the game with the expectation that your land speeder is going to die and play aggressively to make sure it either destroys something before it goes or causes your opponent to alter his plans dramatically to counter it, that's a pretty good value for 50-60 points. I tend to be willing to make suicide runs at important armored targets (either key transports, tanks, or dreadnought type objects) with them, as the multi-melta has a pretty good striking range, and with clever use of cover, you can often force your opponent into the 12" range and level him with a S8 + 2d6 AP shot on a vehicle.

 

4 - If you are going to use multiple land speeders and you have multiple fast attack slots available, I would definitely recommend that you not put them in a single squadron. Splitting them up to increase maneuverability and firepower options will drive your opponents nuts (they never know where they will strike), and prevents a volley from something like a heavy bolter or autocannon from wrecking an entire unit.

 

5 - If you are going to take assault cannons or typhoon missile launchers on land speeders, I recommend taking a lot of armor. Otherwise, if that's one of your only armored targets on the board, it's going to be dead fast. The typhoon / heavy bolter combo can put out a lot of firepower and is very fragile, so it tends to turn into a high priority target for opponents after they see it shoot once. Assault cannons are universally feared, so that generates the same kind of reaction. If you don't have a lot of targets to force them to split up their anti-tank fire, they are dead fast.

 

Now, with all that said, I'm a huge fan of cheap land speeders and definitely not a fan of expensive ones. They are meant to be played aggressively, in my view, and you have to be willing to have them die. The biggest value for me is the psychological impact on your opponent by threatening their key units with fast moving suicide attacks.

[Koremu]

Is everyone other than me playing on incredibly open boards with little or no terrain?

 

In broken or dense terrain, the Land Speeder is next to impossible to draw a bead on with long-range weaponry. Supermobility and High Speed in one easy package!

[Algavinn]

Thank you all for the great points, perspectives, and suggestions on landspeeder use! This is definitely helping me get my thoughts in order as far as landspeeders in my army go.

 

I am personally a user of the heavy flamer/multi-melta speeder as a single suicide unit to throw a big swath of hurt on horde (ork assault squads, genestealers, a big mob of whatever before I assault it with a single tactical or something), or an additional chance to take down a landraider before having to dedicate sternguard to downing it when they could be firing at the LR's contents. With years of playing mech Biel-Tan, and Saim-Hann armies I am very used to using vypers as suicide units. 60 points for the death of a leman russ without my opponent ever being able to tell when and where my anti-tank will come from? Massive army synergy that requires few or no dedicated anti-tank units, and the target dead unit.

 

Using a typhoon pattern, however, is quite appealing given that my fast attack slots are usually pretty open, and more ranged firepower is very fitting in my army, as is more armour (I do a heavy ranged firepower base, with reactionary/aggressive drop pod units to break mobility, defenses and coherence, and host 4 vehicles usually). Despite it being fitting in the ranged element, however, it's more the aggressive section of my army that I may end up using these on. A very quick hammer punch of a multi-melta heavy flamer dread (dropped), sternguard with combiflamers and meltas, and some tac squads have a pretty devastating effect on some important opposing units. Lots of vehicles in my army, lots of threats up close and at range, and lots of damage after this initial hit.

[Bracks0682]

At the moment I'm using '4' Speeders in my main list 3 Typhoons and one wth Hvy Bltr/Hvy Flmr. To most of the players that I've gone up against totaly dislike the Typhoons. Long range and using cover for protection has worked

with these nimble skimmers...

[Ryjak]

I realized about 30 minutes after reading all this that the true roll of Landspeeders is to destroy whatever type of unit annoys you the most. Really hate Battle Tanks and other things with a high AV? Get some multi-melta 'Speeders! Really hate facing hordes of Orks and Nids? Get some Heavy Flamer 'Speeders! Really hate how your opponents put their killer HtH unit in a super-fast transport? Go with the Heavy Bolter and/or Assault Cannon!

 

I'm not sure what the typhoon would be best for, but I guess it'd fill the same roll as a 'Speeder with a Heavy Flamer... you probably won't kill as many in any give turn, but the range should give you a few more turns to do damage.

 

The Tempest and Storm have different rolls. The Tempest is supposed to take side shots with it's twin-linked krak missiles, or soften infantry with frag missiles and/or Assault Cannon shots, while the Storm can do a few different things, since it's open-topped. Probably one of the most effective things you can do with that is use it as a counter-assault unit. 5 CCW scouts can put in 15 more Str 4 hits when they charge and lower your opponent's Leadership test by 2. Get a Vet with a Power Weapon, and you should get one or two more kills than before.

[Shiodome]

speeders are just a cheapish unit that your opponent MUST divert firepower towards or have his objectives contested in the last turn. occasionally they kill something which is a nice bonus, but their straight line speed is their main contribution to a marine list.

[Stargazer]

I would say speeders are good to take if you have other Armour to divert fire from them such as a Vindicator.

 

This is because if you have a lone speeder or a lone couple of speeders will be shot out of the sky however if you take some thing to distract the big guns then probably the highest strength weapon you will come up against is 5 or maybe 6 if you are unlucky.

 

My 2p

[ObsidianIchor]

I find that a problem with Land Speeders in Marine armies is not that usually the dedicated anti-tank guns are going to ignore them in favor of more armor. That's not the problem. If my opponent is shooting a Lascannon or Rocket Launcher at my Land Speeders rather than my Vindicators, I'm happy to see him do so! Usually the enemy has some guns that are decently infantry killers, but lack the AP to do much to marines. Your opponent will usually know that the Land Speeder will end up being a gigantic pain and decide to throw Autocannon/Heavy Bolter type guns at your fragile Land speeders in an attempt to wipe them off the board instead of shooting them at a marine who will get a 3+ armor save anyway. For the most part, these are the kind of weapons that your Land Speeders will need to recognize and avoid to survive. If they're getting true anti-tank fire then you can thank your opponent for leaving your real vehicles alone and make him pay the price or you have lost the game because your speeders are the only target that those guns have left.

[Gornall]

I'm looking at including a Landspeeder in my 1500pt army and was wondering whether I'd have enough armor to keep it from getting focused. I plan on running a Predator with autocannon/LC sides, a MM/HF Dreadnought with drop pod, and 2 Rhinos (might change one out for a TLHB Razorback). I'm hoping that it'll either draw enough fire to allow my other vehicles to do their job or will get left alone to drop missiles/HB into units or rear armor. Think this will work, or am I better off adding another Predator instead?

[Combo]

slightly off topic but im building a 1500 list that is based around landspeeders as tankhunters, atm it looks like this

 

HQ

1x Captain Darnath Lysander – 200 Points

 

Elites

1x Dreadnought /w DCCW + Multi-melta + drop pod – 140 points

5x Terminator Squad – 200 points

 

Troops

10x Tact. Squad w/ Flamer + Missile Launcher + + drop pod + locator beacon – 215 points

10x Tact. Squad w/ Flamer + Missile Launcher + + drop pod – 205 points

10x Scout Squad w/ 10x Sniper Rifle – 140 points

 

Fast Attack

3x Land Speeder w/ 3xMulti-melta – 210 points

 

Heavy Support

1x Predator w/ auto cannon + heavy bolter sponsons + Storm bolter – 95 points

1x Predator w/ auto cannon + heavy bolter sponsons + Storm bolter – 95 points

 

Total: 1500 points

 

basically the plan is to deepstrike as much stuff into their lines whilst the predator's assault, im wondering whether A. this list is viable(the landspeeders are most of my anti tank apart from the dread+ lysander) and B. Should the Landspeeders deep strike with the rest of the army or deploy on my side with the predators?

 

thanks for the help

[yergerjo]

Fast Attack

3x Land Speeder w/ 3xMulti-melta – 210 points

 

I regularly run 3 Land Speeders with MM, it only costs me 180. Are you running with 2 MM's per Speeder? If so, cut it down since you should always move 12" with a tank hunting speeder and fire 1 weapon.

[Ming]

An ork player I know is convincing me to keep the Landspeeders in a squadron - to reduce the kill point spam single LSs create. The opponent has to kill both to get the point that way (rather than 2). I have the older "collectable" lead MM/HF ones.

[robdark1]

i be honest that the land speeder in the new edt turns the assault cannon, heavly bolter in a little more than a 100 pts of fire managet. good god that now what i want my land speeder to be more than a terrain piece on trun two. i would consider make this landspeeder a turn two or three fire support vechle because as it kinda close up the gaps in your line and it give a rend shot for one turn if you to use it . dont worry it that doesnt work well i suppose you should sell the that peice of @#@%@#$@#....

[Lord Sinaris]

Land Speeders are the thing I always wanted to bring back into my lists, and never had the points left over to do so for a while. I had been running three of them for a great many games, specialising in suicide tank hunting. On a memorable occassion, they destroyed two Leman Russ and a Basilisk during Turn 2, rendering the game a clear win from thereon... but that was some editions ago.

 

Now, agreeing that you wouldn't want to mount short- to midranged heavy (and expensive) weaponry on a vehicle that is one of the weakest targets in your army, I still see the benefit of the Speeders. The Heavy Bolter option is the cheapest, obviously, and hence always interessting as a fast-moving firesupport and last-turn contester. Multi Meltas scream "kill me, please" at the top of their lungs, and their short range puts the final signature on the execution order, but then again, if you move clever enough, it is one of the most affordable tank-hunting suicide-units in the whole list. No drop-podded melta squad can be as cheap, for example. Sadly, it is a gamble way to risky to really rely on entirely. I'm skipping over any configuration involving Flamers. Might be fun for a fluffy Sally army, but then again, it might just NOT be fun to be within 2-3'' of your enemy with an armour of 10. There is almost nothing that can be killed by a heavy flamer in masses that wouldn't really be worth the points of your soon-to-be-dead speeder, if you ask me. Finally, there is the Typhoon. This one really intrigues me. I mean, it IS pricey, but it also has the best range of any speeder-variety, fearsome killing potential against any target of their choice, and every other benefit of the speeder. At 90 points, you could of course nearly get an Assault Squad, but they wouldn't be fast enough, nor would they hit as hard. Having six rocket-shots in a single squad of Speeders really strikes me as the ultimate revenge against those darn Eldar rocket-thingy. Then again, the trouble really is that such fast-firing, long-range, mid-strength weaponry (as, somehow, mainly Eldar possess...) really ends your fun. And at 270 points the unit, a 3 typhoon-squad is more expansive than even a fully tooled Land Raider. Still, they can put out a lot of hurting, not only against hordes, but also with the most concentrated barrage of heavy fire a single marine unit can dish out.

 

The trouble really is their cost, and their ultimate use. For 50 points I get a Heavy Bolter and the ability to contest. Nice one. But then, for just 10 points less, I could get a Razorback, and either tool it out, or just use the points on something else. It might be slower, but it also is by far less vulnerable to hand weapons. Hence, the ungeared Speeder loses a lot of appeal.

The multi-melta variant, as I stated, is just not reliable enough. You can't hope for them to take out the enemies tanks all of the time, so you really need additional tank-hunting capabilites. If you have them, though, why really use a suicidal 60 points of expensive technology to do nothing?

The Typhoon has the advantage of range, and I can see both boards and games where this might drive your enemy crazy. I definitly plan on using a Squad of 2 or 3 of them some time soon. But then again, it is crazy expensive, and will take a lot of clever shooting to earn back its points. And then, one can ask: Why even bother if I can just bring a LR or 2 preds for the same effect, more easily?

[bt2278]

It's all a question of mobility...

 

There are times when LRs and Preds are the right choice and others when the fast moving weapon platform is just what complements your army best.

 

Or you can just keep it balanced. Do i shoot your heavy tanks or your lighter speeders in cover? More decisions to make for your opponent means more potential for mistakes. :)

[robdark1]

if 40k was about making mistakes then i make a lot of them have to play people who are that way of wishful thinking. land speeder are a question of what is the important thing you hate about the game so people hate inf so armour. that general is a easy question to form when posting on this forum. what im asking is does anyone really make land speeder apart of your army or just a throw away unit that just get used when every it need the most?

another question does a land speeder come in the fornt of anyone brain when you ploting you turn out as the player shooting you or it a throught a way unit. that something that may need to be look at if this discussion wish to contine.

all for ow

[Algavinn]

I'm sorry but that wasn't clear at all and I really have no idea what you were trying to convey. Can you be a bit more clear, or can some one assist? Not wishing to flame here at all, I just don't understand the post.

[Cameron Magnus]

I tend to use three MM and Typhoon speeders. In 4th I would often keep in reserve and drop them behind my enemies tanks but since I tend to play Eldar most often, in 5th I start them on the table. I use them to jet up the side and try to get a shot off in that first turn dropping those Prisim Cannons and the wave serpents loaded with fire dragons. If I dont get the first turn they are used to counter my opponents armored assault either hitting the infantry he dumped with 6 templates or if he has not deployed then the tank with three MM shots. I do tend to loose the entire unit within two or three turns but not before they have destroyed or sevearely damaged his mobility and heavy guns. The MM can be useful against Wraith Lords and Guard as well with its high strength and AP. I watch my opponent often franticaly try to destroy the speeders asap or scatter away from them to the detriment of his overall strategy.

[Ryzouken]

I'm sorry but that wasn't clear at all and I really have no idea what you were trying to convey. Can you be a bit more clear, or can some one assist? Not wishing to flame here at all, I just don't understand the post.

 

I glanced over it a few times, I'll see what I can do.

 

if 40k was about making mistakes then i make a lot of them have to play people who are that way of wishful thinking.

 

Don't know. First part of the sentence seems to be an admission of making errors often, the latter refers to his opponents and their frame of mind?

 

land speeder are a question of what is the important thing you hate about the game so people hate inf so armour.

 

Speeders represent a question: What does your list fail to effectively engage? If infantry, then kit your Speeder as such, if Armour, then kit it differently.

 

that general is a easy question to form when posting on this forum. what im asking is does anyone really make land speeder apart of your army or just a throw away unit that just get used when every it need the most?

 

The prior assessments are commonly made on internet message boards. I am instead interested in whether people who field speeders do so with the intent of using said vehicles as anything beyond a sacrifical unit.

 

another question does a land speeder come in the fornt of anyone brain when you ploting you turn out as the player shooting you or it a throught a way unit. that something that may need to be look at if this discussion wish to contine.

 

Another question that ought to be assessed is whether, when your opponent considers his plan for the turn, he takes into account the speeder as a real threat. That is to say, does your opponent often ignore a speeder to prosecute a different target, or are speeders typically shot down at every opportunity. If this discussion continues, I would be interested in the answer to this question, as it may impact how I view the Speeder

 

Tried to fill in the gaps as best I could. Bolded text is his.