Unguents of Warding or Psychic Hoods...

[Isiah]

I've just been reading through SamaNagol's excellent 1500pts Pure GK Definitive Discussion thread. In each of his units he has given his Justicar Unguents of Warding. A quick check in the DH Codex reveals a useful 4+ save for model and attached squad against "any and every psychic power used upon them".

 

To be honest I've never looked at this before so can you help me out here:

 

1] Does that means those saves are only taken against psychc powers that directly inflict wounds? So it would have no effect on things like Lash, Gift of Chaos or the DA's Mind Worm for instance as none of these inflict saveable wounds? Or, as the wording of the rule states is any and every psychic power warded off so to speak by anyone that throws a 4+?

 

2] Also, the rule says: 'the Daemonhunter and the unit he is with...' benefit from the save. So the Justicar gets a save plus each member of his attached squad, or, one roll for his attached squad as a whole (as it doesn't say each model of the squad)?

 

3] If I take an allied BC or GKT with Unguents in a DA army and attach him to a Deathwing squad then by RAW the attached DW squad gets this save too?

 

Now a Psychic Hood on a LD10 BC or GKT still seems a better bet as it potentially protects (cheaply) the whole army against any enemy psychic power being used at all and not just wound-inflicting powers being used (this is dependent on the answer to question 1 above of course)? That is for as long as the Hood is still on the table.

 

Am I reading the Unguents rule correctly?

 

Cheers

I

[DemetriiTZ]

Unguents protect against any psychic power used on any member of the squad, as well as the Justicar, whether or not they inflict a wound. Furthermore, psychic hoods and Unguents stack, and multiple Grey Knight psychic hoods (which have unlimited range, unlike SM ones) can be used to stop a single psychic power. This means you can pretty much negate any psychic power use, period.

[SamaNagol]

If you run a pure GK list, you may as well just put Unguents on your troops. You get the Aegis version of the Psychic Hood anyway. And that way you can stack that with the 4+ dispell.

 

Very useful against Eldar and 2Lash lists.

[Isiah]

Thanks for the answers so far that's cleared up the issue of what Unguents can be used against – basically anything psychic directed at the unit/model with it.

 

Ok so what happens v Lash specifically. Let's say a unit of eight GKPA with Unguents are targetted by Lash and the Aegis armour test fails. Then five make their Unguents saves, three don't. The three who fail are under the Lash's power and can be moved by the Chaos player, but what happens to the other five who passed? They must remain in coherency with their failed brethren as the squad can't be split – so they all end up being moved anyway? Does this mean that effectively unless ALL models in the squad pass, then Unguents isn't worth taking against Lash, so either the Aegis test or a psychic hood is still the best insurance against it?

[SamaNagol]

You make one roll for the unit. If you pass the roll the psychic power fails.

[Gentlemanloser]

What the PH is used for, over the Aegis Suit and UoW, are Psychic Powers that don't effect your troops. Like stoping a Farseer using Fortune.

 

Now, to continue to open the can of worms, do UoW give a 4+ to Ignore Harliquins Veil of Tears? <_<

[Captain Malachi]

Now, to continue to open the can of worms, do UoW give a 4+ to Ignore Harliquins Veil of Tears? ;)

I'll be honest, I don't know much about eldar, even less about harlies, but I'll make it simple.

Is veil of tears a psychic power?

If yes, you get a 4+ save, if no, you don't. I'll admit however I have no idea what veil of tears does, but that seems like how it would work in any case imaginable.

[Gentlemanloser]

VoT is a Psychic power that targets the Harliquins, that if you try to target them for shooting you have to roll to 'spot' them, much like our Shrouding (but far, far superior).

 

So does the Psychic Power effect the GK? If so, does the Eldar Warlock Power that gives the unit it's with a Cover save effect the GK (as it's saving wounds the GKs have caused! ;)) and would allow UoW to negate the cover save?

 

:lol:

 

Ah, the good ol' Null Rod! Don't face Harlies without it! :D

 

Edit: A PH wouldn't stop the Warlock cover save granting power, as it's persistent, and there's no roll. A NR would. But does UoW? :/

[Captain Malachi]

Ah, I see, well the UoW specfically say "psychic powers affecting the unit" (not those exact words, but the exact same meaning), so no, the UoW would have no effect, as they're are not affected at all, it affects the harlies. I mean, yes, they are affected obviously, but so is every other unit on the board that tries to shoot them, it isn't specific enough.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Ungents' isn't really worth the points, because for the cost of giving two squads 'Ungents' you could just buy a psychic hood. Unlimited range with Ld10 should give you all the anti-psyker coverage you need (and it cuts down on having to rely on 'Aegis').

 

The other major advantage to a psychic hood is that it blocks all non-passive powers (90% of Tyranid psychic powers, Veil of Tears and Warlock powers are immune to the 'hood though). 'Guide', 'Fortune', 'Warptime', 'Force Dome', 'Gate of Infinity' etc etc....none of these powers give a stuff about 'Ungents' or 'Aegis', and shutting them down is a high priority (although it's 50/50 that you will, remember that the same is true for your opponent).

 

'Aegis' was originally designed to defend Grey Knights from Daemons shooting them (because back in 3rd edition, along with Stature and other stuff our codex refers to that no longer exists, Daemonic packs like Screamers used to auto-pass psychic tests and shoot psychic powers at things). Because Daemons now have 'Gifts' and thus couldn't care less about 'Aegis', it's a pretty meh ability. Sure, free psychic hoods, but only at Ld9 (Ld8 if the Justicar dies). You only get to use 'Aegis' or a psychic hood once anyway, might as well take your best shot with the Ld10 psychic hood on an Inquisitor Lord or Grey Knight Brother-Captain (it's a bit expensive and risky on your Grandmaster).

[Isiah]

Yes a psychic hood would be better suited to blocking or potentially blocking any psychic stuff that require a psychic test to use.

 

It's easier to see that on a cost basis alone one [or possibly two] hoods could be more cost-effective and psychic-blocking effective than several units with Unguents. UoW still seems attractive in that it grants effectively a warding save that you have a 50% chance of making should the hood or Aegis fail – belt and braces if you like.

 

I suspose you pay your points and take your chance. If it was an either/or choice though, overall to me the hood still seems the better option. Which brings me back to the reason for this topic – an army list where all the GK squads had UoW, is that a good way to spend the [40] points?

 

Cheers

I

[Captain Malachi]

It's almost exactly the same, but in a pure GK list, where every single squad had them, and you spent the same amount of points on them... It's a still a hard choice. Almost all psychic powers are used by a LD10 model, so psychic hoods block 50% of the time, same as a 4+ roll really. So you either get the added effectiveness of the hood when the other guy uses a psyker with LD<10, or you get the bonus that unguents works even if the Bro capt. dies.

[Thaelion Hexis]

In the case of Warlock powers and Harlequins, those are persistant powers that cannot be countered in a such a way, i.e. they are not being cast. It is written somewhere, I think.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

In the case of Warlock powers and Harlequins, those are persistant powers that cannot be countered in a such a way, i.e. they are not being cast. It is written somewhere, I think.

 

Yeah, that's correct. In the Tyranid and Eldar codicies, they state that the models don't need to pass a psychic test, they just are always 'turned on'. A null rod would cancel out these 'passive' powers, but nothing else does.

 

The thing is guys, how many psykers are you going to encounter in a typical game of 40k? Moreover, how many of those powers are going to be directly targeted at your Grey Knights?

 

In a 'take-all-comers' setting, a single Ld10 hood (remember, you can only use a psychic hood once to block the power, you can't combine it with 'Aegis' or use multiple hoods to block a single power, so one is enough) with unlimited range should be enough to at least disrupt if not shut down psychic powers in the enemy army.

If you know you're facing 'Lash' or expect to get 'Doomed' a lot, 'Ungents' are a great defensive measure. Most decent psykers are Ld10 these days, so the psychic hood might not be enough. An additional 4+ defence is fantastic if that Daemon Prince is trying to 'Winds of Chaos' your GKT's prior to a charge; if he gets past your psychic hood and 'Ungents', he's going to win combat; if he can't get past both layers of defence, then he's in for a lot of pain (of the S6 power weapon variety).

[number6]

I used to use a psychic hood all the time -- either on my GK Hero or on my Inquisitor Lord -- and was very underwhelmed. Maybe it's just my poor luck, but I can count on three fingers how many times I successfully stopped any psyker power from taking effect. That's just three times in about 15 games, and not once did I actually manage to stop a Lash of Submission from taking effect -- the biggest reason to take a PH these days. The fact that ties still allow the psyker power to go off means that the PH works less than 50% of the time. Sure, I'm annoyed when powers like Enhance are allowed to pass unchallenged, but being able to use Aegis and then Unguents as a double defense against much deadlier (IMHO) powers like Lash and Doom -- which combined give me better than 50% chance of denial -- has proven to be a much better buy. Expensive, but the loss of 1-2 GKs -- painful as that is -- actually has meant that I've kept more GKs alive in the long run. Definitely worth the points in my experience.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree Number6, but there are many armies that don't make use of many 'offensive' psychic powers (Eldar being the classic example), and then other armies which don't have any psykers at all (where those extra points could be better spent on more PAGK or other upgrades).

 

If you know you're facing Lash etc, by all means load up on Ungents, it's an excellent layer of defence to compliment 'Aegis'. However (as has been my experience), if the army you're facing mostly has 'buff' powers or no psychic powers at all, 'Ungents' is unecessary (psychic hood will still be great for blocking 'buff' powers though).

 

In a 'take all comers' setting, where you don't know either way, take the psychic hood.