Terminators and Point Efficiency

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Awhile ago somone made a post comparing loyalist terminators to tac marines. Part of the post was math comparing the amount of firepower required to kill each one. It turns out a squad of 5 terminators and a squad of 10 regular marines take, on average, the same amount of fire to kill. There are exceptions on both sides of course, such as terminators being less vulnerable to templates and blasts.

 

So the same numbers of course apply to CSM. However, our terminators are very inexpensive in comparison. Our standard vanilla marine squad with double melta, champ, fist, icon of chaos glory and rhino is 255 points. However a squad of 5 terminators with a powerfist and icon of chaos glory is a mere 170 pts. 85 point difference for the same survivability. Now of course one is scoring, and they obviously fill different roles. However, it seems to me that standard vanilla terminators with a minimum of wargear (not the traditional combi weapon spam groups even) are an excellent unit for target saturation because of their point vs difficulty to kill ratio being higher than a regular power armored marine. Yes i'm comparing a tooled out marine squad to a basic termy one, but vanilla marines need to be tooled out and in a rhino to be useful. Twin-linked bolter termies however come with wargear that would cost a lot more on regular marines. Their shooting destroyes hordes and their cc destroyes meqs.

 

So, what i'm getting to is that it seems on paper that terminators with a minimum of upgrades make a great unit to saturate the field with because they cannot be ignored and are hard to kill, so they make a great meatshield while your regular csm kill stuff, rather than the traditional view of terminators as being the elites that do the killing while basic csm are the meat shield.

 

So does anyone have experiance with running them like this, or does everyone just use them for combi weapons?

[minigun762]

I've actually always been a fan of "tactical" Terminators. I think that because Chaos's Terminators are already hybrids, we should use them as that.

 

In many situations, 5 Terminators is just as difficult to kill as 10 CSMs. Naked the 2 units cost the same. Once properly upgraded, the Terminators tend to be cheaper. This means that the same kind of role you have for 10 CSMs in a Rhino, you could put 5 Terminators on instead. This would free up the CSMs to do what they do special, namely score.

 

Example time:

10 CSMs and a Rhino engage a shooty Carnifex or Wraithlord. The CSMs will probably win but it might take 3+ turns. Now throw 5 Terminators at it and again you will probably win in 2-3 turns but you're not holding up your scoring units in a long term battle.

 

I guess my point is that just like your other army choices, Terminators make for a good way to protect and support your scoring units.

 

EDIT: To give an example of what I like to use, I equip my Terminators with something like this:

5 Terminators, Heavy Flamer, 4 Combi-Weapons (Plasma or Melta), Chain Fist and Power Fist.

Total Cost: 200 points.

[Megalodon]

I'm currently building a squad of 5 nekid Termies the only upgrade being a single Power fist. I'd love to stick a Reaper AC on one, but it's so darned expensive for what it can do.

[Redbaron997]

Our Termiantors are just awesome, Heck in my opinion we get a better terminator for 10 points cheaper!

 

Neverthelss i still only use on unit of 5 to protect my Dark Apostle.

 

5 Terminators @ 210

- Mark of the Anointed (Khorne), Heavy Flamer, Chainfist

- x2 Combi-Meltas.

 

I love this unit, when it comes down it can throw out 3 melta shots (1 is lords) or if its against horde a heavy flamer and bolter fire.

 

I dont see the need for 2 PF/CF. 1 Will do the job in most cases if you ask me.

[Sons of Horus]

CSM termies are just amazing. but why would you only put IoCG and 1 p. fist? i'd load it out more.

[the jeske]

in most forces its hard to find enough pts for bigger terminators units or to make them the corner stone of a force [even putting the scoring thing aside]. they also tend to cost a lot of pts . 5 man 5 combis and a fist is almost as much as a pms/zerkers or csm squad[they are also very slow and make the HQ baby siting them slow too or over priced and too small , if a LR is bought for them ] . on the other hand they are god like as meta choice units . first of all you buy combi weapons as options for the unit , not plasma/melta , this makes them very flexible when playing more then one game with the same army . second is the cost and the unit size . unlike csm or the cult unit there is no fixed unit size for them [or rather there is but is very small ], 3 or 4 termis with combi weapons cost half or less pts then a unit csm/zerkers/pms. they are also harder to counter due to deep striking and are a great meta choice against MC , small elite units [oblits /sternguard etc] or tanks [specially land raiders] . thanks to that and the fact that most csm codex army builds are short/mid range fire armies , they are a great unit for every chaos army.

[minigun762]

3 or 4 termis with combi weapons cost half or less pts then a unit csm/zerkers/pms. they are also harder to counter due to deep striking and are a great meta choice

 

Its funny because the difference between the 2 schools of thought isn't really that much.

On one hand we have 3 Terminators and 3 Combi-Weapons for 105 points.

On the other we have maybe 5 Terminators, 4 Combi-Weapons, Heavy Flamer, Chain Fist for 190 points.

Thats a 85 point difference which is substantial but not normally game breaking because both squads have their use.

The 1st squad exists to do one thing, after that one thing its totally disposable.

The 2nd squad is a more well rounded squad, able to respond to multiple threats but costs more.

 

I see room enough for both in a Chaos army.

 

Hell if you want to split the difference, take this:

4 Terminators, 3 Combi-Weapons, Heavy Flamer, Power Fist for 150 points. Same as most Chaos heavy choices and able to still respond effectively to a variety of targets.

Compare this unit to 2 Obliterators or a Defiler or DP Vindicator and I believe it will be a competitive alternative.

[the jeske]

Thats a 85 point difference which is substantial but not normally game breaking because both squads have their use.

its a whole oblit . thats very very substantial to me , if I have or dont have it. specially as termis to be used properlly , like all units have to be spamed [yeah I know duh] , so when i take 2 five man termi units , I lose 2 oblits so from 2x2 oblits or 3x2 oblits I go down to too few hvy support [if i drop to 1x2] or have to cut stuff like troops or other meta choices [like a dakka pred or a 5 man raptor unit with flamers ]. while in a big force of 2k that may be possible , in the standard 1850 pts army it very much is a game breaker [as lash gets less effective , i cant count on oblits to do be good enough hvy support etc].

also while costing 2x150+ pts the terminators dont change much about them , they are still slow after they deep strike [so using them as anti horde is rather hard] they still have the same ,or even bigger considering the larger number of models, problems with plasma and plasma canons [and vindicators , but thats more a problem for you western guys] and whats more important that from a nice cheap throw away unit , they turn in to an important part of the army [and no non scoring unit should do that in the 5th] . suddenlly its important for them to survive stuff and that ties in other units or hqs .

 

CSM termies are just amazing. but why would you only put IoCG and 1 p. fist? i'd load it out more.

because there is no sense in runing more then 1 slow weapon per 3 termis and the chance of losing an icon and their rather big cost is too much of a problem + all the icons do is make them better in hth [either better at hiting or taken hits] and terminators to actaully do more then 1 hth phase need more then 5 man , but chaos doesnt have any transport way for them .

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

I agree with Jeske, Termicide rocks really hard whereas bigger Termy squads have to have an army built around them to be remotely playable.

[Cornelias]

i'm gonna be running 2 squads of termies in an 1850 pts list to test some things over the next few weeks so i'll give you an update on how i get on ;)

 

current plan is

 

4x termies, 4x combi meltas, IoCG, chainfist

1x champ, combi melta

total = 210 pts

[minigun762]

i'm gonna be running 2 squads of termies in an 1850 pts list to test some things over the next few weeks so i'll give you an update on how i get on ;)

 

current plan is

 

4x termies, 4x combi meltas, IoCG, chainfist

1x champ, combi melta

total = 210 pts

 

Awesome, can't wait to hear on how they treat you. Its always nice to match up math-hammer/theory with actual battlefield experience.

 

One thing I just thought of, for some Cult armies, the Terminators ability to be equipped with a variety of weapons really helps them out. Take Thousand Sons for example. A great anti-MEQ unit but weaker against assault or especially armor. Terminators with Combi-Meltas and Power Fists solve the tank killing problems while a Heavy Flamer and Twin Claws solve the assault issues, allowing your Thousand Sons to focus on what they're good at.

[Cornelias]

yeah i totally agree and with forgeworld sporting two amazing sets of cult terminator kits adds to the appeal ;)

 

hopefully they'll get some T-sons and emperor's children ones sculpted ;)

 

i'm toying around at the moment with role reversals and this is probably the main reason for me wanting to test termie squads. i've been using a havoc squad as an assault unit/retinue for my lord and so far it's worked great but that left me a bit thin on the ground when it came to heavy support slots.

hence the terminator squads coming in to beef up my anti-tank capabilities, we all know exactly how small 3 man kamikaze squads perform and i don't wish to dispute that, but i was also curious( like yourself) just how effective larger squads could be.

 

 

remember once upon a time everyone swore blind the moon was made of cheese, wasn't until someone actually set foot on the dam thing that, that theory could be put to rest! :(

[minigun762]

we all know exactly how small 3 man kamikaze squads perform and i don't wish to dispute that, but i was also curious( like yourself) just how effective larger squads could be.

 

Well the simple fact will be that more of the same = better. Of course there is an upper limit to this, using 10 Terminators to bust a single Rhino isn't exactly intelligent.

 

My point is that even adding a 4th Terminator armed this way, you'll notice some significant increases in the chance to kill something. So while 3 guys might be very cost effective, you may feel the need to field more if you want a better chance of killing your target. It really depends on how important it is to kill it on the first attempt.

[Aarhus]

Terminator Squad 3.5th edition

Five Terminators, Powerfist, Chainfist, C-Melta x3, Heavy Flamer, Mark of Chaos UNDIVIDED

Aspiring Champion – Twin Lightning Claws

258pts

 

Terminator Squad 4th edition

Five Terminators, Powerfist, Chainfist, C-Melta x3, Heavy Flamer, ICON *shudder* of Chaos GLORY (:cuss is that?)

Champion – Twin Lightning Claws

220pts

 

Terminators start at a base cost of nearly 25% cheaper than they were in the previous codex.

Terminators now have access to Combi-Plasma

Terminators no longer have access to veteran skills

Terminators pay 66% more for Reaper ACs

Terminators pay 66% less for Heavy Flamers.

Terminators get cheaper twin lightning claws

Terminator Combi-weapons are cheaper across the board (save C-Flamers)

Terminators now start two less men per squad.

Terminators now have a 90pt difference in the cost of minimum squad sizes. Previously 180pt started you with 5 men. Now you get 3 men for HALF as much.

 

The rules designers MUST have been drunk and/or high when writing this entry in relation to the rest of the codex. (ESPECIALLY when you look at possessed).

 

So; you tell me if Terminators are cost efficient.

 

 

Cheers,

Lawrence.

[Bonham1963]

My termies number 5 and they are under 200 pts. This is less than any of my 10 man squads without rhinos. I deepstrike them with only reaper on one and chainfist on champ. Everything else is stock with no marks. They are always the last men standing, regardless of which turn they come in. Fearless keeps them on the board and strategy keeps them fighting to the end. Can't wait to try them in a bigger point game with a LR.

[the jeske]

hmm but why a reaper ? 5 combi weapons always do more damge .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

My termies number 5 and they are under 200 pts. This is less than any of my 10 man squads without rhinos. I deepstrike them with only reaper on one and chainfist on champ. Everything else is stock with no marks. They are always the last men standing, regardless of which turn they come in. Fearless keeps them on the board and strategy keeps them fighting to the end. Can't wait to try them in a bigger point game with a LR.

 

Terminators are not fearless?

[minigun762]

hmm but why a reaper ? 5 combi weapons always do more damge .

 

Superior Range maybe?

 

I want to like the Reaper, I really do but the only time I can find it useful is the 3 man Reaper squad and even thats just an overpriced Dakka Predator. (115 points vs 100, AutoCannon/2 Heavy Bolters vs TL AutoCannon/2 TL Bolters)

[the jeske]

but if he uses the reaper for range , then he doesnt use the combis [as they are best used at double tap range] + there is always a big chance that they will die to pie plates , what ever they deep strike or not [specially in mirror matchs]. totally agree on the predator part . I mean twin linked or not its still 2 shots . it doesnt make the termis a good anti horde unit and combi plasma and combi meltas both are better against tanks as one have more shots [4/8] and the other melta rules .

[Kairos]

My termies number 5 and they are under 200 pts. This is less than any of my 10 man squads without rhinos. I deepstrike them with only reaper on one and chainfist on champ. Everything else is stock with no marks. They are always the last men standing, regardless of which turn they come in. Fearless keeps them on the board and strategy keeps them fighting to the end. Can't wait to try them in a bigger point game with a LR.

Where'd you pull that from? Terminators aren't fearless.

[djkest]

I had a 100 point unit (3 termies, 2 combi-meltas) take out a LRC in my last game. Well worth the points. They also killed a 48 point loyalist terminator before they were wiped out.

 

 

I wanted to mention, mark of Slaanesh is unusually effective on terminators in 90% of situations. I love getting charged by marines, going first, and putting a significant hurt on them before they have a chance to attack. It can win the combat for you.

[Dràyhèn]

Only few are foolish enough to charge termies, unless they're some Eldar scum with superior ini and weapons, or some brutish orcs with klaws and stuff like that. Nothing that can't stand on their way, won't probably do that, unless wipe-out or overwhelm is almost certain. Well, no one has dared to charge mine apart from bugs, Death Company, monsters, or some tough marine hero. Surely it helps, but in most occasions I see it only as a waste of points. Power weaps aren't probably hurting badly anything that dares to attack them, and fists strike last. Normally, there are too many to attack, or too tough to hurt when someone is taking on termies.