Marneus Calgar - a Discussion

[Silber]

Skipping through my codex I suddenly realized that since it came out there has been a tendency for special characters to turn up. Two out of three lists seem to have either Vulcan, Kantor or Lysander, and the rest have either Khan or Tigurius, or even (!) no special character. But what about Mister God of War himself? I cant recall a single occassion where I have seen him in a list or on the table. There's only two possible reasons for that - if we ignore the slim chance that I might just be missing something.

 

1. He's not worth the points
   
   Calgar isn't exactly what one would consider a bargain. At 250 points the price tag is huge. Maybe all those cool special rules he comes with are not worth the whopping 250 points one has to pay for him?

   
   

2. He's just too bad
   
   Having never used him myself I don't quite see that number one is the reason. Sure, 250 points, but what do you get? Let's forget for a moment that he is like a chapter master, only better. You get all the standard stuff, orbital bombardment etc. And then the specials: Stormbolter with AP2, gets to reroll each and every diceroll in combat. But it gets better: He, and any other Model with Combat Tactics can
   choose
   wether they pass or fail a morale check they're forced to take. That's almost worth the 250 points on its own!
   
   
   Therefore the only reason why he isn't taken that's left is that he is just tooo bad to inflict on your buddies. He's cheese incarnate, a taboo.

   
   

 

What do you think? Is he too good or too bad? Or is it just bad style to take him? Or am I entirely missing the point?

[Chaplian Silkor]

I think he's really good, but too expensive to use in 1500pts games....

[Mal]

Calgar is an awesome character, capable of inflicting insane amounts of damage. IMHO his rules are a bit over the top, but in quite to the level of cheese incarnate... mabey the herald of cheese....

 

But its the points cost that limits him.... hes just too much to field in a small force which is what most people play.... hes more of an apoc character.

[Castus Xanthis]

I just ordered him. I am going to use him in a 3000 pts apoc game this week. He is a tad expensive for the odd regular game but since Cipher doesn't exist anymore, He is the only counter to an IC fielded by a friend of mine, Abaddon. I could shoot him to death but not enough lascannons atm.

[Reinholt]

I think the big issue with Marneus is the points cost, honestly. I'm leery of a lot of the space marine character choices because of the point cost, actually. I don't like spending much more than 100 points to begin with (I prefer librarians in the current edition), though I will bend some to get a bike captain so I have more speed.

 

However, taking a 150+ point character worries the hell out of me because of how easily they can be eliminated. Marneus and Lysander worry me less given the Eternal Warrior rule, but between the two of them, I like Lysander better for the points.

 

Marneus is something iconic about the Ultramarines, too. He's probably the hardest guy to "counts as" for someone else, other than perhaps the Imperial Fists if people consider the dual-hammer guy to be Pugh.

[tedwin183]

Like the post above me says, I like Lysander better. Cheaper, almost as good but for 50 points less (65 points less if you take Marneus with his terminator armour). I seriously think Lysander could stand toe-to-toe with Calgar and maybe take him, even. You lose the orbital bombardment, but you gain bolter drill, bolster defences, eternal warrior, equal # wounds and a str 10 thunder hammer from hell...not to mention Calgar has a 2+/4++ save, Lysander has a 2+/3++...AND already has terminator armour...you don't have to spend 15 more points for it.

 

 

So, for 65 less points, take Lysander.

[Askari]

Actually, the terminator armor is a downside. It doesn't do anything that artificer armor and iron halo can't do better except for deepstriking. And it limits the mobility of the character and increases the cost by forcing you to take either a terminator bodyguard and/or a landraider to get around. Now that you don't even get the +1 to toughness I can never justify terminator armor for HQ's. That's why Kantor gets taken more than either of them. Plus the fact that he makes one of our best elite choices count as scoring.

[Silber]

I like Lysander better. Cheaper, almost as good but for 50 points less (65 points less if you take Marneus with his terminator armour). I seriously think Lysander could stand toe-to-toe with Calgar and maybe take him, even. You lose the orbital bombardment, but you gain bolter drill, bolster defences, eternal warrior, equal # wounds and a str 10 thunder hammer from hell...not to mention Calgar has a 2+/4++ save, Lysander has a 2+/3++...AND already has terminator armour...you don't have to spend 15 more points for it.

 

 

So, for 65 less points, take Lysander.

Yeah, but what about God of War? It's so damn great, how could you not want it?

[boreas]

And it limits the mobility of the character and increases the cost by forcing you to take either a terminator bodyguard and/or a landraider to get around.

 

Well, Lysander could join a sternguard squad in a drop-pod for even more bolter-fun!

 

As for Marneus, the problem seems to be the price. In regular games (ie +/-2000 pts), he's a huge investment for a single non-scoring model. Add that you'll possibly put him in an expensive unit (no point having him in a static Tac-squad) in a transport (you want him mobile). His abilities are nice, but for the price of a LR, you could game something more game-influencing like a... LR! Or a couple of whirlwinds or predators or thunderfire cannons...

 

Where he really shines is where he truly belongs: Apocalyspe! You basically get an incredible Asset (choose to pass or fail Ld tests on a huge number of units) and a good model (let's remember he's not to shabby!). Many games, I'd pay 250 pts to get " God of War" in my army!

 

Phil

[tedwin183]

Why mention artificier armour with Calgar? He doesn't have it, he can't take it as an option. He only has termie armour as an optional upgrade and I mentioned it only to strike a chord with why Lysander is better: Lysander COMES with termie armour already. Doesn't have to pay for it like Calgar, who is already overpriced.

 

It's true, Pedro does get more table time than either of them because of the advent of Sternguard. However, Pedro mostly gets taken just for this cause. As a character, alone, Lysander is far better than Pedro, stats/equipment wise.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Overpriced, slow, and not that great.

[Captain Idaho]

I would use Calgar in the following 1,500pts list:

 

Marneus Calgar - Armour of Antilochus

= 265pts

 

Elites

 

Dreadnought - Assault Cannon

= 115pts

 

Dreadnought - Twin-linked lascannon

= 135pts

 

Troops

 

Full Tactical squad - Flamer, missile launcher and veteran sergeant with powerfist

= 195pts

 

Full Tactical squad - meltagun, multimelta and veteran sergeant with powerfist

= 200pts

 

in Rhino

= 35pts

 

Full Tactical squad - plasma gun and lascannon

= 190pts

 

Heavy Support

 

Landraider

= 250pts

 

Total

= 1385pts

 

With a healthy amount of points left over for fiddling about. The Landraider is pretty damn powerful, and you put Calgar and the flamer Tactical squad in there to hit opponents turn 2 almost without fail. This lis off the top of my head of course, there are plenty of things I would probably change once I sit down and think about it.

 

But looking at the list, we have 30 men in scoring units, a combat master in Calgar and enough vehicles so that none will be bullied to the exclusion of all others. Firepower wise you have good amounts of anti-tank, whilst the tacticals and Calgar are there to thin enemy numbers. The points spare can go on alot of things. I would probably drop the Lascannon in the plasma gun squad down to a "free" weapon, and with the extra points take 3 Attack bikes.

 

Now what was my point in this? Just to show people that there are ways of putting a powerful but expensive character into an army and still be effective without losing the fun extra cool units like Dreads etc.

 

Don't look at Calgar's price tag as a stand alone cost. Look at what you would take as an alternative. Personally, I would take a Captain with Relic Blade in most games, costing just under half a Terminator armoured Calgar. So Calgar only actually costs another 135pts, which is actually not as extortionate as you might think (basically a single vehicle like a Dread or vindicator) when you consider his additional abilities and the sheer combat ability he has.

[Brother Tual]

I am with Idaho on this one... marneus is king...

 

He downs lysander - lysander just doest have the volume - more so with a HG and banner... 7 attacks on the charge with re-roll wound PFs - crazy good -

 

 

Re-roll wound is golden - I always roll ones - The ap2 storm bolter with re-roll wounds is handy too -

 

Orbital bombard is fun

 

I pass my moral tests - annoying as all hell to your enemy! loosing combat by 4 is a joke.. I choose to pass...

 

And taking up to THREE honour guard units? whats not to love about that????!!!????

 

His termy armour comes with a teleport homer... handy for when you run the HG and deep strike in some termies for backup (not that he needs it!!) so - his termy armour is free - you pay 15 points for the homer - which is fair as everyone else that can take one has to pay it...

 

 

I have run Marneus AND a chappy AND HG with banner in 1750 point tournies and it works... yet to loose a game with him actually - A draw is my worst result -

 

I think he suffers from the same fear and hesitation in use as landraiders, expensive, but when you use them and they come good you wonder how you did it with out them previously... awesome model too...

[Captain Idaho]

I reckon with Calgar and a entourage you can pretty much dictate to your opponent what their target priority will be.

[Starbuck_]

My issue with Calgar is that he is disproptionally better than all the other Named SM Chapter Masters, this is even before we consider that he can field 3 squads of honour guard, Aszrael Could probably give him a run for his money but I doubt Kantor or He'stan(He's the Salamanders Chapter Master right??) could.

[Koremu]

He'stan isn't the Chapter Master. He's not even a Captain anymore, so you can't even buy him a Retinue, even though his backstory says he has been a Captain.

 

And Pedro sees more use than Calgar.

[ExarPucc]

He's the Salamanders Chapter Master right??

 

No, he's the forgemaster. Honorary title given to the person tasked with finding Vulkan's artifacts.

[Captain Idaho]

My issue with Calgar is that he is disproptionally better than all the other Named SM Chapter Masters, this is even before we consider that he can field 3 squads of honour guard, Aszrael Could probably give him a run for his money but I doubt Kantor or He'stan(He's the Salamanders Chapter Master right??) could.

 

Sure he is so much more powerful, especially in close combat, but you do pay for this. Fluff wise, the Ultramarines are just as martial as Blood Angels and Space Wolves and have a larger recruitment area to pick the best from. Their home worlds are just as unforgiving as the harsh lives citizens from Baal and Fenris live out (they are raised rather Spartan style on Maccragge you see). So why shouldn't Calgar be a match?

 

I would imagine a new Codex Space Wolves will reveal a rather nasty character or two. Remember this is a new Codex for 5th edition, while the previous version of Calgar was pretty rubbish. Expect a bump for Grimnar.

 

As for Azrael, he is very powerful, with the same amount of attacks as Calgar wounding most models on 2+ but at initiative order instead, which is awesome. Obviously one on one, Calgar has the instant death rule on his side, but I feel they are very equal in the 40K universe.

[Koremu]

I'm surprised so many people quote Calgar over Lysander as a powerhouse. I mean, Calgar is good, but he's no STR 10 Hammer of Doom. There's nothing says "I can take your Monolith" like Lysander.

[ExarPucc]

Lysander aside, I'm curious how Calgar would do with LR spam in a 1500 game. 2 raiders, him, 2 scout squads, fill the rest as needed with assault termies. could be interesting. You'll keep your KP way low, and force your opponent to throw things at you that he normally wouldn't have thought he'd be dealing with.

 

Edit - List

 

I'm thinking something like

 

Calgar

Tact x10 + various upgrades

Tact x10 + various upgrades

Assault Termies x 6 with TH/SS

LR

LRC

 

Should come somewhere around 1500. 6 KP, 2/4 scoring. Not a lot of models, but if you focus fire things and don't spread out, you're giving your opponent hell to deal with.

[Brother Tual]

I mean, Calgar is good, but he's no STR 10 Hammer of Doom.

 

Right - he is 7 A Str 8 re-roll wounds... whats a tactical squad? mush?

 

There's nothing says "I can take your Monolith" like Lysander.

Ironclads... yes please! Same attacks but less points... same effects and hard as to kill

 

Calgar has no peer - A unit of terminators maybe? but comparing a guy to a unit is hardly fair... interesting how he costs the same as a unit with weapons upgrades? similar abilites too - wounds - PF attacks - but you get all his other things as well - moral - re-roll wounds - HG - Orbital Bombardment - WS 6 - I 5 (he has a powersword (more akin to a lightning claw!!!) too - more than able to deal with a combat squad)

[Silber]

What he's lacking is shooting abilitys. Orbital strike doesn't count - that's not shooting, it's.... well, orbital strike. 24" S4 AP2 Assault2 with rerolls is nice, but it's nothing compared to a tooled out Terminator Squad. Still, he only stops shooting when he's lost all those well protected wounds, while the Terminators grow weaker and weaker with every casuality....

 

Edit:

Another pro for the Terminator Squad: when assaulting that's +5 attacks, compared to Marneus' meager +1.... sucker.

[Nyyman]

I am with Idaho on this one... marneus is king...

 

He downs lysander - lysander just doest have the volume - more so with a HG and banner... 7 attacks on the charge with re-roll wound PFs - crazy good -

 

 

Re-roll wound is golden - I always roll ones - The ap2 storm bolter with re-roll wounds is handy too -

 

Orbital bombard is fun

 

I pass my moral tests - annoying as all hell to your enemy! loosing combat by 4 is a joke.. I choose to pass...

 

And taking up to THREE honour guard units? whats not to love about that????!!!????

 

His termy armour comes with a teleport homer... handy for when you run the HG and deep strike in some termies for backup (not that he needs it!!) so - his termy armour is free - you pay 15 points for the homer - which is fair as everyone else that can take one has to pay it...

 

 

I have run Marneus AND a chappy AND HG with banner in 1750 point tournies and it works... yet to loose a game with him actually - A draw is my worst result -

 

I think he suffers from the same fear and hesitation in use as landraiders, expensive, but when you use them and they come good you wonder how you did it with out them previously... awesome model too...

 

You don't want three honour guard units in no-apocalypse game. Costs just a bit and with minium, you get 9 bodies. Yeeees, consindering the amount of plasma cannons these days, that's not good for 345 points.

But for the original topic, Calgar is good. Good, good, good. But too pricy in no-apo games, even though Captain Idaho proved that he can still be used in non-apo games. But still. He just begs for 3 lascannon shots!

In apo games, well, consindering that he has 7 S8 attacks on charge, well, I wouldn't want to face him.

 

PS. How can you add only a specific part of someones reply?

[Koremu]

consindering that he has 7 S8 attacks on charge, well, I wouldn't want to face him.

 

PS. How can you add only a specific part of someones reply?

 

6 attacks on the charge, surely?

 

and you just delete whichever parts you don't want to reply to from inside the quote tags

[Captain Idaho]

PS. How can you add only a specific part of someones reply?

 

Use the quote button, but I am actually not sure how you would do it multiple times.

 

6 attacks on the charge, surely?

 

I think he meant 7 when accompanying a Chapter Banner.

 

On his own, he does out class even a 5 man Terminator squad in close combat. Reason being, he has WS6 and can use his power weapon (or should I say lightning claw?). Even with their 12 attacks on the charge (the sarg has a power weapon), their piddily WS4 means they will hit with roughly half will hit, and 1 in 6 will fail to wound. Calgar has a 4+ save, so should survive. However, using his power weapon he can likely kill at least 2 before they even get to strike, increasing his chances of success.

 

But still. He just begs for 3 lascannon shots!

 

Calgar don't care about 3 Lascannons! With a 4+ invulnerable and 4 wounds, he wont ever die to them in a single turn!

 

Everyone is different, but I really don't think Calgar is only for Apocolypse.