Marneus Calgar - a Discussion

[Reinholt]

Calgar's problems all come back to points. Is he worth the cost, and could you put something better in your army?

 

It also has something to do with opponents. He's great against other elite squads, but he's a total waste against a 30 strong ork boyz squad (and, ironically, probably going to lose to them by sheer volume of attacks).

 

I don't take him because I don't like to spend that many points on my HQ. I like Lysander a touch more because he brings more vehicle killing power to the board with the S10 attacks and is cheaper, but I hardly field him either.

 

Calgar is good, but slow. The question is what you give up to get him. It's the exact same issue I have with Vanguard.

[Brother Tual]

Why doesnt orbital strike count? You pay for it and it comes with him - its not a separate entry or upgrade.. and its a shooting attack commanded by him... With no marneus (lysander or captain alternate) there is no bomb...

 

Marneus, with the charge is more than a match for a termy squad... WS6 - 2x ap 2 shots on the way in with 5 LC attacks PRIOR to ANY termy replies is going to hurt badly.. and the reduced return 'hurt' is not likely to have much impact... not enough to stop the next combat phase...

 

If you like him or not - I use him - Idaho uses him - I use HG as well (interesting how you have 115 points left over there Idaho... :D ) and we both get great results in tournament and normal NON APOC games - You asked the question,

What do you think? Is he too good or too bad? Or is it just bad style to take him? Or am I entirely missing the point?

I think you missed the point - He is FUN to play, great with the rest of the contents of his box and highly competative on the table top - He is manageable if countered correctly but has the awesome ability to down anything in single combat (maybe a C'tan might be a bit hard - but then thats the same for every other model...) He is neither too good or bad - his points cost and ability are fair - He has an awesome style, more so with HG - He is 'mister god of war'

[Silber]

;) I was joking.... and Orbital Strike doesn't count because you have to stand still to use it and it's a one shot weapon. I don't say it's not there, I just don't see it in the realm of shooting - it's more of a special, an ace up your sleeve.

 

I asked the question in the first place because I wanted to know where he stands. Is he seen as cheese or overpriced, or just right? Well, by now I have an idea....

[confused_gordy]

I see him as the ultimate home base defender......

 

He has orbital (making him not want to move at least once in the game), he has an uber storm bolter (giving protection against elites charging your lines), he can defeat most scary things running at your line, and he makes every single one of your guys awesomely fearless while he is alive.

[greymeister]

I'm thinking of trying him in my 1750 list with a unit of some Vanguard in my LR. It should take alot of fire off the rest of my army and when they get into CC...yech. Lots of Attacks + Marneus :)

 

Also, the one time I'd probably be able to use his orbital bombardment is a turn he's locked in CC...won't be moving that turn ;)

[Rumour Control]

What do you guys that go to tourneys put in the rest of your army? ive posted a list on the army list forum if you want to take a look and maybe give me a few pointers as to where i may be going wrong.

[foster]

From what I hear when people try to pull off charges with their elite units and their best charactor into an Ork Warboss and retinue they get chewed up and spat out. Let's face it when any of our characters attack a Warboss they'd get their asses handed back to them to wear as hats. Even with Lysandor as your HQ he'd be lucky to survive.

 

I was wondering how will Calgar be able to go toe-to-toe with Ork Warbosses with the best upgrades (bikes, attack squigs etc.)?

[Castus Xanthis]

They strike simultaneously and Calgar has a 4+ invul while your boss only has a 5+. Calgar will get more attacks if he charges and his weapons are mastercrafted.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

But Calgar only has a 4++ and 3+ save without the termie armor. In combat with lysander he is about the same offence wise, but survivability is his downfall. It's really embarrassing to see you uber land raider priced IC die to Hellfire rounds, Vengeance rounds, or banshees :lol: before he attacks. True he has an awesome amount of special abilities but none are much better than other SC's.

[greymeister]

It's really embarrassing to see you uber land raider priced IC die to Hellfire rounds, Vengeance rounds, or banshees :) before he attacks.

 

Let's be serious, this would kill just about any IC regardless of cost. The one other thing that usually kills ICs you didn't mention because obviously EW prevents him from being insta-gibbed. That's something else to consider for your other HQ options, other than Lysander, you don't get that.

 

True he has an awesome amount of special abilities but none are much better than other SC's.

 

This I disagree with completely. God of War is the most powerful rule any general has had I think in any Warhammer game. You PICK the result of every morale test you take. How does it get better than this? Now he doesn't give you twin-linked weapons or extra troop options, but then again the people who give you that don't let you decide the outcome of your morale tests. You just have to decide if for YOUR army the point cost is worth it.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

All I'm saying is there is a big difference between a 3+ invul (Most SC have this or a feel no pain) and 4+. He become more expesnive than a LR with MM when in terminator armor and can no longer sweep. Usually instagibbin' is neglagable because all you have to do is put him in a squad. But anything with I4 or higher has a good chanc of taking him out without effort. Slaneeshi marines for example. Theres too many variables we can cover here but in short what I'm saying is his abilities are all misleading. He may just curbstomp a Carnifex in CC, but he then just got barraged by 30 fleshborers and rends everywhere. In my opnion it's putting way to many eggs in one basket. In terms of a SC he's great. In Terms of trying to using him as your whole army is different.

 

Hmm chosing to pass or fail a moral test, isn't that what combat tactics is for? Ld 9 doesn't fail often enough for that rule to be a board-breaker. And usually when your getting your :P handed to you in assault it's usually a good idea to fall back. IMO I don't think I need another LD buff.

 

 

 

Again it's just IMHO, feel free to use calgar if you want to.

[Rumour Control]

What do you guys think is the best unit to put calgar with apart from his honour guard? I was thinking maybe a 10 man terminator squad with 2 cml, combat squad and use his homer on his terminator armour to call the other 5 down.

[Prosedragon]

I just noticed that Marneus Augustus Calgar, Lord Macragge, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines and resident god of war, has regular power armor without upgrade. What a n00b.

[rockdeity]

What do you guys think is the best unit to put calgar with apart from his honour guard? I was thinking maybe a 10 man terminator squad with 2 cml, combat squad and use his homer on his terminator armour to call the other 5 down.

 

I think the 10-man terms with 2 cml is made for Lysander. Calgar goes best with honor guard with a banner. They complement him pretty well. They offer enough PW attacks that the enemy will probably wait until they are dropped a bit before charging calgar. Even Abaddon will probably not want to charge headlong into calgar with HG because he is likely to die even if he uses a daemon weapon to take out calgar or the HG, he's unlikely to do both, and the survivors will make him pay. The other reason they complement him is that they have 2+ with no inv save and he has 3+/4++ by default, meaning you can not take the termie armor if you like and allocate shooting wounds accordingly. Put normal saves on the HG and inv saves on calgar. Even if he fails, he can't be instakilled. The banner is a handy way to give all the HG an extra attack, including calgar himself.

[Captain Idaho]

I just noticed that Marneus Augustus Calgar, Lord Macragge, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines and resident god of war, has regular power armor without upgrade. What a n00b.

 

Calgar should always, and I mean always, take Terminator armour. Always. 2+ and 4++ saves are pretty damn good by anyones standards. He has 4 wounds and can't be instant killed, so I don't think he isn't very survivable.

 

Fighting Ork Nobz and a Warboss, if Calgar has a squad with him that is suitably offensive then I wouldn't put your money on the Warboss. I mean even Abbaddon will be hard put against an entire mob of Nobz toting power klaws plus a tooled up Warboss! One on One, even with maximum upgrades, Calgar will win (barring bad luck).

 

I agree with rockdeity that a Honour Guard unit is magic with Calgar, the extra attack on the whole unit is awesome. Combine them with a Chaplain and nothing will stand against that without a black eye!

 

Personally I would give Calgar a more modest body guard of just a Tactical squad in a Landraider, as I wouldn't use him to take down units of Nobz head to head. The cost is aweful large, so just 4 Honour Guard would be my choice if I did go large.

 

I don't get why people are assuming Calgar is a points sink because he can't take on an entire army for the points? He will never be fighting alone with a player with half a brain cell (at least initially). Having Calgar fighting within a unit is a nightmare to take him out. You can't rely on a hidden power fist to instant kill him and can't get enough attacks on Calgar with a squad backing him up.

 

And Calgar is initiatve 5 with a power weapon, and can re-roll all failed rolls to wound (essentially the equivilent of Shrike). He has a high WS and can fight before many opponents can, killing more than a few, which can prevent return attacks on Calgar or his squad.

 

Hmm chosing to pass or fail a moral test, isn't that what combat tactics is for? Ld 9 doesn't fail often enough for that rule to be a board-breaker. And usually when your getting your handed to you in assault it's usually a good idea to fall back. IMO I don't think I need another LD buff.

 

Everyone fails moral tests from time to time and assaults make Ld 9 or even 10 far from fail safe, as losing combat by 3 or 4 will change things sharpish. I would rather this than nothing eh?

[Race Bannon]

I agree with Captain Idaho completely. Calgar IS worth the points and IS a serious force on the table all by himself. Put him with a unit, almost any unit, and he becomes better. Don't expect amazing things from him the first game unless your oponent *needs* to take him down in HtH.

[rockdeity]

edit -

 

just want to add that I decided to playtest him a bit to see for myself. I played 4 games on vassal. Two at 1750, one at 1850, one at 1500. I will definitely say that he feels a bit uncomfortable at 1500 and even to some degree 1750, like clothes with the tag still on. He's still awesome, though, and I can't think of a better way to spend the 100 or so points you lose by not taking lysander. I also happened to be playtesting a RB heavy build after shunning them for a long time, so was not too practiced at that, but I still pulled out a win 3 out of 4 times. I took 5 razor backs, one with calgar honor guard with banner (no termie armor) and HB, 2 sternguard x 2 lascans in a TLLC RB, and either 2 x 5 man or 10 man squads of tacs and a TLAC RB, depending on points. Taking a land raider would have made him much more powerful, imo, but it is hard to fit in a land raider as well at 1500 pts.

 

In any case, he did not disappoint me. He was a dual pyschological weapon, in that people underestimated him so much that he and the honor guard would shock people into submission on turn 3 or 4, and then basically give up after that. He is not only rock-solid dependable, he also makes your army run like a well oiled machine. It's not his cost that is the problem really, it's the way you have to build a flexible, dependable, agressive, and survivable army with enough bodies to make use of the morale test ability. He makes 5-6 man squads (even of tacs) actually worth buying, which fit pretty naturally with the RB strategy, as it's hard to fit firepower into a small list with 5 man tac squads. Anyway, this is getting way off topic, just want to say he isn't just theoryhammer to me anymore, you have to try him out to know for sure.

 

My next try will be a 2k+ point game with land raiders and termies coming in, which is probably gonna just put him over the top.

[Captain Idaho]

I do agree that Calgar in just any list will be a problem, you need to build a list around Calgar for it to be effective. This isn't so much of a limitation, as there are a number of ways to fit him in to a list.

[greatcrusade08]

My 2 cents, stick Calgar in an LR with a unit of CC scouts.... cheap and tough ^_^

 

GC08

[I AM THE AWESOME]

My 2 cents, stick Calgar in an LR with a unit of CC scouts.... cheap and tough ;)

 

GC08

 

 

If by cheap you mean 650+ points, yes.

 

Now, cheaper, I'll agree with.

 

I've always liked Calgar, I converted up a PA version of him. I haven't really gotten around to using him much though.

[greymeister]

Calgar should always, and I mean always, take Terminator armour. Always. 2+ and 4++ saves are pretty damn good by anyones standards. He has 4 wounds and can't be instant killed, so I don't think he isn't very survivable.

 

Hmm, don't know if I agree with this. Most of the time (for me) the Terminator armor would be a waste, I haven't had that many enemy attacks targeting Calgar that weren't ignoring armor anyway. He should always be in a squad with ablative wounds so that you aren't letting your opponent Dakka him to death. I guess if you find yourself getting lots of non-pw attacks then by all means upgrade.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Calgar should always, and I mean always, take Terminator armour. Always. 2+ and 4++ saves are pretty damn good by anyones standards. He has 4 wounds and can't be instant killed, so I don't think he isn't very survivable.

 

Hmm, don't know if I agree with this. Most of the time (for me) the Terminator armor would be a waste, I haven't had that many enemy attacks targeting Calgar that weren't ignoring armor anyway. He should always be in a squad with ablative wounds so that you aren't letting your opponent Dakka him to death. I guess if you find yourself getting lots of non-pw attacks then by all means upgrade.

 

 

 

I was of that opinion too, until I played Orks for the first time.

[chaplain_quint]

I thought he was survivable to... In todays game he got shot with 2 boltpistols, I failed both 2+ saves. Later he got charged and had to make 8 or so saves, two 1's later... He only puched a rhino to death.. I think that is called bad luck.

[greymeister]

I was of that opinion too, until I played Orks for the first time.

 

Okay so he killed Marneus and not the (if you field him the way Captain Idaho suggests) scoring unit he was with then. So what is your complaint? Other than REALLY bad rolling Marneus should have already decided combat for you before the Orks even fight. I'd much rather an opponent kill a character than a unit that will win the game for me.

[rockdeity]

can anything survive 30 ork boyz charging though? That hardly seems like a fair requirement, hehe.