Marneus Calgar - a Discussion

[gil galed]

Ultimately i will/ do run calgar in huge games where i think that leadership might be a big issue (like necron players with massive amounts of pariahs or the new IG tactic of auto pinning after psyker squad reduces your leadership to 2) but 250pts is alot in a small battle and i prefer pedro in my drop list for making the sternguard scoring

 

Oh, and Calgar only beat Lysander in 17 of the last 30 one-on-one combats I just rolled (alternating who got the charge, just to be fair). So I'd say his worth really does come down to his abilities, and not his combat prowess.

 

on a completely unrelated point half the time a GK Grand Master will insta-gib calgar before he strikes in combat, the other half the time if calgar is swinging fists he'll insta-gib the GM, interesting huh?

[mega_marines]

Ultimately i will/ do run calgar in huge games where i think that leadership might be a big issue (like necron players with massive amounts of pariahs or the new IG tactic of auto pinning after psyker squad reduces your leadership to 2) but 250pts is alot in a small battle and i prefer pedro in my drop list for making the sternguard scoring

 

Oh, and Calgar only beat Lysander in 17 of the last 30 one-on-one combats I just rolled (alternating who got the charge, just to be fair). So I'd say his worth really does come down to his abilities, and not his combat prowess.

 

on a completely unrelated point half the time a GK Grand Master will insta-gib calgar before he strikes in combat, the other half the time if calgar is swinging fists he'll insta-gib the GM, interesting huh?

No, he wont. Not since 4th Ed. This idea has come up a thousand times now. EVERY Force Weapon causes Instant Death now, not "Kills Outright." Trust me, I've argued this day and night with EVERYONE.

[Steve Irwin]

Actually, in 5th Edition, Codex rules take precedence, for example:

 

Dark Angel Smoke Launchers turn all Penetrating hits into Glancing hits, whereas the main Rulebook says that Smoke Lauchers grant a 4+ save versus all incomming fire, but the rule in Codex: Dark Angels overrides the rule in the main Rulebook (thank god too, as the Dark Angel Smoke Launchers are so much better!!).

 

The same goes for the Daemonhunters Force Weapon, it says it kills the opponent 'outright', and Instant Death is not mentioned anywhere. The Codex again overrides the main Rulebook.

 

Hence, gil galed was correct in his original post. :(

 

Steve

[Grey Mage]

Dont forget Eldar Direswords... same deal.

 

5th edition isnt the watertight ship people think it is.

 

That being said, on to the origional post: Its not so much that calgar cant be worth it... its that their are cheaper things that are more worth their point costs.

 

Example? Pedro Cantor. All the normal Chapter Master stuff, just like calgar. However, he only costs 50pts more than said chapter master, gives you a free chapter banner, an amazing version of the stormbolter that has its ups and downs vs Calgars, almost as many attacks, and makes sterngaurd scoring. Scoring units being so important in the current edition means that IMHO its easily worth failing a leadership test. Oh, and he frees up enough points to take an extra squad of scouts with sniper rifles, wich I adore.

[Captain Idaho]

Cantor is no-way better than Calgar unless you are taking a Sternguard list. He is an average fighter in CC (3 attacks striking last and a 3+ save? I can build more threatening Captains than that!).

 

What you have hit on is the special characters in the Space Marines Codex are no longer able to just fit into any list (most of them at least), they require a list build around them.

 

To use your example, Cantor is average in CC and if I don't take Sternguard or just a single unit his making them scoring isn't so good. For cheaper I can make a more effective Chapter Master and not lose out on anything really. Sure his Insipiring Prescence is useful, but to benefit from it Cantor needs to be with the Assault units and that is where he is weakest.

 

However, stick Cantor in a list with 2+ big Sternguard and you have a solid core of an army with a reasonable support character.

 

Calgar is a Monstrous Creature that can hide in a unit and dominate an entire battlefield. He is just the ultimate warmachine, but is so expensive you can't just throw him into any list and expect him to be points efficient. I would use him in a Landraider and accompany him with a Tactical, then have other units in less threatening Rhinos. You have a solid advancing wall of armour with a solid inner centre. Calgar makes them hard to counter attack without getting a beating.

[greatcrusade08]

That is a nice combo. Brother Tual has done similar things in his lists.

 

I think Tauly did it with GK and Khan!

 

Gc08

[mega_marines]

Actually, in 5th Edition, Codex rules take precedence, for example:

 

Dark Angel Smoke Launchers turn all Penetrating hits into Glancing hits, whereas the main Rulebook says that Smoke Lauchers grant a 4+ save versus all incomming fire, but the rule in Codex: Dark Angels overrides the rule in the main Rulebook (thank god too, as the Dark Angel Smoke Launchers are so much better!!).

 

The same goes for the Daemonhunters Force Weapon, it says it kills the opponent 'outright', and Instant Death is not mentioned anywhere. The Codex again overrides the main Rulebook.

 

Hence, gil galed was correct in his original post. :o

 

Steve

 

 

And does it say it kills outright? Unless the FULL rule is in there, then it follows the Main Rulebook. If any part of the rule tells you to reference or use the Main Rulebook, you're outta luck.

[Terminus]

And does it say it kills outright?

It does.

[mega_marines]

And does it say it kills outright?

It does.

 

 

You didn't answer the other part. Is it a FULL, written it rule, or is it just part of one?

[jesselowe]

And does it say it kills outright?

It does.

 

 

You didn't answer the other part. Is it a FULL, written it rule, or is it just part of one?

 

Daemonhunters, p. 17:

Force Weapon: Force weapons are potent psychic weapons that cna only be used by a trained psyker. They are treated as a power weapon, but can unleash a psychic attack that can kill an opponent outright. Roll to hit, to wound, and to save as normal. Then, as long as at least one wound has been inflicted, make a Psychic test for the psyker against one opponent wounded by the weapon. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply, and you cannot use another psychic power this turn. If the test is passed then the opponent is slain outright, no matter how many wounds it has (but count the actual amount inflicted for determining which side won the assault). Note that a force weapon has no special effect against targets that don't have wounds, e.g., Dreadnoughts, vehicles, etc. Also note that you only take one Psychic test no matter how many wounds were inflicted.

[mega_marines]

*Cropped for sanity*

Well, see, it wasn't hard to psot it, now was it? If is printed as a full rulle in the codex, as you thus stated, then it follows those rules. So you are right, but a question springs to mind. When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

[Silber]

[...] a question springs to mind. When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

Well, I suggest you discuss that somewhere else, would you?

[mega_marines]

[...] a question springs to mind. When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

Well, I suggest you discuss that somewhere else, would you?

 

Indeed, but it is a thought nonetheless. :D

[gil galed]

*Cropped for sanity*

Well, see, it wasn't hard to psot it, now was it? If is printed as a full rulle in the codex, as you thus stated, then it follows those rules. So you are right, but a question springs to mind. When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

 

I'm impressed that you can be both condescending and wrong at the same time, that is a mighty skill :devil:

 

When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

 

Clearly if it has a full set of rules in the codex you use it as written because for all intents and purposes it is a different piece of war gear, if it references something else (i.e powerfists: See BBB) then you use the rules from the big black book. Similarly now that we have a new IG codex if i want to ally IG platoons into my grey knights army I follow the new rule book because it says see Codex:Imperial Guard even though we're on like the 3rd... or maybe 2nd

 

You justify it because codex are generally written in the knowledge they may see more than one edition and thus written so that the majority of it will pull through to a new edition and make sense.

[mega_marines]

*Cropped for sanity*

Well, see, it wasn't hard to psot it, now was it? If is printed as a full rulle in the codex, as you thus stated, then it follows those rules. So you are right, but a question springs to mind. When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

 

I'm impressed that you can be both condescending and wrong at the same time, that is a mighty skill :(

 

When do wargear pieces and other weapons in a Codex follow the Main Rulebook? If rules written for prior editions refer to the old Rulebook and old rule sets, how would you explain their usage in the new Rulebook with the new rule sets?

 

Clearly if it has a full set of rules in the codex you use it as written because for all intents and purposes it is a different piece of war gear, if it references something else (i.e powerfists: See BBB) then you use the rules from the big black book. Similarly now that we have a new IG codex if i want to ally IG platoons into my grey knights army I follow the new rule book because it says see Codex:Imperial Guard even though we're on like the 3rd... or maybe 2nd

 

You justify it because codex are generally written in the knowledge they may see more than one edition and thus written so that the majority of it will pull through to a new edition and make sense.

 

Note A: Not condescending, merely annoyed.

 

Note B: I'll argue that at a another date. Mainly because hangovers hurt, and newly broken fingers hurt more.

 

*New* Note C: And I'll throw this at you before my fingers start pulsing with pain. Explain how your Guard will ally a Leman Russ, then. The rules state a "Leman Russ" may be taken(if you meet the requirements), but in the Guard book, there is no "Leman Russ Unit", only a 'Leman Russ Squadron". How would you explain that one? Would you take only a single Leman Russ tank, or would you be able to take a squadron via WYSIWYG and RAW, or only one tank by RAI? My point is this, some rules will have to follow the main book for clarification while others will have to mix and match rules via RAI. using RAW for everything(Including our rules debate) would be a foolish way to debate. And by saying this, yes, I am a RAI supporter. Simply because most RAW ideas are just plain ridiculous.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

The way i see it is he's an option if you need a very hard character to put punch in an army and gives an insane morale bonus. But know when you should use him or have something else. If you already have a 8 TH/SS in a LRC then you probably don't need him.

[Silber]

gil galed, mega_marines (in no particular order): Somewhere else. Thank you.

 

After reading all of these posts and thinking about it for some time myself I think I might want to include him. For the morale-bonus. Because it's friggin huge. Also he's quite a decent combatant. But I'm joining a ligue as soon as my army's ready to take to the field (maybe a little playtesting will be possible, but not much), and they don't allow named characters. So no Mister God of War for me....

[Chengar Qordath]

Well I have started running Calgar recently with a bodygaurd not yet mentioned: Grey Knight Terminators, a 4 man squad of the big guys with Calgar using his power weapon providing 5 initiative 5 attacks which hit on +3 on MI's with re-roll to wound basically making it wound on a 2+ chance and the grey knights get 13 attacks with 4 initiative wounding on a 2+ and hitting on a 3+ for MI's aswell providing the killing capability of a thunderhammer squad at a faster initiative.

Calgar comes equipped with Power Fists, and as a Special Character he has to be used exactly as written in the Codex. Unless I'm forgetting something (Don't have Codex:SM or the BRB on me to double-check at the moment) that means Calgar can't take a Power Weapon.

[Captain Idaho]

Calgar has a power weapon as well as the Gauntlets of Ultramar, which adds so much to his usefulness in a list. The fact he can re-roll every wound roll means he can cause some damage with his AP2 Stormbolter and if you want to cull enemy numbers, perhaps to prevent the enemy Berzerkers etc from hitting your men so hard, use the power weapon.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah agree he is a chapter master after all and still has I5, which comes in handy against MEQ..

 

Quick question, not sure if its been asked yet, does he re-roll wounds for orbital bombardment?

 

GC08

[pingo]

I'm not sure... the codex calls the orbital bombardment an 'ability' used in the shooting phase, rather than a 'shooting attack' which Calgar can re-roll wounds for so I suspect not.

 

It would make sense if he didn't re-roll the wounds for the oribital bombardment as it is not his 'titanic might' inflicting the wounds; it is his ship's gun servitors.

[Chengar Qordath]

Calgar has a power weapon as well as the Gauntlets of Ultramar, which adds so much to his usefulness in a list. The fact he can re-roll every wound roll means he can cause some damage with his AP2 Stormbolter and if you want to cull enemy numbers, perhaps to prevent the enemy Berzerkers etc from hitting your men so hard, use the power weapon.

Huh ... never noticed he had a Power Weapon before.

[greatcrusade08]

Huh ... never noticed he had a Power Weapon before.

 

Often referred to as his glow stick :(, can you imagine him holding that little sword in those big hands??

 

Just to get you thinking but why if he swings his fists does he strike at I1 (cuz its slow), but when he swings a sword in those fists he strikes at I5? (making it a faster strike than regular super men)

Food for thought...

 

GC08

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Maybe the sword has some kind of extreme hatred for anything that isnt calgar... ;)

 

Calgar is pretty awesomely kitted out, but then for his points cost you would want a well equipped commander!

[Grey Mage]

Maybe the reason you dont see him often is that the model comes with honor gaurd and is expensive... so gets pushed back on peoples lists of things to get. The PA version isnt available anymore IIRC... and so that leaves one without a viable calgar model- he might be worth a landraider on the tabletop, but is he worth it to the wallet? Many would say no.

 

Hes still a fairly cool character, just not my style.