monkey boy Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 His profile states that you CAN fire his gun with the improved profile, I take this to mean you can also fire it as a normal Bolter. However when I tried this in a match today I got whined at. I was asolutely eating his army so I decided to just let him have his way, but I have been wondering ever since if my interpritation of the rules was wrong. So what do you think, can Telion fire his gun like a normal Bolter if he so wishes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 This has been done to death already, do a search in the rules forum. Essentially, no you can't, since nowhere does it say it even is a bolter. Except in the name of course, but that doesn't mean a thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1829692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey boy Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 I apologise for bringing it up again if it has already been sorted out. Thanks for the reply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1829697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Yeah, I would say it was less a case of whining, and more a case of correcting you. Understandable mistake though :D RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1829821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminatorinhell Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 so the gun is an acessory? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1829832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 so the gun is an acessory? Not sure what you mean here. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 well i can see how he did get confused since GW obviously hasn't done english class in a while, the entry says 'can' which means it will or will not fire by the will of whatever uses/activates it. question is: why fire it like a bolter?! but anyway i think hes trying to get at something about the weapon being there for looks which i shall answer to this: if telions gun is an accessory then he can sure as hell throw bolt shells far and accruate "why you whippersnapper chaos marines! -throws 2 bolt shells at them killing the weapons expert and sarge- that'll teach those whippersnappers!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Telion's Wargear states; Stalker pattern boltgun : Telion commonly carries a boltgun equiped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It can be fired with the folloing profile - range etc The pertinent questions (in my mind) are; - Does a stalker pattern boltgun count as a boltgun? The wargear entry on page 97 refers to a boltgun is also named a bolter. I'd suggest that this allows for various different interpretations of the name boltgun otherwise captain lysander's bolter drill doesn't work. Thus yes this is a boltgun. - Does being a boltgun mean that you can have multiple fire modes without reference on the same page? The sternguard have the ability to use fire modes which are listed but not detailed on the same page and no other unit states how a boltgun fires so again yes it has the ability to fire as a normal boltgun. - Is it clear whether the reference to carrying a boltgun is fluff or rules? I'd say fluff, but as it's named a boltgun i'd call it a spade. ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 it MY opinion since it calls itself a boltgun, it CAN be fired as a boltgun, but since I care more about playing for fun and not being a douche I would think that, you wanna fire it as a boltgun go ahead I have no complaints, as long as I can as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 It's profile says it is Heavy 2. This is not the normal boltgun profile. It is not a normal boltgun. So why do people disregard inconvenient bits of text as 'fluff' while other bits of the same sentence are 'rules'? It is a Stalker Pattern Bolt Gun. A Landraider Crusader is still a Landraider, but you would look like an idiot trying to say you could just use it's normal Landraider stats (I am not talking about proxying here). So why do the same with this weapon? RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Pearoast Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Pearoast Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 It's profile says it is Heavy 2. This is not the normal boltgun profile. It is not a normal boltgun. The profile of a combi-melta (for instance) doesn't state that it has as any value for it's weapons but can be fired as one or the other. I'd say that this is a fair precident for having more than one profile. So why do people disregard inconvenient bits of text as 'fluff' while other bits of the same sentence are 'rules'? I'm glad you bring this up - I plan to write a whole arguement around this point. To this end tho I'd have to ask where does fluff start and rules end? Because if its every part of an entry after the heading if there's no preceeding fluff paragraph? could you define what you think know to be fluff and what is not in the rules? I'd love to see how you'd define it...:yes: It is a Stalker Pattern Bolt Gun. Very true, which it states that it can be fired as. It also is a boltgun which it suggests it 'can be fired as' A Landraider Crusader is still a Landraider, but you would look like an idiot trying to say you could just use it's normal Landraider stats. That's because nowhere in the landraider entry does it suggest that it 'can' be used as a Bog standard LR. So why do the same with this weapon? Because the wording 'can be fired as' suggests quite strongly that there is more than one fire mode for this weapon. Is the 'can be fired as' a rule or just fluff text which you've ignored, and if so on what basis? ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Donahaigh Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 RoV, i think you're ignoring inconvenient text here, the operator can. Telion carries a boltgun. It has the boltgun profile. It can be fired with the following profile. not IS fired, not MUST BE fired, or any other mandating phrase. shoulda known Oldenhaller be right on top of it.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 So, why the triple post of exactly the same thing Oldenhaller? I think there may be better ways to get the message across. Very simply, the Stalker pattern boltgun has its own profile. The problem comes from people over-thinking the matter of a single word: "can". Simply enough, he can fire it with the given profile, or he can choose not to fire - that's all there is to it. Remember, GW uses a permissive rules set, so if you want to fire his weapon as a normal bolter, you have to find somewhere that it states explicitly that he is allowed to do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Donahaigh Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 So, why the triple post of exactly the same thing Oldenhaller? I think there may be better ways to get the message across. Very simply, the Stalker pattern boltgun has its own profile. The problem comes from people over-thinking the matter of a single word: "can". Simply enough, he can fire it with the given profile, or he can choose not to fire - that's all there is to it. Remember, GW uses a permissive rules set, so if you want to fire his weapon as a normal bolter, you have to find somewhere that it states explicitly that he is allowed to do so. We're not overthinking it- the wording is there. Its far simpler to write "telion is equipped with a stalker pattern boltgun. it IS fired with the follwing profile." but thats not whats written. Its a matter of reading comprehension, not over thinking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Still, find me where in the codex it states that Tellion may fire using a normal bolter profile! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Remember, GW uses a permissive rules set, so if you want to fire his weapon as a normal bolter, you have to find somewhere that it states explicitly that he is allowed to do so. or just do it anyway as long as the opponent is comfortable, rules be damned really Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 well i can see how he did get confused since GW obviously hasn't done english class in a while, the entry says 'can' which means it will or will not fire by the will of whatever uses/activates it. question is: why fire it like a bolter?! but anyway i think hes trying to get at something about the weapon being there for looks which i shall answer to this: if telions gun is an accessory then he can sure as hell throw bolt shells far and accruate "why you whippersnapper chaos marines! -throws 2 bolt shells at them killing the weapons expert and sarge- that'll teach those whippersnappers!" Not true all the time, though. If I say; "Can you please turn off the light when you leave", there is actually no choice on your part. I am merely being polite. I seem to remember that the wording in the SW Veneral Dreadnought is written in a similar tone where you "can ask your opponent to reroll the damage result". Again there is no real choice on behalf of the opponent. The wording is merely a polite one. In the end we are left with a specific weapon with a specific statline. Indeed we can choose to fire it using the profile. The alternative is not using it as a normal Boltgun. The alternative is not firing it at all. A relevant option shoould we plan to assault afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Remember, GW uses a permissive rules set, so if you want to fire his weapon as a normal bolter, you have to find somewhere that it states explicitly that he is allowed to do so. or just do it anyway as long as the opponent is comfortable, rules be damned really That's all well and good for a friendly game, but I though we were trying to work out what the rules say in this case. I have to say, I think Steelmage puts it rather well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 yeah sorry for the triple post - work's PC decided that it was on a go slow, edited the post and re-edited it and it seems to have posted three times Many humble shootings of oneself in the foot :P But yes, if it was given the ability to only shoot with one profile it would say something akin to "The stalker pattern boltgun shoots with the following profile etc etc". For instance in the sternguard rules it states that the player 'can' choose which types of special ammunition are fired. This suggests that they can be fired as a normal boltgun (although why anyone would do this...) and you can decide which of the following rules to follow. This is layed out in the same manner as Tellion. ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Not true all the time, though. If I say; "Can you please turn off the light when you leave", there is actually no choice on your part. I am merely being polite. I seem to remember that the wording in the SW Veneral Dreadnought is written in a similar tone where you "can ask your opponent to reroll the damage result". Again there is no real choice on behalf of the opponent. The wording is merely a polite one. Surely you're missing there the option of not doing so. You can choose with your venerable dreadnought not to ask your opponent to reroll the dice. Your opponent just penetrated and rolld a one...I'll have then reroll it because it says i can and it'd be polite for me to do so? ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Orphen Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Not true all the time, though. If I say; "Can you please turn off the light when you leave", there is actually no choice on your part. I am merely being polite. I seem to remember that the wording in the SW Veneral Dreadnought is written in a similar tone where you "can ask your opponent to reroll the damage result". Again there is no real choice on behalf of the opponent. The wording is merely a polite one. If you say "Can you please turn off the light when you leave", there most certainly is a choice. Saying "Please turn off the light when you leave" would be removing the element of choice. Anyway, "can" refers to the ability to do something. Back in grade school, when a kid asked "Can I go to the bathroom/nurse/my locker/etc.", the teacher inevitably responded, "I don't know, can you?", as in, "Are you physically able to do it?" Asking permission would involve the phrase "May I?", not the phrase "Can I?" Relevant dictionary definitions: Can: 1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to: She can solve the problem easily, I'm sure. May: 2. (used to express opportunity or permission): You may enter. Of course, this doesn't really answer whether or not it is a regular bolter. :rolleyes: I personally believe that it is, and would let my opponent fire it as one, based on the inclusion of "can be fired". If it simply had the weapon name and a profile, it would be different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Still, find me where in the codex it states that Tellion may fire using a normal bolter profile! where it states he has a boltgun which can be fired using the profile of the stalker pattern. It's still a boltgun which you 'can' choose to fire one way or 'can' shoose to fire the other way. Same as the Sternguard, can they not fire bolt rounds? ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Still, find me where in the codex it states that Tellion may fire using a normal bolter profile! where it states he has a boltgun which can be fired using the profile of the stalker pattern. It's still a boltgun which you 'can' choose to fire one way or 'can' shoose to fire the other way. Same as the Sternguard, can they not fire bolt rounds? ~O Not quite, actually. His unit wargear entry states that he has a "Stalker Pattern Boltgun", not a boltgun which can fire stalker rounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156524-telion/#findComment-1830643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.