Telion

[Captain Donahaigh]

Still, find me where in the codex it states that Tellion may fire using a normal bolter profile!

 

where it states he has a boltgun which can be fired using the profile of the stalker pattern. It's still a boltgun which you 'can' choose to fire one way or 'can' shoose to fire the other way. Same as the Sternguard, can they not fire bolt rounds?

 

~O

 

 

Not quite, actually. His unit wargear entry states that he has a "Stalker Pattern Boltgun", not a boltgun which can fire stalker rounds.

 

and the description of a "stalker pattern boltgun" is "Telion commonly carries A BOLTGUN (emphasis mine) equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It CAN (again) be fired with the following profile."

 

Two sentences. The first states that it is a boltgun. We know the profile for a boltgun. The second, due to the word "can" rather than "shall" or "must" or "is" creates the option to fire it using the aforementioned following profile.

[nighthawks]

much in the same way thata combi-weapon is a boltgun that once per game "can" fire the combi half of the weapon, the stalker pattern boltgun IS a boltgun and CAN fire with the special profile.

 

there seems to be a pretty even split amongst the comunity at large over the correct reading of this, so don't expect the argument to be settled quickly. I'll add to the "may shoot either way" side.

[rat of vengence]

In other places where the word 'can' is used and there is another option (other than 'not') GW explicitly states that. Scout Heavybolter Hellfire shells are a good example; "...scout squad can fire a single Hellfire shell instead of firing normally."

To further support the use of the word 'can', look at how Bike Squads are described for Combat Squads; "A bike squad chosen at full strength can split into two combat squads..."

 

In the first example there is an alternative, which is described. In the second, the only alternative is NOT doing what they can.

 

In the context, Tellion can fire his Stalker Boltgun, or he can choose not to. This is consistent with how the rules are written in the codex, unless it's all fluff :P

 

RoV

 

Edit: I just looked up Combi-weapons; "A Space Marine armed with a combiweapon can choose to fire eithe the bolter or the secondary weapon..." It very clearly states there is an option other than 'not'.

[Captain Donahaigh]

RoV, you are choosing to ignore the first part: IT IS A BOLTGUN. the "can" gives the option to fire it with the heavy2 profile. This is really going round and round. neither side is going to convince the other. At my house, it's my way, until there's an official ruling somewheres....

[greatcrusade08]

RoV, you are choosing to ignore the first part: IT IS A BOLTGUN. the "can" gives the option to fire it with the heavy2 profile. This is really going round and round. neither side is going to convince the other. At my house, it's my way, until there's an official ruling somewheres....

 

This means very little, the land speeder storm is first and formost a land speeder, but has different stats and rules.

There is only one rules set given for the stalker boltgun, and i fail to see how it can have a 36" heavy2 stat one minute and at the blink of an eye be used as a rapid fire weapon with 24" range.

Yes at your house/club your able to play by any rules, the 40k rulebook does infact say its only a guide, but for my 2 cents its a heavy weapon as shown in its stats...

 

GC08

[Maligoare]

RoV, you are choosing to ignore the first part: IT IS A BOLTGUN. the "can" gives the option to fire it with the heavy2 profile.

 

 

So, taking another example, you have a Marine Captain with Storm Bolter. That seems to be called a bolter, so does that mean that you can fire it with the profile of a regular bolter? Of course not, so why assume that having bolter or boltgun in the name makes any difference to how it fires?

[rat of vengence]

RoV, you are choosing to ignore the first part: IT IS A BOLTGUN. the "can" gives the option to fire it with the heavy2 profile. This is really going round and round. neither side is going to convince the other. At my house, it's my way, until there's an official ruling somewheres....

 

Dude, I already gave examples from the Codex that show when 'can' gives another option other than 'can not' it is described clearly. I have shown that the 'can' DOESN"T give it the option to fire any other way. You can house rule it all you like, but you are going against the Codex.

 

'Can' meaning can or cannot;

 

...dozer blades can re-roll a failed... p103

...a vehicle that uses a searchlight can be targeted... p103

...can be kept in reserve and arrive using deep strike...p100

...armed with digital weapons can re-roll...p98

 

'Can' allowing other options other than cannot;

 

...can use a signum, in lieu of... p100

...can choose to fire either the bolter, or the secondary weapon... p97

 

Where there is an option other than 'can' and 'not' it is specified.

 

Out of interest, the entry for Calgar says that his Gauntlets of Ultramar "...contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile;", very similar to what Telion's Entry says. Do you suggest that the Gauntlets also 'can' fire as a pair of ordinary bolters? :P

 

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it. :lol:

Come on fellas, I know it may be a situational advantage for Tellion to fire his weapon as a normal bolter, but this is really reaching...

 

RoV

[Luku]

He's not assuming anything, he is quoting the exact wording in the codex, and as the codex says, if the weapon is a common one, they will not reprint the stats on every page, thus in the Sternguard page they only print the stats for the special ammo...

 

The exact wording in the codex is thus; Telion commonly carries a BOLTGUN equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells, it CAN be fired with the following profile:

 

If it was meant to be fired that way only it would say "It uses the following profile" It does not, it says it can be fired with that profile, it specifically states it is a boltgun that has been modified to fire different rounds, exactly the same as the Sternguard's Boltguns

 

The way I see it, it is clearly stated in proper English that it CAN be done, and thus, due to already mentioning what weapon it is, CAN be fired either way.

 

I also see this, to those people against him firing it as a boltgun. What difference does it make that he can fire it as a boltgun? If he doesn't move and fires it he is using a inferior weapon...12 inches less range, no pinning or rending.... Look at yourselves, is it that important that he is not allowed to do it? Even when he does move and gets that one extra shot for rapid firing, is it that important?

 

The main ruling of GW has always been, and always will be....to have fun, if it bothers you that much on this one ruling, you may be in the wrong hobby...of cource the easiest way to settle this matter is thus.

 

Before the start of the game, see if your opponent has a differing view on this rule, if you have conflicting ideas about it, roll a D6, thus the decision of the ruling is taken out of your hands, or failing that, when at GW and ask for thier opinion, as thier rules state, the staff are always right, if you disagree, roll that D6 again! :)

[rat of vengence]

I quoted the exact wording in the codex too, but you seem to be ignoring the context. Nowhere else does 'can' mean what you are claiming in that context. Clearly stated, in proper English, there is no other given alteranative other than not firing. You are searching for an implication that isn't there, as proven by several quotes from the Codex, rather than wishful thinking.

 

If it were just a boltgun, then I wouldn't be too bothered by someones misinterpretation of the codex. But he would still get to choose his targets...

 

As to your advice to look at ourselves, did you do that before you weighed in to this arguement?

 

"Pot calling kettle, come in kettle..."

 

 

On a lighter note,

 

"Can, or can not. There is no rapidfire."

 

RoV

[Oldenhaller]

"Can, or can not. There is no rapidfire."

 

RoV

 

Arf :)

 

I'd say yes - marneus could fire one of his two bolters with their normal profile rather than the AP2 gratuiousness which they are together. Looking at other weapons which are listed as something else;

 

Dorns Arrow - '...Storm Bolter has the following profile...'

 

Fist of Dorn - 'Master crafted thunder hammer - extra rules'

 

on the flip side

 

The Gauntlet of the Forge - 'can be fired as a heavy flamer.' but the rest of the time it can be fired as...what?

 

really do wish GW would have their linguistic check on when they write these things ^_^

 

~O

[Captain Donahaigh]

on the flip side

 

The Gauntlet of the Forge - 'can be fired as a heavy flamer.' but the rest of the time it can be fired as...what?

 

"This armoured gauntlet can be fired as a heavy flamer."

 

It can be fired as an ARMOURED GAUNTLET, of course! :)

 

edit: to address specific questions- as oldenhaller said, yes, a player could choose to fire the gauntlets of ultramar as a normal bolter. and no, a cappie could not choose to fire a storm bolter as a normal boltgun, its description is "resembles two boltguns..." and nowhere is the operator "can" which would indicate any other option. you get a gold star for the effort, though.

[Oldenhaller]

"This armoured gauntlet can be fired as a heavy flamer."

 

It can be fired as an ARMOURED GAUNTLET, of course! :P

 

*smacks hand on forehead* but of course!! Mein gehirne sind schlect!!!

 

Now a an armoured gauntlet might be another means of refering to an armoured fist...sooooOOOoooo i think he should be able to shoot it as either a heavy flamer or...9 lasguns, a multilaser, a heavy bolter and a lascannon....mebee?

 

;) :P -_-

 

 

anywho sillyness aside, that's the one thing which gives me pause to think, but doesn't really convince me either way. What does are the boltguns of the sterguard, and the named weapons of other characters having specific profiles.

 

I like being as silly as GW with english...it's fun

 

~O

[Steelmage99]

This is the same thing as insisting that a Land Raider Crusader can fire twinlinked Lascannons because "you have obviously missed that it is a LAND RAIDER".

[Oldenhaller]

??

 

not quite sure where you get that from - at all times here all that is being suggested is that a gun listed as a boltgun, can be fired as a boltgun because it also can be fired with an alternate profile. if you can find me a crusader with godhammers in it's profile i'd be mighty happy, extra termies and good guns :P

 

~O

[Captain Donahaigh]

Now a an armoured gauntlet might be another means of refering to an armoured fist...sooooOOOoooo i think he should be able to shoot it as either a heavy flamer or...9 lasguns, a multilaser, a heavy bolter and a lascannon....mebee?

 

 

...and vulkan just found his way into every list i write! :ph34r:

[Captain Donahaigh]

This is the same thing as insisting that a Land Raider Crusader can fire twinlinked Lascannons because "you have obviously missed that it is a LAND RAIDER".

 

yes because the hurricane bolter entry says "the hurricane bolter is a twin-linked Lascannon. It can fire with the following profile:" oh wait, it doesn't.....

[Captain Idaho]

I think the question of Telion's bolter is pretty conclusive. It states he can fire the weapon with the following profile, but doesn't state he can fire it as a bolter as the wording is not prefixed with "is a bolter that can also". looking at precedent, Marneus Calgar's two integrated bolters can be fired as a Storm bolter with the following profile..., but it is accepted that you can't fire it as a standard bolter (not that you would). As support for this, heavy bolter in Scout squads can fire with a separate profile, and it states afterwards "instead of firing normally".

 

Possibly even more of a topic for hot debate is his wound allocation rules. Note that it states the player owning Telion can allocate the wounds. Most players have taken this to mean he can put 2 wounds on the same model, but if you evaluate the rules it doesn't say you can break the wound allocation rules, just who gets to make that allocation.

 

So in my mind the Telion using player can allocate those wounds following the standard rules for allocation, i.e. no model can take a second wound until every model in the unit has received a wound.

[Captain Donahaigh]

So in my mind the Telion using player can allocate those wounds following the standard rules for allocation, i.e. no model can take a second wound until every model in the unit has received a wound.

 

and I agree. see, I'm not always an obstinate ogre! (oops, ogryn. this is 40k, d'oh!)

[greatcrusade08]

Look guys the codex clearly says Telions gun has the following profile..... 36" Heavy 2 rending pinning. It does not say can be fired as a normal bolter.

If he were able to shoot it as a standard bolter the profile would say something to this effect.

 

The rules book has to list the rules that can be used, not the ones that cant be.

 

i.e the rulebook does not list every weapon by saying cannot be fired as a bolter. If it were able to, it would clearly say, this can be fired as a standard bolter.

 

Its Rules As Written, not Rules as Wishful Thinking....

 

GC08

[King Tiger]

all this over a boltgun

[Hexx]

<shrug> Same thing as many GW rules disputes, intent vs what the rules actually say.I'd go with intent says he should be able to fire like a normal boltgun, but rules say it fires only at the heavy profile.

[Captain Donahaigh]

ooh, ooh, look! a dead horse! let's beat it!

 

I shall agree to disagree. When there's an official ruling (I.E. FAQ), I'll play by that. Until then, the BRB says if theres a rule dispute, roll dice- thats how it'll be handled.

[Oldenhaller]

all this over a boltgun

 

The Emperor is in the details...

 

:P

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed we can choose to fire it using the profile. The alternative is not using it as a normal Boltgun. The alternative is not firing it at all. A relevant option shoould we plan to assault afterwards.

 

The fluff on Telions gun say it's loaded with silenced shells. He has no wargear for normal Boltgun shells (fluff pedantry aside).

 

I agree with Steelmage above.

 

What Telion can do is either Fire his Silenced Special Gun, or he Can forgo his shooting attack, possiblty to offer his Voice of Experience to another Scout.

 

No if you want to claim the wargear entry for a Stalker Pattern Boltgun contains the same wargear as a Boltgun, you're opening a sticky can of worms.

 

Like letting a Heavy Bolter fire as a bolter, if the user wishes....

[Argon]

well i can see how he did get confused since GW obviously hasn't done english class in a while, the entry says 'can' which means it will or will not fire by the will of whatever uses/activates it. question is: why fire it like a bolter?! but anyway i think hes trying to get at something about the weapon being there for looks which i shall answer to this: if telions gun is an accessory then he can sure as hell throw bolt shells far and accruate "why you whippersnapper chaos marines! -throws 2 bolt shells at them killing the weapons expert and sarge- that'll teach those whippersnappers!"

 

Not true all the time, though. If I say; "Can you please turn off the light when you leave", there is actually no choice on your part. I am merely being polite. I seem to remember that the wording in the SW Veneral Dreadnought is written in a similar tone where you "can ask your opponent to reroll the damage result". Again there is no real choice on behalf of the opponent. The wording is merely a polite one.

 

If someone asks "Will you please turn off the light?", you can choose to ignore there request. You'll come off as impolite and a bit of a jerk, but you have that choice.

 

 

As for the matter at hand, I do not own the SM Codex, so I don't know what the exact wording on Telion's bolter is. However, I do know that Stalker Pattern shells are scilenced bolt shells, and if you add a M40 scope to this, you turn your bolter into an effective sniper weapon. Ye olde Deathwatch rules list such a bolter as being "a Heavy 2 weapon that causes Pinning tests but is otherwise identicle in terms of range, accuracy, and Strength to a normal bolter." Besides, Telion is a Scout-Sargent. It makes sense for a named Scout sargent to be a really good sniper, no?