Telion

[greatcrusade08]

Lets ignore all the fluff and poor wording, and concentrate on how this information translates into game terms.

Telion is listed as having a stalker pattern boltgun in his profile:

If we look up Stalker pattern boltgun's profile it shows: 36" range str 4, AP5 heavy 2...

 

In game terms we choose to fire a weapon, look up the wepons characteristics and use that to determine hits etc...

no-where does it say this can be fired as a boltgun nor does it list a second stat line like the missile launcher with the two different types of ammo.

 

It has been argued above that the following is an argument to why it can be used as a bolter:

Telion commonly carries a bolter equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

Whilst this is interesting the author of this post conveiniently forgot to write the first few words:

Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Telion commonly carries a bolter equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

This changes the situation a little, the sentence was actually a description on what the stalker boltgun really is, not that he has a bolter.

 

Another thing to consider is that the stalker pattern boltgun is not a weapon thats available to the space marine armoury, it is an IC's unique weapon much like the gauntlets of Ultramar which has the following profile:

 

Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile:

Does this mean you can fire these as bolters? No because although they are bolters they work differently, much like a bolt pistol or heavy bolter does.

 

How about Dorns Arrow:

Dorns Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has the following profile

A storm bolter, its blatantly not a storm bolter becuase it has a different stat-line, this is simply a desciptive term used to show what the wepon is, or its origins, much like the ganutlets of Ultramar, that had two inbuilt bolters that fire differently to normal bolters.

Or getting back to topic, Telions gun: Which has been modified into a stalker boltgun and hence fires with a different profile.

 

If you want to argue that it is a boltgun, then your free to do so at your own games/houses/clubs etc.

But the rule says that Telion carries a stalker boltgun, not a boltgun.....they have different stats....deal with it.

 

GC08

[Kairos]

Great way to put it.

[Oldenhaller]

Hey GC08, glad you've weighed back in on this one.

 

Lets ignore all the fluff and poor wording, and concentrate on how this information translates into game terms.

 

Surely it's that poor wording which is the crux of the arguement? If that poor wording wasn't there then there'd be no disagreement. If the rules for the weapon stated that it 'fires using the following profile' then there'd be no disagreement.

 

In game terms we choose to fire a weapon, look up the wepons characteristics and use that to determine hits etc...

no-where does it say this can be fired as a boltgun nor does it list a second stat line like the missile launcher with the two different types of ammo.

 

Where there are multiple profiles for a weapon ought we refer to multiple places - for instance a combi-weapon? I can only presume that the bolter part of the listing isn't there as it's quite common weapon in a marine army

 

It has been argued above that the following is an argument to why it can be used as a bolter:

Telion commonly carries a bolter equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

Whilst this is interesting the author of this post conveiniently forgot to write the first few words:

Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Telion commonly carries a bolter equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

This changes the situation a little, the sentence was actually a description on what the stalker boltgun really is, not that he has a bolter.

 

Not that he has a bolter with extra gubbinz? Surely this is still a bolter...it states that it is twice wihin the space of 8 words.

 

Another thing to consider is that the stalker pattern boltgun is not a weapon thats available to the space marine armoury, it is an IC's unique weapon much like the gauntlets of Ultramar which has the following profile:

 

Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile:

Does this mean you can fire these as bolters? No because although they are bolters they work differently, much like a bolt pistol or heavy bolter does.

 

It states, exactly like the stalker thaat it can be fired with the following profile - again why you'd want to is another matter.

 

How about Dorns Arrow:

Dorns Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has the following profile

A storm bolter, its blatantly not a storm bolter becuase it has a different stat-line, this is simply a desciptive term used to show what the wepon is, or its origins, much like the ganutlets of Ultramar, that had two inbuilt bolters that fire differently to normal bolters.

 

no reference to can be fired as and thus nothing we agree that yes it is a modified stormbolter.

 

Or getting back to topic, Telions gun: Which has been modified into a stalker boltgun and hence fires with a different profile.

 

can be fired with a different profile - which means it doesn't have to be

 

If you want to argue that it is a boltgun, then your free to do so at your own games/houses/clubs etc.

But the rule says that Telion carries a stalker boltgun, not a boltgun.....they have different stats....deal with it.

 

GC08

 

not argueing with what he carries, just what the rules allow you to do.

 

Any chance you can answer the question posed to you previously - what differentiates between rules and fluff in a codex?

 

Cheers

 

~O

[Captain Donahaigh]

Besides, Telion is a Scout-Sargent. It makes sense for a named Scout sargent to be a really good sniper, no?

 

since this is an argument about the fluff, I'll address it: yes, it makes sense for a named scout sarge to be an excellent sniper. it makes even more sense for that named scout sarge tasked with training not just sharpshooters but ALL scouts to have a lovingly gunsmithed boltgun that is capable of performing two roles: that of normal bolter and sniper rifle.

[Gentlemanloser]

If we're going the fluff route, he only 'commonly' carriers that Stalker Bolter. So sometimes (like a dice off with your opponent) he wouldn't be carrying it into battle.

 

And as he's given no other wargear otpions, that must mean uncommonly, he only takes his Bolt Pistol into the feild with him.

 

Maybe he's run out of Stalker Shells... ;)

[Praeger]

Guys - keep the comments on the topic and only on the topic. I dont care if you like the rules, think who ever made them is a fool, that they where not play tested, or whatever else your opinions are - unless it is the RULES then dont post. Very simple.

 

As to the rule itself - personally im still waiting on any other president to show that this weapon can be used other then its described.

 

Other weapons with multiple profiles say EXACTLY what those profiles are.

 

Sonic weapons - CAN be fired with X profile OR Y profile.

 

Combi weapons - CAN be fired as a bolter OR as weapon X once per game

 

As mentioned earlier there are numerous times through the rules where "can" is used to say something you can do. Your choice if you do it. but you can do that or nothing. No other choices are given.

 

CAN assault into cover, if so done with these restrictions

 

CAN fire at a unit in LOS

 

As to the fluff and where it starts and ends, really this should be obvious.

 

Fluff is DESCRIPTIVE TEXT.

 

RULES are how things work.

 

Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Telion commonly carries a bolter equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

 

First part

Stalker Pattern Boltgun:

is the TOPIC or HEADING - not the rule itself but from now on if another model or unit was armed with a stalker pattern boltgun it would refer back to here.

 

second part

Telion commonly carries a bolter equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

is the FLUFF. Its not talking about what to call it. Its not talking about how it works. It is talking about what it looks like. This is fluff. Not rules.

 

The last bit is the rules. the profile. This is how it works.

 

Now looking again at every other time the word "can" is used by GW we really can see how this rule works.

 

Can is ALWAYS used in two ways - a choice between doing nothing and doing something, OR a choice between doing one of two or more things.

 

In the first case it is always worded "can do this" just like this rule is.

 

In the second case it ALWAYS lists what the other option is - can fire the boltgun OR weapon X, can fire profile X OR profile Y - this weapon does not have this choice listed.

 

Going with these simple observations there really isnt anything that shows he is -A- armed with a boltgun or -B- has any other mode of fire other then listed

 

Remember- a scout does not get the scout USR because of his NAME or his FLUFF but because it is specificly listed under his rules. Names and fluff dont count for anything.

[greatcrusade08]

Wow what can i add the Prager hasnt already posted.

 

Fluff is DESCRIPTIVE TEXT.

 

RULES are how things work.

 

This is how it is, the rules for the stalker pattern boltgun are listed as 36" Str 4 AP 5 Heavy2, unless someone shows that it can be fired as anything other than this, and quoted rules to back this point, then the whole argument is pointless.

 

On the flip-side, i can completely understand the confusion with the wording, its obvious GW dont employ clever wordsmiths, this being said most people can differentiate Fluff and rules, for those who cant.....use RAW

 

If it requires interpreting single words to try and find alternate meanings to the rules, then chances are its wrong, GW doesnt hide rules, they state them clearly!

 

GC08

 

Hey GC08, glad you've weighed back in on this one.

Isnt it nice when the opposing side is pleasant, always brightens up my day...thanks O~

[rekrulcinam]

Stalker pattern boltgun : Telion commonly carries a boltgun equiped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It can be fired with the folloing profile - range etc

What part of 'carries a boltgun' doesn't make sense? I read it very clearly that he has a boltgun that he can CHOOSE to fire a different way.

 

The special profile is not representative fluff-wise of his GUN... rather, his SKILL with the gun. HE'S so good with a bolter that he can snipe with it. It's also silenced.

 

So:

 

Let's break down the RAW:

It clearly says that it's a boltgun. Well, that was simple.

 

Let's break down the RAI:

It's Heavy because he's got to aim careful.

It's 36" range cause he's ultra nasty with it.

It's rending to represent his ability to cap fools in the dome.

He can rapid fire it with a regular bolter profile because... it's a friggin bolter!

 

Telion- "Oh, sweet emperor... I moved my foot. That means that this bolter that I'm holding is completely useless, because I can't fire it at these orks that are 6 feet away. Well, that sucks for me." Seriously, you're kidding. Right?

 

He has a bolt pistol too. If your opponent wants to cry so much about it, just fire that. You're only losing a single shot.

[Gentlemanloser]

Please highlight his wargear entry for non silenced normal Boltgun shells.

 

And what happens if it's an uncommon time and he doesn't carry his Stalker Pattern Boltgun?

[greatcrusade08]

Stalker pattern boltgun : Telion commonly carries a boltgun equiped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It can be fired with the folloing profile - range etc

What part of 'carries a boltgun' doesn't make sense? I read it very clearly that he has a boltgun that he can CHOOSE to fire a different way.

OK...here goes...again, the passage is a description of what the stalker pattern bolter is..

It DOES NOT say this is a bolter.

It SAYS this is a bolter equipped with targeter and silenced shells. These modifications change it from a bolter into a stalker pattern bolter. (which is what Telion is armed with, just check his wargear)

 

This cannot be clearer.

A bolter is a rapid fire weapon a stalker pattern bolter is a heavy weapon.

 

The special profile is not representative fluff-wise of his GUN... rather, his SKILL with the gun. HE'S so good with a bolter that he can snipe with it. It's also silenced.

 

It's Heavy because he's got to aim careful.

It's 36" range cause he's ultra nasty with it.

It's rending to represent his ability to cap fools in the dome.

where is it written that this is the case, there is no fluff that says it has a longer range because of his abilities, he has a higher BS and special rules to represent his abilities....stop making stuff up, its really not cool :D

 

Let's break down the RAW:

It clearly says that it's a boltgun. Well, that was simple.

Actually RAW means rules NOT fluff, its rules say it has the following stats.......

Not.....it can also be fired as a standard bolter.

 

it can also be fired as a standard bolter.

You need this to let you use the weapon as a standard bolter under RAW....

 

GC08

[Oldenhaller]

Stalker pattern boltgun : Telion commonly carries a boltgun equiped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It can be fired with the folloing profile - range etc

What part of 'carries a boltgun' doesn't make sense? I read it very clearly that he has a boltgun that he can CHOOSE to fire a different way.

OK...here goes...again, the passage is a description of what the stalker pattern bolter is..

It DOES NOT say this is a bolter.

It SAYS this is a bolter equipped with targeter and silenced shells. These modifications change it from a bolter into a stalker pattern bolter. (which is what Telion is armed with, just check his wargear)

 

GC08

 

So the Stalker pattern bolter is the heading - naming the weapon and thus giving any information which you'd refer to with the rules?

 

Yup, that seems quitre reasonable, and the fluff which describes the gun is clearly identifiable as it has descriptive terms and non-headed information.

 

I'll see if i can find a bolter in the rules...using your rationelle;

 

Boltgun

The boltgun, or bolter, fires small missiles or 'bolts'.

 

The boltgun rules state that it is a boltgun (as per the heading) and any entry which states that a model is armed in their wargear with a boltgun. The first line is just fluff which gives us other names which the boltgun is called within the 40k universe and thus can be ignored in terms of the game. This therefore means that any reference to 'bolter' or 'bolters' would require a separate entry within the rules.

 

The rules for the weapon, the 'bolter' don't appear anywhere in the wargear section or under any entry I can find in C:SM. This also means that Lysander's bolter drill has no effect on anything but bolt pistols and storm bolters as there are no rules for 'bolters'.

 

Unless you'd like to point out where the rules for a bolter are stated otherwise?

 

- and yes I know it's a silly arguement but that's how it's written. If one line s fluff then how do we defferentiate between one or another?

 

~O

[Steelmage99]

You (generic "you") are reading to much into the text.

 

It's like Orks players saying; "Wazdakka is allowed to shoot his weapons even after Turbo-boosting. Notice how "weapons" are plural, therefore Wazdakka can shoot his Dakkaguns, Dakkakannon, Kustom Mega Blasta and his Slugga after having Turbo-boosted".

 

Telion is good enough as he is (ie. just with his special Stalker Pattern Boltgun). Just leave it.

 

PS. To those who feel like saying "the rulebook says a biker with one man on can only shoot one weapon", the answer is "Codex trumps Rulebook".

Just preempting (can I even turn preemptive into a verb? ;)).

[Kairos]

It doesn't say ANYWHERE that it can be fired as a normal bolter - sonic weapons can be fired as X or Y, missile launchers can be fired as X or Y, astartes grenade launcher can be fired as X or Y, sicarius' sword can do X or Y.

 

Stalker Pattern Bolter can be fired as X.

 

Note the "or" is missing from telion's weapon?

 

Maybe GW did intend it to be fired as a bolter, maybe they didn't, but it doesn't change the fact that it DOESN'T have a seperate profile or ruling that says it can be fired as a standard bolter.

 

It says that I can assault a unit if in range. Does this mean I can choose to shoot instead, even though it doesn't say I can?

[greatcrusade08]

Boltgun

The boltgun, or bolter, fires small missiles or 'bolts'.

 

The boltgun rules state that it is a boltgun (as per the heading) and any entry which states that a model is armed in their wargear with a boltgun. The first line is just fluff which gives us other names which the boltgun is called within the 40k universe and thus can be ignored in terms of the game. This therefore means that any reference to 'bolter' or 'bolters' would require a separate entry within the rules.

Im not quite sure what the point here is, a boltgun is a boltgun, anything that is different is given a different set of stats and (maybe) fluff, such as bolt pistol, heavy bolter, storm bolter, Gauntlets of ultramar that has twin bolters, arrow of dorn etc etc, if its different to a bolter it has its own stats....much like the stalker pattern bolter.

 

- and yes I know it's a silly arguement but that's how it's written. If one line is fluff then how do we defferentiate between one or another?

Thats easy one says:

Boltgun: Rapid fire S4 AP5

The other says:

Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Heavy2 S4 AP5 Pinning, Rending

 

Pretty easy to differentiate in my eyes. :D

 

Unless you'd like to point out where the rules for a bolter are stated otherwise?

You can find the rules for a bolter in the weapons summary at the back of the SM codex...

 

GC08

[Oldenhaller]

Boltgun

The boltgun, or bolter, fires small missiles or 'bolts'.

 

The boltgun rules state that it is a boltgun (as per the heading) and any entry which states that a model is armed in their wargear with a boltgun. The first line is just fluff which gives us other names which the boltgun is called within the 40k universe and thus can be ignored in terms of the game. This therefore means that any reference to 'bolter' or 'bolters' would require a separate entry within the rules.

 

Im not quite sure what the point here is, a boltgun is a boltgun, anything that is different is given a different set of stats and (maybe) fluff, such as bolt pistol, heavy bolter, storm bolter, Gauntlets of ultramar that has twin bolters, arrow of dorn etc etc, if its different to a bolter it has its own stats....much like the stalker pattern bolter.

 

Basically the arguement here boils down to whether the first line of telion's background "carries a bolter with...etc" constitutes fluff or not. As the Boltgun reference in the wargear section gives a fluffy description of what a bolter is, does and is otherwise called this sets a precident that this part of things should be ignored as fluff rather than rules. As the boltgun reference in the wargear section defines the boltgun rather than the bolter there are no ruiles references for a bolter.

 

Unless you'd like to point out where the rules for a bolter are stated otherwise?

You can find the rules for a bolter in the weapons summary at the back of the SM codex...

 

GC08

 

nope - that states boltgun again i'm afraid :D

 

~O

[Gentlemanloser]

Basically the arguement here boils down to whether the first line of telion's background "carries a bolter with...etc" constitutes fluff or not

 

If it's not fluff, I refer you up to an earlier post of mine and ask what happens when it's that uncommon time he's not carrying his special Bolter. And where's his wargear for normal bolter shells?

 

If it's fluff, then this is moot, isn't it.

[Oldenhaller]

if it's fluff then what else constitues fluff - eg. the line inthe wargear entry for boltguns? GW's slipshod editing means that its tough to argue a point when there are so many interpretations which are possible from similar entries.

 

~O

[greatcrusade08]

nope - that states boltgun again i'm afraid ;)

 

Oh i see where your going, your claiming that a boltgun is different to a bolter.....

Its the same thing, but it really doesnt matter, it has no bearing on this argument..

 

The stalker pattern bolter, has its given rules...it could say in its line of fluff, this is a giant marshmellow powered by monkey fat...it is fluff and has no bearing on the guns stats.....

Bolter, boltgun....silenced shells...its a moot point...

 

Telion carries a stalker pattern boltgun, not a bolter, boltgun, heavy bolter, storm bolter or anything similar, these are all different weapons.

 

GC08

[Oldenhaller]

Oh i see where your going, your claiming that a boltgun is different to a bolter.....

 

Well I'm stating that that arguement is patently rediculous as we all know a bolter is a boltgun is a bolter. I'm stating that if in two places it states within the first line of 'fluff' it states what is tantamount to the same thing, that this can be considered that a stalker pattern boltgun is a boltgun as it is reffered to as such.

 

Its the same thing, but it really doesnt matter, it has no bearing on this argument..

 

I'd say the bearing on the discussion is quite important as the rules/fluff (depending upon how it's percieved) state that it's a boltgun. If it's not then that sets precident that other guns aren't what they say they are.

 

The stalker pattern bolter, has its given rules...it could say in its line of fluff, this is a giant marshmellow powered by monkey fat...it is fluff and has no bearing on the guns stats.....

 

It makes a difference when considering what it 'can' be shot as. being a boltgun it can be shot as a boltgun or with the stalker profile. If it didn't have the option to be fired as anything else it'd not be mentionned, for instance (again) the combi-bolter can be fired as a boltgun or any of its combi-options...none of these have the stats listed for the weapons, does this mean they can't be fired as they don't have the rules printed there on the page?

 

I fear we may have to agree to disagree, I'm easy so I'd not mind either way and don't think it'd come up that often however the rules/fluff debate is something else which I think needs addressing so IO'll pop a post elsewhere on that one :)

 

~O

[Kairos]

So fluff is rules? Looks like you have to remove your whole army in apocalypse if fighting a titan because their weapons "Are capable of destroying whole armies".

[Gentlemanloser]

And being a Bolter, a Heavy Bolter can fire as a Bolter.

[greatcrusade08]

Yeah i fear that this will never be resolved, there seems to be alot of 'reaching' involved in the arguments,

Well I'm stating that that arguement is patently rediculous as we all know a bolter is a boltgun is a bolter. I'm stating that if in two places it states within the first line of 'fluff' it states what is tantamount to the same thing, that this can be considered that a stalker pattern boltgun is a boltgun as it is reffered to as such.

this is carrrazzyyy! (IMO of course)

 

Fluff is fluff, rules are rules, using RAW the stalker pattern boltgun gives no other options or stats for its use....End of

 

I will probably let others argue this case now, as oldenhaller puts it we will agree to disagree :)

 

GC08

[Praeger]

Well I'm stating that that arguement is patently rediculous as we all know a bolter is a boltgun is a bolter. I'm stating that if in two places it states within the first line of 'fluff' it states what is tantamount to the same thing, that this can be considered that a stalker pattern boltgun is a boltgun as it is reffered to as such.

 

By this reasoning all the following are BOLTERS and can follow those rules.

 

Storm Bolters

 

Heavy bolters

 

Bolt pistol

 

Stalker pattern bolter

 

 

 

Do you see the problem here with trying to claim fluff = rules?

[Legatus]

Point 1:

 

"Special Characters often have Special Weapons"

 

Look at Pedro Kantors rules on page 90. He has "Dorn's Arrow", which is described as a "venerated storm bolter". Notice how it does not have the same rules as a storm bolter.

 

Look at Telion's rules on page 88. He has a "Stalker Pattern Boltgun", which is described as a "boltun equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells". Notice how it does not have the same rules as a boltgun.

 

Recognize the pattern and drop claims that it has to work like a boltgun because the fluff text refers to it as one.

 

 

Point 2:

 

"Reading the same phrase 20 times is dull"

 

GW often slightly varries a rules phrase so players do not have to read it over and over again and make the rules text more casual to read. These are the examples from only the Codex Space Marines, and only the weapons with a single fire mode:

 

Page 52: Orbital Bombardement "uses the following profile"

 

Page 57: Smite, The Avenger and Vortex of Doom "has the following profile"

 

Page 66: Shotgun and Sniper Rifle (no textual transition)

 

Page 67: Cluster Mines "use the following profile"

 

Page 69: Deathwind Launcher (no textual transition)

 

Page 80: Demolisher Cannon "has the following profile"

 

Page 83: Flamestorm Cannon "has the following profile"

 

Page 83: Gauntlets of Ultramar "can be fired with the following profile"

 

Page 88: Stalker Pattern Boltgun "can be fired with the following profile"

 

Page 90: Dorn's Arrow "has the following profile"

 

Page 93: Gauntlet of the Forge "can be fired as a heavy flamer"

 

In all of these instances the rule implication is the same, yet there are four different ways how the weapons profile is presented. It either uses a profile, has a profile or can be fired with a profile, or the fluff text does not bother to lead into the profile at all.

[rat of vengence]

Good God, this is still going?!?

 

Could all those who think it can fire as a bolter find something to prove this, like where in the entry it offers an option other than fire/not fire? The mere word 'bolter' appearing in the description does nothing except tell us what sort of weapon it is. It tells us nothing about game mechanics, 'the following profile' tells us that.

 

I think the conclusive points have been done at least 6 times, twice by myself, and very nicely summed up by Praeger.

 

...walks off shaking head...

 

RoV