Telion

[Playa]

Hey,

 

we all know a bolter is a boltgun

 

By this reasoning all the following are BOLTERS and can follow those rules.

 

Storm Bolters

 

Heavy bolters

 

Bolt pistol

 

LOL! A riveting debate. :- D

I'll stir the pot by observing that, iirc, the descriptions for Storm/Heavy/Bolt/Pistols don't begin with -

 

" ... is a Bolter (or Boltgun) that can ... ".

 

Stalker pattern bolter

 

Whereas this entry - and that for Combi-weapons - does begin like that.

(Bolter? Boltgun? Bolt Gun? Anybody remember "Bolt Rifles"?) X- D

Heh. Where were we? Oh, yeah -

 

The alt-fire option predicated on "can" is directly related to this nutty little factoid:

Its entry says "It's a Bolter", yet some posters are saying "No, it's not".

Okay, I tend to go with the Rules as Written, but dissenters say:

 

"What's written aren't rules".

 

Do you see the problem here with trying to claim fluff = rules?

 

Heh. I don't think that's the problem, here. ;- ) My completely unsupported opinion biased by a wish to play instead of argue:

Imo, rules debates are about parsing clumsy phraseology and consensus within the framework of the *game as a whole*.

But, it's tweezing at the subatomic level to say a weapon explicitly described as a Bolter "isn't a Bolter".

 

Denying the Bolter adds nothing to the game, while allowing the option does - without imbalance.

 

So, I'll throw in my vote for "Telion's Bolter *is a Bolter* that _can_ ..."

 

@Oldenhaller - I know you're too legit to quit, but don't hurt 'em, Hamma!

 

 

Playa

[Kairos]

But does it say anywhere that it can be fired as a normal bolter?

NO!

[greatcrusade08]

LOL! A riveting debate. :- D

I'll stir the pot by observing that, iirc, the descriptions for Storm/Heavy/Bolt/Pistols don't begin with -

 

" ... is a Bolter (or Boltgun) that can ... ".

Actually thats not what is says at all, its says "Telion commonly carries a boltgun fitted with a targeter and loaded with silenced ammunition"

It is not a bolter, but used to be before it was changed!!!!, a moot point really considering its all FLUFF....NOT RULES

And i REPEAT using RAW the rule has to say can also be fired as a bolter, in order for your argument to hold water.

 

Okay, I tend to go with the Rules as Written, but dissenters say:

If this were true you would use the stats given fir this weapon, and not assume it can be fired as a bolter, it does not say can be fired as a bolter and as it doesnt say this it cannot be used under RAW.

 

Imo, rules debates are about parsing clumsy phraseology and consensus within the framework of the *game as a whole*.

But, it's tweezing at the subatomic level to say a weapon explicitly described as a Bolter "isn't a Bolter".

its tweezing to cliam it can be fired as anyhting other than stated is it not???

Its desciption in real life terms has nothing to do with how it works in game...otherwise i want movie marine stats.

 

Denying the Bolter adds nothing to the game, while allowing the option does - without imbalance.

Or put another way, allowing this rule, could change its usage and affect on the game, if its not supposed to be used as such, allowing it will imbalance the game as intended to be played.

 

So, I'll throw in my vote for "Telion's Bolter *is a Bolter* that _can_ ..."

Vote all you want, but you have yet to prove its anything other than opinion, an opinion with no basis in fact!

 

GC08

[Legatus]

I'll stir the pot by observing that, iirc, the descriptions for Storm/Heavy/Bolt/Pistols don't begin with -

 

" ... is a Bolter (or Boltgun) that can ... ".

Now flip to page 90 of your Codex Space Marines and observe that Kantor's weapon is described as a "storm bolter" and yet it does not work like a storm bolter. Special Characters often carry special weapon.

[Kagefal]

I'll stir the pot by observing that, iirc, the descriptions for Storm/Heavy/Bolt/Pistols don't begin with -

 

" ... is a Bolter (or Boltgun) that can ... ".

Now flip to page 90 of your Codex Space Marines and observe that Kantor's weapon is described as a "storm bolter" and yet it does not work like a storm bolter. Special Characters often carry special weapon.

 

True, Kantor's weapon is described as a storm bolter, but it also lacks the other major piece of the argument: that it CAN be fired with a different profile. Dorn's Arrow is a storm bolter WITH the following profile...

 

Telion's special weapon is called a bolter (explicitly, not just in the name), and it is stated that it can be fired in a manner different from a standard bolter, why can it not act as a regular boltgun? Does the addition of a targeter and different ammunition change what it fundamentally is? If Telion decided to switch magazines to one that fires standard bolts (which he could, because it's still a bolter just with some fancy stuff), does the gun refuse to fire?

 

(woo! first post!)

[Gentlemanloser]

Show me his wargear entry for normal Boltgun ammo, and I'll give you letting his Speical bolter fire as a normal one.

 

If not, I'll claim all my normal marines also all carry Stalker Silenced Shells, and can[/can] all fire thier Bolters using Telions profile. Which you shouldn't mind. Right?

[rat of vengence]

True, Kantor's weapon is described as a storm bolter, but it also lacks the other major piece of the argument: that it CAN be fired with a different profile. Dorn's Arrow is a storm bolter WITH the following profile...

And what other profile is that? It only lists one.

 

Telion's special weapon is called a bolter (explicitly, not just in the name), and it is stated that it can be fired in a manner different from a standard bolter, why can it not act as a regular boltgun? Does the addition of a targeter and different ammunition change what it fundamentally is? If Telion decided to switch magazines to one that fires standard bolts (which he could, because it's still a bolter just with some fancy stuff), does the gun refuse to fire?

Actually it is explicitly called a Stalker Pattern Boltgun. It is loaded with silenced shells. It makes no reference to being loaded with anything else, like normal bolt shells. He can switch magazines if he likes, just tell me where it says ANYWHERE that he carries them.

It cannot act as a regular boltgun because it isn't. It can't fire in a different mode because no other mode is offered.

 

Please read the rest of this thread to see where myself and others have very very clearly described how the word 'can' is not permissive of other options, UNLESS the other option is described. This is consistent throughout the Codex.

 

(woo! first post!)

Welcome, really. B)

[Legatus]

Now, let's not be ignorant of simple weapon type references and the implications. The "Stalker Pattern Boltgun" is indeed described as a boltgun, albeit one equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. I am sure if a special weapon is supposed to work like a boltgun it is enough to say it works like a boltgun. It would not be neccessary to repeat the profile.

 

But the "Stalker Pattern Boltgun" is only refered to as a boltgun in the fluff bit, and us lawyers don't care much for the fluff bit. We might care for that "can", but that is not an indication of additional fire modes, as you will see when you examine teh other weapons in the Codex.

 

There are two other weapons which are describes as "can be fired as". One is Vulkan Hestans Gauntlet of the Forge. It is described on page 93. The Gauntlet "can be fired as a heavy flamer". Obviously in this case no one would claim that it could be fired as anything else, since "gauntlet" is not usually a ranged weapon.

Then there is Marneus Calgar, on page 84. His Gauntlet includes a pair of integrated bolters that "can be fired with" a distinct profile. In the past this profile was that of a storm bolter, but in this codex it has it's own profile (the AP is different). YOu might want to claim that Calgar can fire one of the bolters like a regular boltgun instead, but he could not do so in 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition, so I have no reason to believe that is supposed to be able to do that now, and that simple "can be fired" does not convince me, really.

So here are two other examples of weapons that "can be fired" in a manner, without it indicating any kind of alternative fire mode.

 

On the other hand, there are other weapons in the Codex Space Marines that do explicitely have different fire modes. THere are the Sternguard Veterans on page 63 with their special ammunition: "Each time a Sternguard Veteran squad fires, the controlling player can choose which type of ammunition is used." The very next page (page 64) describes the Cyclone Missile Launcher: "Each time a cyclone missile launcher fires, the controlling player can choose which type of missile is being used." Page 66 has Scouts, whose heavy bolters have an alternate fire mode: "A heavy bolter in a Scout squad can fire a single hellfire shell instead of firing normally." Next page, 67, has Scoutbikes and their grenade launchers: "Each time a grenade launcher fires, the controlling player chooses which type of ammo is used." The Thunderfire Cannon on page 73 has three different ammo types: "Declare which type of fusing you wish to use before the Thunderfire Cannon fires." Typhoon Landspeeder on page 74, yet again: "Declare which type of missile you wish to use each time the typhoon missile launcher fires." Same for the whirlwind, page 79: "Declare which type of missile you wish to use before the Whirlwind fires." Page 97 has Auxiliary Grenade launchers and Combi-Weapons, page 99 has the Missile Launcher, and for all these weapons the player has do choose which fire mode he uses when shooting the weapon.

 

In all those instances of rules for weapons with multiple fire modes the rules explicitely state that the user can chose between the different fire modes. If GW has states this for each of every one of these multi-mode weapon, why did they leave that out for Telions Stalker Pattern Boltgun only? Instead, the Stalker Pattern Boltgun has the same rule description as Vulkan's and Calgar's Gauntlets, two weapons with no alternative fire modes either.

[Kagefal]

Then there is Marneus Calgar, on page 84. His Gauntlet includes a pair of integrated bolters that "can be fired with" a distinct profile. In the past this profile was that of a storm bolter, but in this codex it has it's own profile (the AP is different). YOu might want to claim that Calgar can fire one of the bolters like a regular boltgun instead, but he could not do so in 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition, so I have no reason to believe that is supposed to be able to do that now, and that simple "can be fired" does not convince me, really.

And I would say that the same is true for Calgar. Previous versions of the game may not have had the option, but we're not discussing previous versions of the game. This version shares fluff and the same basic playstyle, but the Emperor's always in the details isn't it? Not all players have the benefit of knowing/having played previous editions of the game. And if we were to go by previous edition rules, why bother playing this one?

 

... Vulkan Hestans Gauntlet of the Forge. It is described on page 93. The Gauntlet "can be fired as a heavy flamer". Obviously in this case no one would claim that it could be fired as anything else, since "gauntlet" is not usually a ranged weapon.

I'm not going to argue about Vulkan's gauntlets unless there is a rules entry for tiny 'nids, or theres an errata somewhere that has rules for campy Giant Robot anime rocket hands. :P

 

Calling something a bolter in it's rules profile makes it a bolter. It may be a bolter with extras, but it's still a bolter and unless the entry says that the new profile replaces the standard bolter profile it should still be able to be used as a bolter.

 

Permissive ruling is fine, but a bit silly as an argument. It's a gun. Because it's a gun we already know that we can/cannot shoot. There is no need for a special rule saying that we CAN shoot. If that were the case, Kantor is worthless in shooting phase, because his entry does not give the permission to fire the weapon. Just the stats it would have if it did shoot. But it won't, because his entry does not give permission shoot it. Only that he has it.

 

"Can be fired with the following profile" implies a permission to fire the weapon (a bolter) in a way other than a standard bolter.

 

And as much as you lawyerly guys may not like the "fluff" they're still rules. Rules for how a certain thing is supposed to look for WYSIWYG purposes.

 

For all the other weapons that have other fire modes, yes, the 'dex does say explicitly their other fire modes. Sternguard bolters have special ammo that changes their shooting profile, but they're still listed as bolters. I'd say that they can fire as a normal bolter as well (why you'd want to is another matter, but you CAN). Telion's special bolter is called a bolter in the wargear listing for it, making it a bolter at heart.

 

The argument that something that is explicitly called a bolter not a bolter is fantasy.

 

And that's a different game entirely. :P

 

/Does not use Telion atm, but if I did I'd have him use the special profile only. cause it's awesome. =D

[Legatus]

Calling something a bolter in it's rules profile makes it a bolter.

No rule for Telion and his wargear refers to the Stalker Pattern Boltgun as a bolter or boltgun.

 

"Telion commonly carries a boltgun equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells."

 

That line is pure fluff and has no implication in the game.

 

A "Stalker Pattern Boltgun" is as much a bolter as storm bolters are. See Kantor. Special Characters often have special weapons.

 

Permissive ruling is fine, but a bit silly as an argument. It's a gun. Because it's a gun we already know that we can/cannot shoot. There is no need for a special rule saying that we CAN shoot. If that were the case, Kantor is worthless in shooting phase, because his entry does not give the permission to fire the weapon. Just the stats it would have if it did shoot. But it won't, because his entry does not give permission shoot it. Only that he has it.

The basic shooting rules give him permission to shoot, the only requirement being a suitable ranged weapon.

 

"Can be fired with the following profile" implies a permission to fire the weapon (a bolter) in a way other than a standard bolter.

It could also imply a use of the weapon that would normally not be expected. Calgar's bolters can be fired together as an AP2 storm bolter, not the normal rules for twin linked bolters. Vulkan's gauntlet can be fired as a heavy flamer, even though it is not really a gun. the Stalker Pattern Boltgun can be fired at 36", heavy 2, and has rending and pinning. That's not what you would expect from a "boltgun" type weapon. You would usually expect some sort of rapid fire weapon.

 

Telion's special bolter is called a bolter in the wargear listing for it, making it a bolter at heart.

Are bolters, storm bolters, heavy bolters and hurricane bolters all interchangeable?

[Kagefal]

A "Stalker Pattern Boltgun" is as much a bolter as storm bolters are. See Kantor. Special Characters often have special weapons.

 

Permissive ruling is fine, but a bit silly as an argument. It's a gun. Because it's a gun we already know that we can/cannot shoot. There is no need for a special rule saying that we CAN shoot. If that were the case, Kantor is worthless in shooting phase, because his entry does not give the permission to fire the weapon. Just the stats it would have if it did shoot. But it won't, because his entry does not give permission shoot it. Only that he has it.

The basic shooting rules give him permission to shoot, the only requirement being a suitable ranged weapon.

My point exactly. So why do we need a special rule for Telion giving us permission to shoot? We already know he can because it's a part of the base rules. The "Can fire" bit in Telion's rules are not can/cannot shoot (we already know this). It's that his bolter CAN use the profile for it or the Extra Special version.

 

"Can be fired with the following profile" implies a permission to fire the weapon (a bolter) in a way other than a standard bolter.

... the Stalker Pattern Boltgun can be fired at 36", heavy 2, and has rending and pinning. That's not what you would expect from a "boltgun" type weapon. You would usually expect some sort of rapid fire weapon.

Which reflects it being Telion's Extra-Special weapon. Which is a boltgun. Just Extra-Special.

 

Telion's special bolter is called a bolter in the wargear listing for it, making it a bolter at heart.

Are bolters, storm bolters, heavy bolters and hurricane bolters all interchangeable?

No. Storm bolters and heavy bolters "resemble bolters", not that they are bolters. A water pistol might resemble a real pistol, but it isn't. But a fully automatic Glock 18 (even though it fires in a special way) is still a pistol.

 

As far as the hurricane bolters, Twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon. So yes. I would say that they could be fired as a normal bolter. Though why you would has the same problem as Calgar. you CAN do it, but why would you?

 

/note: I showed my girlfriend the rule in question and she concluded that you can choose to use either the bolter profile or Telion's special profile, but you have to choose at the start of a game and cannot switch that choice once it's made. Nice compromise I suppose. Either way it's an interesting argument.

[Kurasuke]

/note: I showed my girlfriend the rule in question and she concluded that you can choose to use either the bolter profile or Telion's special profile, but you have to choose at the start of a game and cannot switch that choice once it's made. Nice compromise I suppose. Either way it's an interesting argument.

Huh, I didn't realize that was in the profile.

The rules state whether you can do something. If it doesn't explicitly say that you can, you cannot. If the profile said that the weapon may be fired as a boltgun or as a Stalker Pattern Boltgun, you could do it. Unfortunately, it does not say this.

Gah, why does the argument have to keep getting repeated. Praeger summed it up very well a couple pages back and Legatus had an excellent post just a couple posts above mine.

[firesight]

This is a completely pointless argument. One side is just arguing "slippery slope" because they can, and the other is asking for proof, and their request is being ignored with repetition. So, to wrap this up, let's take a few other examples out of the C:SM.

 

Ortan Cassius - Infernus: This is a master-crafted combi-flamer, lovingly crafted and modified by Cassius himself. Note that the boltgunis loaded with hellfire rounds.....

 

The Infernus is a -boltgun-...yet it is loaded with hellfire rounds. Would you argue that he can fire normal rounds, even though his modified boltgun is loaded with one type of ammunition, and only one type?

 

Likewise, the Stalker Patter Boltgun is loaded with silenced shells. Specifically the ones for the Stalker-Pattern Boltgun. By mere rules standards, the Stalker Pattern Boltgun is a Heavy Weapon as represented by the 'Heavy 2' statline. Which means that although it RESEMBLES a boltgun, it has been modified, and therefore, is not a standard-issue boltgun (ala Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters). This can be represented by the simple fact that a Heavy Bolter fires stronger rounds than a boltgun, and cannot fire standard bolter ammunition. 'Heavy' is always made as a reference to the weapon itself, not the ammunition. I can't just load Assault Cannon shells into a boltgun and call it a Heavy Weapon, because they're incompatible. If we're going to start using the argument that anything resembling a boltgun, regardless of modifications or integrations, can fire as a boltgun, then storm bolters and heavy bolters should be able to fire at boltgun statlines, and I'll go ahead and outfit my entire army with storm bolters, since they could (by some odd logic) fire with both profiles under your argument. Doesn't make sense, does it?

 

If you notice, the Sternguard have Combi-weapons and special ammunition, yet none of their weaponry possess the Heavy attribute. This is because the special ammunition for Sternguard can be fired in a standard-issue bolter, and not a heavy bolter. If the two were interchangeable, then the Heavy Bolter would not need a Hellfire -shell-, it could just fire regular Hellfire rounds as rapid fire. (just as Telion's Stalker-Pattern Boltgun is modified for silenced shells).

 

Just like Pedro Kantor's weapon, Dorn's Arrow, is a venerated storm bolter, and yet it has been modified for power, and the ability for a faster rate of fire. (Hence, AP 4 and Strength 4)

 

Rebuttal? (Though I hope this ends it.)

[greatcrusade08]

I agree with the above post, we have entered a circular argument with the opposing side offerering no solid evidence for why a stalker pattern bolter can fire as a normal bolter. All they have is a line of fluff that says the stalker pattern is a regular bolter........or do they?

 

If we are going to argue about the wording then lets get it right...

 

Stalker pattern boltgun:

telion commonly carries a boltgun that is equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

 

No-where does it say this is a boltgun...only that Telion commonly carries a boltgun, which he could have left at home and is now using this one!!!!

If you want to get into a debate over wording, then you should have checked that you have a solid base to fall back on....

 

Care to rebuttle with this in mind??

 

GC08

[Praeger]

Im going to close this topic - personally I think it has gone on long enough, but as always if you really desperately wish to add something (and can convince me of your comments worth) please PM me and I will consider it.

 

End answer to this discussion as the majority of posters agree on seams to be this:

 

The rules say that you may only fire with the profile given.

You can fire with this gun, or not fire, no other option is given.

While guns with multiple profiles show these choices, this gun does not.

All guns "can" be fired as per the wording in the shooting rules and so this "can" in this rule does not mean any other firing option other then that given.

The wording "bolter" in this rule is not a rule in itself, but a description of the weapon carried. Thus it is fluff.

 

Personally I would like to add a note on a simple test to see if what is written is fluff or not - if the word "bannana" can be substituted for any word and the sentence still make sense, chances are your reading fluff and not rules -

 

Stalker pattern boltgun:

telion commonly carries a bannana that is equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells.

 

See? Does not always work, but does help :confused:

 

Anyway, topic closed. Thanks for the participation.