Defiler vs. Vindicator Debate

[Redbaron997]

So I was thinking, which does the Community prefer, and why. Since I take everything in pairs, lets assume you have 300 points available in your army, and want eithier 2 Defilers or 2 Vindicators (and for my sake assume you love symmetry like me and dont wanna do 1 of each)

 

(NOTE: For the purposes of the debate we are gonna assume you have taken Daemonic Possession on the Vindicator as most do, and it brings thier point cost close toghether.

 

So lets start off comparing the non-gaming aspects:

 

Defiler Pros:

Uniquly Chaos: This monstrosity screams CHAOS with all its being. Any weakling loyalist can field a vindicator (Even if only we can truly...possess it (Ba Zing!)

 

Intimidating: Do to the sheer size and look of this piece I have seen many people assign alot more anti-tank firepower towards it than it is worth.

 

Vindicator Pros:

 

Cheaper: While thier point costs are similar, thier monatary costs are not. The Vindicator is a full $15 dollars cheaper (And since we are getting 2 it goes to 30$ difference)

 

Ease of Transport: The Vindicator is on the Rhino chasy and is therefore much more compact and easy to store and transport.

 

Reputation: Everyone knows this thing throws out a Large STR 10 AP 2 template, and so they know they want it gone.

 

I think that sums that up pretty well, some people like or dislike one of the two models above, but personally i think they both look good.

 

GAMING:

 

Movement: About equal. Both will be moving 6 inches and usually shooting their cannon. The vindi can go up to 12inches, and the Defiler has fleet. So im gonna call this one a tie.

 

Shooting: First lets look at the cannons.

 

The battle cannon has a much longer range, and thus if you can see it, you can usually blast it.

 

In contrast the Demolisher cannon has a much shorter range, but is more powerful, particularly against enemies with a 2+AS, or a vehicle.

 

Now for the Vindicator thats pretty much it, while if the Defiler gets its cannon blown off, it can still pack some additional firepower in the form of a Reaper Autocannon, TL Heavy Flamer, or Havoc Launcher.

 

Assault:

 

The Vindicator is a tank, and thus has no assault ability, which is not good as it has to be in 24 inches to shoot, and thats just a hop and skit away from assault range. The plus side of this is that it cannot be locked into assault, and will almost always be hit on a 4+, but when it is hit it will probably die.

 

In contrats the Defiler has from Decent to Good combat abilities depending on how many extra attacks you make. The advantage of this being, you dont have to babysit it to protect it from an assault (although you may want to anyways) Another good thing about being a walker is that the enemy attacks are always gonna go against your front armour of 12, instead of the Vindicators rear of 10. Unfortunately having a WS 3, those powerfists are gonna be hitting you on a 3+. Another issue is that as a walker, you can get locked into assault. So if you get stuck in, your there until they die or break, or untill you die (Which may be bad, or may be exactly what you want.)

 

Survivability:

 

The Vindicator has a better front armour, but an inferior side armour. About an equal trade give or take.

 

Where the Defiler really shines is that unlike the Vindicator (Which if it looses its cannon is pretty much done short of ramming) when the Defiler looses its cannon its just getting started. It still possesses its back up weapons and/or its decent CC ability. This is much better over the long run.

 

Now if it was done there I would call the survavabilty a clear Defiler win, but there is another matter, and that is the model itself. The Defiler is big and scary and its model represents this, your almost never gonna be able to hide it, and will not likely get the 50% covered to gain a cover save.

 

While on the other hand the Vindicator is smaller and much more compact. You can easily hide or gain a Cover save.

 

 

So if you were gonna take a piar of one of these, which one? And much more importantly, Why? (We are assuming you have a somewhat standard army and that both would benefit you)

 

(Please do not jsut say youd take a pair of Oblits instead, as that is not the point of this thread as we are assuming you want a pair of vehicles, On that note a Predator with TL Lascannon, HB Sponsors, and a Havoc Launcher also costs 150, I am not gonna go into detail about this option, but feel free to voice your prefrence for it.)

 

EDIT: On second thought it seems unfair not to let Oblit fans have thier say, just make sure you say something other than you like oblits because of X, explain why you like them OVER the other options.

[Brother Nihm]

Similar topic

[minigun762]

With no disrespect to our awesome Brother Nihm, I feel that this topic is different enough to maintain.

 

RedBaroon I think you have a nicely done comparsion of the two units.

In my mind they tend to occupy the same general role (pie plate throwers) and for the majority of games, they'll be targeting the same units. The range issue is kinda of weird because depending on how you play, it will matter or not.

A Defiler will need to be tucked back into the corner of a standard 6'x4' table to really see any benefit from its 72" range. Of course at this range, its immune to alot of counter battery fire from the standard heavy weapons @ 48".

A Vindicator put 12" away from your deployment zone is normally within 1 move of being able to fire. A single turn of move and pop smoke should give it a solid firing position.

 

I think the main decision is how much energythe player wants to put on the units. Defilers are "more difficult" to use well because of the mixed nature of their weapons. They require an adaptable mind and a flexible army to properly use, otherwise they are "wasting" potential.

Vindicators are 'easier" to use because they're simpler. They exist to get within 24" and fire a single gun. Nothing too fancy about it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Defilers = smart players or Vindicators = stupid ones. I'm saying that the two units work best with different playstyles.

Personally I bounce back and forth between the two. So much of the advantages and disadvantages are situational so its hard to nail them down. When your Vindicator gets charged by that Assault squad with a Power Fist, you suddenly wish you'd taken the Defiler and when your Defiler is getting shot at by Missiles and Plasma, you would love for that extra point of armor on the Vindicator.

 

One thing interesting that I'm trying, put a Dirge Caster on that Possessed Vindicator. Its the same cost as a Defiler and now if you lose your cannon, you can go around ramming tanks or tank shocking units off the table. Sometimes this can accomplish what a giant cannon shell can't.

[Peakey]

lol, I just take one of each :rolleyes:

[the jeske]

that would either mean apo and 2 hvy supports or 2250 and a vindicator +2defiler build . in smaller games it rather depends on the army build . for a more hth based army [that also isnt a LR rush army ] defilers are better . the problem with both is that they got paper thin armor and big [vindicator] or huge[defiler] , this in most cases means problems with cover [and not just against deepstrike/outflanking units] and a shorter life of a unit that would be expected from a chaos unit .

[Warp Angel]

For my 1kSons army, I'm lacking in both template death and CC capability. The Defiler gives me both in a single unit and for my army build, is a better choice than a Vindicator.

 

I can see a Twin Prince Lash List not needing the CC and having the more potent template being a better option.

 

I really think the difference is situational and based upon the strengths and weaknesses of a particular list rather than being a straightforward choice of "obviously better".

 

This is a good thing, since it allows generalship to influence army build, not just gameplay. If you look at Eldar for example, there's no real choice when looking at troops: Guardians are clearly inferior to Rangers and Dire Avengers. It's very rare that you'll see guardians taken for much in a competetive tournament list for Eldar because of that, but you'll see both Dire Avenger and Ranger spam.

[DevianID]

I will chime in for the oblits...

First, are we assuming the standard twin lash tourney base? Because if the plan is lash to clump then dump blasts on the now clumped troops, 2 oblits bring 2 plasma cannon shots, which have a longer range than the similiarly AP2 vindicator and of course AP 2 is better than AP3 on the defilier's battlecannon, plus you can, if using lash, get 19!!! (yes 19, you can check if you find it hard to believe, tis a matter of millimeters) small base models or 7 termie sized models with a single plasma cannon, so since there are 2 plasma cannon shots that is potentially 38 hits on small bases or 14 on termie bases, better than the large templates can do.

 

Oblits can deepstrike of course, and 2 of them toss out 6 st8 powerfists, nothing to scoff at. As for toughness, while they are technically vulnerable to small arms fire unlike a vehicle, they can also be completely screened by a rhino and get a 4+ cover save pretty easy as well, so it would take 4 las cannon wounds to deal with oblits, which if we assume marines shooting would be 7 shots, those 7 shots will also neuter a defilier most of the time since defiliers rarely get cover saves.

 

Finally, if you need to switch gears, no one does it better than oblits... IE if those orks are danger close, 2 twin linked flamers... if a vehicle is threatening you, get close for twin linked melta. No lash to clump up nearby marines--rapid fire twin linked plasma. Then charge!

[Redbaron997]

I will chime in for the oblits...

First, are we assuming the standard twin lash tourney base?

 

Well since the most of us don't cheese out on lashes (espically if we arent playing a Slaanesh army) this would not be the case.

 

:P

[Fire Harte]

Two vindicators.

 

I have one lash prince but I don't spam Daemon Princes because I have pride. :P

[Cale]

Right now, I use a Vindicator, because that's what I have. I've been giving it some thought, and have basically decided that you are right--the Defiler is just the better choice. I would switch to a pair of defilers, but I basically can't stand the kit (and it's kinda pricy, to boot). So, I think it's pretty clearly the better "tank," but I am not likely to use a pair of them 'til I find a way to kitbash something I can stomach aesthetically.

[Redbaron997]

The Dirge Caster on a Vindicator is a good idea, at least then after the cannon is gone you can send it screaming with rage at the enemy units. With a dirge caster chances are it will eventually cause something to route. If not that then it least it will disturbe their combat lines.

 

As for the Defiler, I like the look of it. It just seems like it would be an absolute pain to transport.

 

If anyone has one can you fit it in a foam transport tray if you dont glue the turrent on? How wide and tall is it? and how wide and tall is the turrent itself. Appreciate it.

[Leonar the Nutter]

cant anwer you last Q but i used a soul grinder for my khorne defiler, now that thing is difficult to transport

 

defiler is better than vindicator becouse it can do more than one thing (combat/infantry/antitank) and a vindy normal gets destoryed before it can get near something

[Brother Nihm]

Unless you use the Vindi as area-denial, in which case it's presence alone (even when hiding behind terrain) is often enough to let you 'control' that section of the board.

Few players wants to move a unit near a pie-plate of that strength.

 

As for transportation, as much as I love defilers and use them (over Vindis) they are simply too big and clunky to lug around.

So my vote goes for the Vindi there.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Seahawk]

I'd absolutely love a pair of defilers over a pair of vindicators, and I only have one of each right now. I excel with generalist units, so that may be my bias. As for transporting...

 

 

I do transport my defilers in Sabol foam; however, I fit them into 2.5" trays. They are actually quite sufficient...provided you care to do a bit of magnetic work, as I highly suggest it. It's easier for transport, harder to break, and allows for easy weapon swapping. For reference, I bought my magnets on this website because they are cheap and after ordering, got to my location within two days. I was able to measure the sizes I'd need (by measuring the piece) and order just fine.

 

Here is the layout of my tray. I can fit the defiler, a squad of new terminators, and a terminator or biker lord in there as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3681.jpg

 

(seeing the magnets might be hard as I've painted over them...where's Waldo?)

 

First, I sunk a magnet into the "neck" that attaches the upper body to the chassis. It wasn't hard; before glueing it the chassis together, cut away the middle and stick a magnet in there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3682.jpg

 

I also superglued a large one on the bottom plate of the upper body.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3687.jpg

 

For the weapons, one or two small plates were glued inside the hole, with small magnets on the weapons themselves. This allows them to limitedly rotate up and down with good attraction.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3684.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3691.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3692.jpg

 

I found a razorback turret sprue and corrupted it, magnetizing the weapons as well. A small one in each weapon and one in the middle support and you're good to go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3693.jpg

 

And here it is total:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3694.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3695.jpg

 

 

Now, if you don't want to bother with the extra work, then go for the 4" trays. Mine stands 4.25 inches tall, not including the chaotic iron halo on top. You can make your legs more splayed out to it's more crouched.

[minigun762]

defiler is better than vindicator becouse it can do more than one thing (combat/infantry/antitank) and a vindy normal gets destoryed before it can get near something

 

I noticed there was something that I thought goes without saying but it could just be a personal plan and not standard and that is I run a Vindicator (or Defiler) alongside a Rhino with CSMs.

 

This acts as a deterrent to assault the vehicle as its protected by some fairly tough hombres. It also means that if something swoops in and decides to fry my tank (like Firedragons tend to do...) the CSMs are able to exact their revenege thanks to a bloody rapid fire or assault.

In the case of the Vindicator, a Rhino is big enough to help give it a cover save (and protect the weaker side armor). Sadly Defiler's are just so much bigger that the Rhino isn't large enough to protect it.

[Redbaron997]

Thank you Seahawk for the pictures, that does away with alot of my transport worries. At this rate Ill probably magnet my weapons to as I just can keep decided about one configuration over another.

 

Also I was wondering about something: Hypothetical situation:

 

You have an objective and you need to have a unit within 6 inches of it to control/contest it. Would moving the Defiler up to the point, and then camping on it, be a good idea? If you station it right in front of the objective, the base size of the thing may keep an enemy unit from being able to contest it without assulting it unless they move all the way around it. Also if it did happen to get Immoblized and loose its cannon, you could use the TL Heavy Flamer to keep burning up a unit that went around to claim it on the other side. Most opponents arent gonna be thrilled to let you shoot a TL heavy Flamer at them every turn. Thats another reason I consider the TL flamer worth taking. The Reaper AC is take or leave in favor of the autocannon, but the TL Heavy Flamer is just an awesome weapon anywhere, and any time you get immobolized and loose you cannon you can set up an 8 inch fire wall (Meaning if anyone wants to manueveur around your now "harmless" defiler, they will get a nice crispy surprise.

[minigun762]

Also if it did happen to get Immoblized and loose its cannon, you could use the TL Heavy Flamer to keep burning up a unit that went around to claim it on the other side. Most opponents arent gonna be thrilled to let you shoot a TL heavy Flamer at them every turn. Thats another reason I consider the TL flamer worth taking. The Reaper AC is take or leave in favor of the autocannon, but the TL Heavy Flamer is just an awesome weapon anywhere, and any time you get immobolized and loose you cannon you can set up an 8 inch fire wall

I like how you're thinking but I don't think it will work sadly. Here's why

1) Many (but not all) units out there come equipped with the means to kill a Defiler, especially if its immobilized. Thats means grenades hitting it against WS3. Factor in the Power Fists/Klaws and some such and I think alot of units would actually choose to go through it (by assaulting it) then go around.

2) Many (but not all) scoring units tend to be in transports. Even the weak little Rhino is AV11 meaning that a TL Heavy Flamer is not very scary. I'd have little to worry about skirting around a Defiler in a Rhino and Eldar or Tau would worry even less.

3) Lastly, those units who might be scoring units who don't have a way to kill the Defiler and aren't in a Transport will probably be coming at you in groups of more than 1. Imperial Guard squads are the example for this. While hitting a squad with a TL Heavy Flamer would tear them up, if they move 3 such squad over to you, one squad assaults the Defiler to hold it up while the other two run around behind it to claim the objective. The assault squad is going to die quickly probably, but then the other 2 squads are sitting behind it and will probably empty some Plasma or Melta into your rear.

 

For being immobilized and without a Battle Cannon, the Reaper is just a better weapon. Much longer range and threatening to most anything on the board thats not in a Land Raider or Terminator Armor.

 

Of course you talking about this did get me thinking about something nasty. ^_^

Replace the Reaper with the TL Heavy Bolter. Now you have the Battle Cannon for killing light vehicles and MEQs and against true hordies, you dump so much S5 AP4 firepower into them that they'll die twice!. I ran the math and against T4 units and below, the Heavy Bolter > the Reaper. Its a great way to dakka the crap out of a horde army just before charging them.

[Cale]

Honestly, though, the odds are pretty heavily against the Defiler suffering both a Weapon Destroyed and an Immobilized result without dying.

 

Personally, I say stack up on close combat weapons. The Defiler's close combat ability competes with its battlecannon for utility. At the point at which it loses the battlecannon, if that happens before it is immobilized or destroyed, its best damage output will be had by getting it into combat as fast as you can--which basically means not shooting either of the other guns it might possibly mount.

 

Of course, if it becomes immobilized before it loses the cannon, it shoots the cannon.

 

So, the only time you really need those extra guns is when it is both immobilized and sans-battlecannon, but not yet dead--which, as I said at the beginning, is a vanishingly unlikely prospect.

 

Load up on CCWs--the extra attacks'll routinely do more good than any of the gun-arms you could bring.

[Seahawk]

I've actually suffered immobilized and weapon biff far more than outright wreckage. I'd say 1/4 games it lives without damage, 1/4 it gets just blown away, and 50% it gets one or more damages. Could be bad dice...whatever. It always feels so neutered and impotent when the cannon and legs go...it always happens to be the same turn where I was about to careen into close combat after battle cannon blastage, to boot.

 

I think at least one secondary ranged weapon is worth it...say heavy flamer or havoc launcher. That way if it suffers like mine have then it still has at least something that can shoot.

 

Another pro for the defiler pair is that it's such an awesome kit. It can be customized in various ways with different looks, can double as a soul grinder if you magnetize the base. The vindicator is just a brick with a gun or two...not very inspiring to my modeling side. The defiler can suffer 6 immbolized/weapon destroyed results before the next kills it, while the vindi can only take 3 tops, as another idea...

[Brother Delias]

honestly, if it's that big a concern, proxy up a likened squad of what you normally expect to face(loyalists), and do a good two to three turns between the two forces for each unit. Whichever does better for you in say... three 'games' of mock combat is clearly better all around. However, that being said, tactically efficient people know of a little something called "concentrated fire". That said, cover and/or conealment is your friend. Vindi gets both better than the demonic crab. I would honestly rather have my enemy trying to fire at a smaller, harder target then to have them firing at a weaker armored target that happens to have DCCWs... Then again, I also tend to Tanks Shock people off the board...