Tzeentch... Evil?

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I think it's quite simple, at least in a general sense. Evil is arrogance and unethical conduct, and this is exactly what Chaos represents: Violence breeds violence, manipulation breeds manipulation. Chaos is the death of wisdom and ethics. However bear in mind that the Imperium commits all the same sins in equal or greater measure.

 

That is of course your personal definition of 'evil' :tu:

 

I agree that Tzeentch commits 'evil' acts so to speak, but has to commit these acts, as he must scheme in infinite ways, some schemes will obviously include the deaths of people. Not only that but he is also the god of change. I wouldn't describe Tzeentch himself as evil.. Theres more of an argument in calling Chaos Space Marines or other Chaos worshippers 'evil' as they chose to willingly serve chaos (well at least in some cases!)

 

Chaos in the 40k universe is the warp... a natural phenomena, a parallel universe if you will, the creatures that reside within were directly created by the mortals in the material universe, they are a natural occurence, and in my opinion cannot be described as evil ;)

[Captain Malachi]

I'll agree that the chaos gods could be described as a natural phenomena, but so could the human race, in the same way as the orks are a natural phenomena. So if Tzeentch cannot be called evil, neither can any human.

[NielsPeter]

Except the emotions that coalesce within the warp are of such base nature as to be termed evil. Benevolence, forgiveness, abstinense et cetera are of such subtle nature (not to mention rare) that they cannot exist past a persons death.

 

And besides, the relationship between a chaos god and its worshippers and contributors is solely a matter of scale.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I'll agree that the chaos gods could be described as a natural phenomena, but so could the human race, in the same way as the orks are a natural phenomena. So if Tzeentch cannot be called evil, neither can any human.

 

No - individuals humans can be described as evil if they are a natural phenomena - just not the human race as a whole. :D at least thats how it could be viewed!

 

Or You could of course just go down the path of determinism ;)

[Brother Delias]

I'll agree that the chaos gods could be described as a natural phenomena, but so could the human race, in the same way as the orks are a natural phenomena. So if Tzeentch cannot be called evil, neither can any human.

 

umm.... orks were engineered....

[Captain Malachi]

So were humans if you want to get technical, they just never got to finish the experiment.

[JEFF4i]

Tzeentch is something worse than evil. Evil is a moral term, and by default, subjective.

 

The warp is the anti-reality. Everything we live in and appreciate in our little paradigm/reality here has rules, laws, these things are generally essential to our own sanity. Gravity, time, etc. govern our lives. They can be bent, but they exist and contribute to the ultimate causality of our existence and reality.

 

The warp is the antithesis of all that we live within and by default, are. Everything we know is governed by laws, by causality, the warp is the absence of it. Because of this, the warp is the opposite of ourselves. Everything is ultimately "subjective" for lack of a better term, time, gravity, all of it. There is no law in the Warp. To put it basically, in the Eisenhorn series he visits a planet that he describes as fundamentally wrong.

 

So, when the two overlap, there can be much turmoil because you are introducing some of said wrongness into the equation. The balance, truly, of humanity's place and the warp is manifested via the Chaos Gods, representing things of our lives that are dark, but also can greatly pervert the laws (excluding, most probably, Nurgle). Specifically, we see raw emotion in Khorne, which emotion can be devoid of many laws we appreciate. In Tzeentch we see a perversion of perversion, through the Warp, his greed drives him to control all things, even the uncontrollable(the Warp). Slaanesh is excess, not only of emotion, but of all things. He is a perversion of Laws is that he sees no governence of them to himself. Finally, Nurgle as always stand out, because he doesn't fit in like the others. Nurgle, mostly, just wants his little babies to grow and whatnot. I don't even mind him so much, I mean c'mon, Nurglings are cute.

[Rhydin]

As a Loyalist/Xenos, I can safely make the position, that EVIL and GOOD are definable by all terms, not by point of view.

Evil is consistent of

-Distasteful deeds, killing, murdering, schemes to kill, bludgeoning kittens with blunt objects, burning your local orphanage down, shooting a laser gun wildly in the local mall.

 

Good is consistent of

-Heroic deeds, protecting the innocent, defeating the dragon, killing the Daemon, making sweet sweet love on a saxaphone, and most importantly, doing nothing of the Evil list.

 

Sure, you can say Good isn't good, and Evil isn't evil, but I'll just say that red is blue and blue is red.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I love the contradiction here, that Gods are men. While i do not hold the 4 Chaos powers to be Gods 'in themselves' (see earlier post regarding creation of Gods through emotions) i see them as something different from men. If you think that a worshipper is the same as a deity then there is a fundamental flaw in your logic.

 

Well, my point is that Chaos is reflections of our emotions, yes? Therefore, they cannot reflect what isn't there. They can only reflect what we feel as a race. Therefore, for a Chaos God to be evil, the emotions they are reflecting must be primarily evil, and as the Chaos Gods embody such diverse emotions, they can't just be embodying negative emotions. Logic therefore dictates that yes, Gods are men, in a vague sense. They are what we feel.

 

To quote the Liber Tzeentch:

Always remember, the Chaos Gods cannot and should not be called "evil". They are simply exhuberant personifications of all those things that make us human. For you see, the relation between Chaos and the Mortal Realms is entirely symbiotic - much more so than any priest or cleric of this dull Empire would ever wish to admit. Chaos absorbs our own emotions and thoughts, from our most basic drives to our most complicated and high-minded ideals, and then magnifies and reflects those emotions straight back at us.

 

Chaos is us. Tzeentch is our every ambition, our every drive to better ourselves, coalesced and given identity. The only possible way such an entity could be evil is if the thoughts and emotions powering it were evil.

[Marchosias]

As a Loyalist/Xenos, I can safely make the position, that EVIL and GOOD are definable by all terms, not by point of view.

Evil is consistent of

-Distasteful deeds, killing, murdering, schemes to kill, bludgeoning kittens with blunt objects, burning your local orphanage down, shooting a laser gun wildly in the local mall.

 

Good is consistent of

-Heroic deeds, protecting the innocent, defeating the dragon, killing the Daemon, making sweet sweet love on a saxaphone, and most importantly, doing nothing of the Evil list.

 

Sure, you can say Good isn't good, and Evil isn't evil, but I'll just say that red is blue and blue is red.

 

All you have done is use good and evil as a label. They need to be defined as concepts.

Think of density as the 'thing in itself'. It has a set of rules that can always be applied. If you select two materials of equal volume but of different density then the one with the highest density will always have the greater mass. That is a concept that cannot be altered. If you want to say that good and evil are definable terms then you must, at the very least, define them and not simply list examples as that is not a definition. For example i could say that stone is heavy and feathers are light but that is not a definition of density and is in fact pretty meaningless without stating the conditions of either; as i have not mentioned volume.

 

 

I love the contradiction here, that Gods are men. While i do not hold the 4 Chaos powers to be Gods 'in themselves' (see earlier post regarding creation of Gods through emotions) i see them as something different from men. If you think that a worshipper is the same as a deity then there is a fundamental flaw in your logic.

 

Well, my point is that Chaos is reflections of our emotions, yes? Therefore, they cannot reflect what isn't there. They can only reflect what we feel as a race. Therefore, for a Chaos God to be evil, the emotions they are reflecting must be primarily evil, and as the Chaos Gods embody such diverse emotions, they can't just be embodying negative emotions. Logic therefore dictates that yes, Gods are men, in a vague sense. They are what we feel.

 

Men have a freedom of choice to act on those impulses, the Gods do not. That is a pretty big difference, so logically they cannot be the same.

 

To quote the Liber Tzeentch:

Always remember, the Chaos Gods cannot and should not be called "evil". They are simply exhuberant personifications of all those things that make us human. For you see, the relation between Chaos and the Mortal Realms is entirely symbiotic - much more so than any priest or cleric of this dull Empire would ever wish to admit. Chaos absorbs our own emotions and thoughts, from our most basic drives to our most complicated and high-minded ideals, and then magnifies and reflects those emotions straight back at us.

 

Chaos is us. Tzeentch is our every ambition, our every drive to better ourselves, coalesced and given identity. The only possible way such an entity could be evil is if the thoughts and emotions powering it were evil.

 

Once again please read Child-of-the-Emperor's posts on the concept of free will.

[alexwars1]

All the arguments here that tzeentch, or any of the Chaos Gods for that matter, in not evil is thus aying that if Chaos destroys their world, eats their children, turns their left foot into a crab claw or otherwise inconveniances anyone, thats fine, you know, cause obviously THAT isn't evil. No. Just cause chaos wants it to happen and invests all its being into bringing the doom of reality, it isn't evil. Just misunderstood.

 

By the way:

Evil is consistent of

-Distasteful deeds, killing, murdering, schemes to kill, bludgeoning kittens with blunt objects, burning your local orphanage down, shooting a laser gun wildly in the local mall.

 

Good is consistent of

-Heroic deeds, protecting the innocent, defeating the dragon, killing the Daemon, making sweet sweet love on a saxaphone, and most importantly, doing nothing of the Evil list.

SIGGED!

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

As a Loyalist/Xenos, I can safely make the position, that EVIL and GOOD are definable by all terms, not by point of view.

Evil is consistent of

-Distasteful deeds, killing, murdering, schemes to kill, bludgeoning kittens with blunt objects, burning your local orphanage down, shooting a laser gun wildly in the local mall.

 

Good is consistent of

-Heroic deeds, protecting the innocent, defeating the dragon, killing the Daemon, making sweet sweet love on a saxaphone, and most importantly, doing nothing of the Evil list.

 

Sure, you can say Good isn't good, and Evil isn't evil, but I'll just say that red is blue and blue is red.

 

All you have done is use good and evil as a label. They need to be defined as concepts.

 

Marchosias sums up the point here, you havn't defined Good and Evil as concepts, just examples.

 

To quote the Liber Tzeentch:

Always remember, the Chaos Gods cannot and should not be called "evil". They are simply exhuberant personifications of all those things that make us human. For you see, the relation between Chaos and the Mortal Realms is entirely symbiotic - much more so than any priest or cleric of this dull Empire would ever wish to admit. Chaos absorbs our own emotions and thoughts, from our most basic drives to our most complicated and high-minded ideals, and then magnifies and reflects those emotions straight back at us.

 

Chaos is us. Tzeentch is our every ambition, our every drive to better ourselves, coalesced and given identity. The only possible way such an entity could be evil is if the thoughts and emotions powering it were evil.

 

That quote from Liber Chaotica ends this debate essentially. The Gods CANNOT be described as evil.

[Hellios]

As a Loyalist/Xenos, I can safely make the position, that EVIL and GOOD are definable by all terms, not by point of view.

Evil is consistent of

-Distasteful deeds, killing, murdering, schemes to kill, bludgeoning kittens with blunt objects, burning your local orphanage down, shooting a laser gun wildly in the local mall.

 

Good is consistent of

-Heroic deeds, protecting the innocent, defeating the dragon, killing the Daemon, making sweet sweet love on a saxaphone, and most importantly, doing nothing of the Evil list.

 

Sure, you can say Good isn't good, and Evil isn't evil, but I'll just say that red is blue and blue is red.

 

Well lets take Heroic for example a Chaos warrior can do almost all the things I guess the one most likely to cause trouble is him being unselfish... Well what about a devoted Khorne Worshipper who doesn't want power, or to rise to daemonhood but only to server Khorne... he is then not doing it for himself he is doing what he is doing for khorne. Chaos also kill daemons and I guess in fantasy more than 1 dragon has been slain by worshippers of chaos.

 

On evil... Well I guess we can say that everyone who took part in WW2 was evil because they were involved in killing or in planning/aiding others to courses of actions which would almost undoubtedly lead to more killing.

 

What if those kittens have a highly deadly disease that could transmit to humans and you have no other way of killing them? Why is shooting a laser gun wildly in a mall evil?

 

Basically as the guys above has said you have labelled what is evil but not defined why it is so.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes Marchosias, I know about the free will part, I know the Chaos Gods cannot choose to act in other ways. That doesn't change the fact that they are comprised out of every emotion that we feel. Tzeentch is the drive to improve your test results, as well as labyrinthine plotting. The fact therefore remains that if Tzeentch is comprised out of positive emotions as much as good, then it will also be performing "good" acts. The reason the negative aspect is so focussed on is that would be the one more likely to send a legion of daemons do its bidding. So I don't think free-will plays that large a part, unless you are calling us evil. Only in such a situation would negative traits outweigh the positive.

So either humans aren't evil, at which point Tzeentch is at most neutral, or humans are evil, at which point Tzeentch is too.

 

@Child-of-the-Emperor, I'm not sure whether I can detect sarcasm in that post or not. Are you agreeing with the Liber, or going against it?

[Marchosias]

Yes Marchosias, I know about the free will part, I know the Chaos Gods cannot choose to act in other ways. That doesn't change the fact that they are comprised out of every emotion that we feel. Tzeentch is the drive to improve your test results, as well as labyrinthine plotting. The fact therefore remains that if Tzeentch is comprised out of positive emotions as much as good, then it will also be performing "good" acts. The reason the negative aspect is so focussed on is that would be the one more likely to send a legion of daemons do its bidding. So I don't think free-will plays that large a part, unless you are calling us evil. Only in such a situation would negative traits outweigh the positive.

So either humans aren't evil, at which point Tzeentch is at most neutral, or humans are evil, at which point Tzeentch is too.

 

Are you suggesting that the 4 major chaos Gods are the only powers that exist within the warp? It would be a mistake to attribute every emotion to these four alone as although they are the most powerful they are not the only ones in existance. They simply represent the grim darkness of the 40k universe at the mass of the emotions felt during that time. Let us not forgot it is an age of strife in every sense of the word; slaughter, change, decay. The ideas of charity, compassion, understanding and stability are all but forgotten. The power of the gods are 'dependent' on the emotions of the time, wasn't Slannesh born in the 29th Millenium? From this i don't understand your last point, 'So either humans aren't evil, at which point Tzeentch is at most neutral, or humans are evil, at which point Tzeentch is too.' The free-will part is essential to understanding this argument, you cannot simply say that you don't think free will plays a large part.

 

Regarding Tzeentch and 'his preference for evil acts'. Why do you seek to improve your test results? To elevate yourself above your current condition. Consider another person who didn't do as well in the test. If it comes to an interview then you get preference and take the job from the other person. Is that good? What if the reason they couldn't excel was because they were looking after a sick parent at home whilst holding down a job to pay for their tuition while the person who did better had a scholarship and a stable background. What if they needed the job to pay for better healthcare for their sick parent? What if as a result the parent dies because of a lack of healthcare? Could that be considered 'good'? It is a selfish act. You need to stop giving examples of 'evil' and define its concepts.

 

@Child-of-the-Emperor, I'm not sure whether I can detect sarcasm in that post or not. Are you agreeing with the Liber, or going against it?

 

Child-of-the-Emperor was highlighting the fact that you're arguing Chaos Gods are evil and then supplying evidence that says they cannot be evil. There is no consistency to your argument.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, I'm arguing continually that the Chaos Gods aren't evil. Your logic that I'm not being consistent is that you've come to a different conclusion, therefore I must have as well. Don't put your words in my mouth.

 

I'm not saying that the 4 Chaos Gods are the only beings in the Warp, only that the others are aspects or parts of the main 4. Remember, the Chaos Gods have very, very broad spheres of influence, so they will naturally comprise of all emotions that can possibly be a part of that sphere. Also, just because the game doesn't focus on positive emotions doesn't mean the billions of Imperial citizens will. Do Imperial citizens not feel hope, love, or any other positive emotions? Lets not forget the standard Imperial citizen believes all the propaganda thats shoved down their throats. The Astartes are the Angels of Death, killing all in their way. The foul Xenos are weak, stupid creatures, unable to properly fight back. The Emperor protects. They don't know the situation they're in, and on the most part would think life is quite good.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

No, I'm arguing continually that the Chaos Gods aren't evil. Your logic that I'm not being consistent is that you've come to a different conclusion, therefore I must have as well. Don't put your words in my mouth.

 

I'm not saying that the 4 Chaos Gods are the only beings in the Warp, only that the others are aspects or parts of the main 4. Remember, the Chaos Gods have very, very broad spheres of influence, so they will naturally comprise of all emotions that can possibly be a part of that sphere. Also, just because the game doesn't focus on positive emotions doesn't mean the billions of Imperial citizens will. Do Imperial citizens not feel hope, love, or any other positive emotions? Lets not forget the standard Imperial citizen believes all the propaganda thats shoved down their throats. The Astartes are the Angels of Death, killing all in their way. The foul Xenos are weak, stupid creatures, unable to properly fight back. The Emperor protects. They don't know the situation they're in, and on the most part would think life is quite good.

 

;)

 

Hmm.. i dont think all warp beings are under the sphere of influence of one of the 4 Warp Gods - Eg. The Enslavers and countless other 'warp beings' which are not actually daemons. I think its plausable to say that all daemons come under the influence of one of the Gods. (with a few exceptions: Furies - who are the tortured souls of indecisive mortals. Avatars of Khaine who are classed as daemons etc) The Warp is home to many creatures, not all are daemons :huh:

 

And were you saying that positive emotions should have representation in the warp?

 

One suggestion could be that the 4 Warp Gods actually encompass most the positive emotions aswell.

 

Hope and striving to achieve is covered by Tzeentch

Martial Pride and Honour (A lot comes from Astartes!) could come under Khorne

Love (which one could argue is desire by a different name?) could come under Slaanesh

Rebirth (new starts?) and natural processes could come under Nurgle

 

-----

 

The Formation of Warp Beings is inconsistent throughout different sources of fluff.

 

Could the Emperor technically become a god in the warp? He has a huge warp presence, and almost no physical form, his carcass is more of a shell for his soul. Could devotion, faith and emotion felt by trillions of humans galaxy-wide empower/feed his warp presence in a similar way to the Warp Gods. in my personal opinion i would say no, the warp gods were formed in the warp from such emotions. the Emperor is a powerful psyker but none-the-less still a man, not a warp being.

 

Just some other inconsistencies:

 

Gork & Mork? - Are these true warp beings? i interpret them as being created in the same way as red painted vehicles go faster! All Orks are linked by a dormant psychic conscious known as the Waaagh (which has loads of different meanings!) - Orks are unaware of this process, but it seems logical to suggest this is how Gork & Mork were formed. (heres a good link on it)

 

Eldar Gods? - Whats going on here?! are these warp beings? my guess is no as they once walked among mortals (although they could have been summoned from the warp, but unlikely) quote: "...Asuryan did so, and created a barrier between the Eldar and their gods, forever separating the two, and decreed that no god was to intervene or communicate with the Eldar ever again." Also if they were warp beings they would be effected by emotions/goings-on in the material realm which its pretty easy to say their not.

 

Think i went a lil off topic there! sorry! ;)

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Chaos Gods must encompass positive aspects as well, as the Chaos Gods ebody such wide concepts. As you said, is love different from desire, in the case of Slaanesh? As the Liber puts it, when talking about Slaanesh and the definition of "love":

 

Using this as an example, it can be seen that the Chaos Gods - who are considered by some to be the personified manifestations of thought and emotion - must also, and by their very nature, be a blend of many different thoughts and feelings bound together by an overarching notion (i.e. the identity and names that mortals give them) and given substance and independant energy by the stuff of Chaos.

 

...

 

Is, for example, the pleasure gleaned from a particularly attractive painting the same as a sadist might find in torturing a dog? Or is the sensual pleasure of eating a favourite delicacy the same as feeding debased thoughts through unsanctioned acts? It is the darker and self-destructive pleasures some glean from the alchemically induced ecstasy of opiate abuse, and the malevlent joys some find in petty cruelties or outright sadism that seem most related to Slaanesh. But is it as simple as that? I think my studies will find otherwise.

[Hellios]

I've always considered Gork and Mork to be the most powerful warp entities but their structure to be different than the chaos gods. The Eldar Gods are from an earlier time, thats not to say the chaos gods did not exist but that they did not exist in the form they exist in now. Although as far as I know only three Eldar Gods are left, The Laughing God (hid in the webway), Isha (possibly kept captive by Nurgle) and Khaine who was saved from being absorbed by Khorne due to being contaminated by the necrodermis and this same contamination allowed Slaanesh to shatter him (Because slaanesh was weaker than Khaine and could not have defeated him otherwise.)

[Marchosias]

So either humans aren't evil, at which point Tzeentch is at most neutral, or humans are evil, at which point Tzeentch is too.

 

 

No, I'm arguing continually that the Chaos Gods aren't evil. Your logic that I'm not being consistent is that you've come to a different conclusion, therefore I must have as well. Don't put your words in my mouth.

 

My apologies, but it wasn't very clear that you were continually arguing that the Chaos Gods aren't evil.

[Marchosias]

To quote the Liber Tzeentch:

Always remember, the Chaos Gods cannot and should not be called "evil". They are simply exhuberant personifications of all those things that make us human. For you see, the relation between Chaos and the Mortal Realms is entirely symbiotic - much more so than any priest or cleric of this dull Empire would ever wish to admit. Chaos absorbs our own emotions and thoughts, from our most basic drives to our most complicated and high-minded ideals, and then magnifies and reflects those emotions straight back at us.

 

Chaos is us. Tzeentch is our every ambition, our every drive to better ourselves, coalesced and given identity. The only possible way such an entity could be evil is if the thoughts and emotions powering it were evil.

 

That quote from Liber Chaotica ends this debate essentially. The Gods CANNOT be described as evil.

 

 

@Child-of-the-Emperor, I'm not sure whether I can detect sarcasm in that post or not. Are you agreeing with the Liber, or going against it?

 

Child-of-the-Emperor was highlighting the fact that you're arguing Chaos Gods are evil and then supplying evidence that says they cannot be evil. There is no consistency to your argument.

 

I see what you mean now. My apologies Lord_Caerolion i misread what you were saying. But in my defence i was watching the Man United Vs Liverpool game whilst reading your posts so i was somewhat distracted ^_^

 

I think we're on the same page, that the Chaos Gods cannot be described as evil.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I've always considered Gork and Mork to be the most powerful warp entities but their structure to be different than the chaos gods. The Eldar Gods are from an earlier time, thats not to say the chaos gods did not exist but that they did not exist in the form they exist in now. Although as far as I know only three Eldar Gods are left, The Laughing God (hid in the webway), Isha (possibly kept captive by Nurgle) and Khaine who was saved from being absorbed by Khorne due to being contaminated by the necrodermis and this same contamination allowed Slaanesh to shatter him (Because slaanesh was weaker than Khaine and could not have defeated him otherwise.)

 

Are we sure that Gork and Mork are actually Warp entities?

 

They are created by the Waagh! (link and link No.2!) - in the same way as i said earlier that painting a vehicle red makes it go faster. So its plausable that Gork and Mork don't actually exist at all, but their gifts/blessings (if they give any) are actually from the psychic collective conscious (the Waaagh!). Orks have a warp presence, so there violence and anger would technically empower Khorne. It all depends on the nature of the Waaagh!

 

We don't know what the Eldar Gods are either. I don't think it would be entirely logical to say they were warp entities. Old Ones maybe?

 

And where did you get the idea that Slaanesh was weaker than Khorne? this is how i read it:

"Khaine is also believed to have been assaulted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 29th millennium (Imperial Calendar). Following this, Khorne, Chaos God of war, battled Slaanesh for Khaine, rightly claiming the Eldar deity as his property. During their struggle, Khaine was driven into the material world, where he shattered into a thousand pieces."

 

Khaine was also weaker than Asuryan ("Khaine is one of the three surviving gods of the Eldar. In the old pantheon, he was second only to Asuryan himself in power, and was often shown as the enemy of Vaul. He is also the most violent and reckless of the gods.") and if Slaanesh was able to consume Asuryan, surely he could beat Khaine.

[Hellios]

I've always considered Gork and Mork to be the most powerful warp entities but their structure to be different than the chaos gods. The Eldar Gods are from an earlier time, thats not to say the chaos gods did not exist but that they did not exist in the form they exist in now. Although as far as I know only three Eldar Gods are left, The Laughing God (hid in the webway), Isha (possibly kept captive by Nurgle) and Khaine who was saved from being absorbed by Khorne due to being contaminated by the necrodermis and this same contamination allowed Slaanesh to shatter him (Because slaanesh was weaker than Khaine and could not have defeated him otherwise.)

 

Are we sure that Gork and Mork are actually Warp entities?

 

They are created by the Waagh! (link and link No.2!) - in the same way as i said earlier that painting a vehicle red makes it go faster. So its plausable that Gork and Mork don't actually exist at all, but their gifts/blessings (if they give any) are actually from the psychic collective conscious (the Waaagh!). Orks have a warp presence, so there violence and anger would technically empower Khorne. It all depends on the nature of the Waaagh!

 

We don't know what the Eldar Gods are either. I don't think it would be entirely logical to say they were warp entities. Old Ones maybe?

 

And where did you get the idea that Slaanesh was weaker than Khorne? this is how i read it:

"Khaine is also believed to have been assaulted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 29th millennium (Imperial Calendar). Following this, Khorne, Chaos God of war, battled Slaanesh for Khaine, rightly claiming the Eldar deity as his property. During their struggle, Khaine was driven into the material world, where he shattered into a thousand pieces."

 

Khaine was also weaker than Asuryan ("Khaine is one of the three surviving gods of the Eldar. In the old pantheon, he was second only to Asuryan himself in power, and was often shown as the enemy of Vaul. He is also the most violent and reckless of the gods.") and if Slaanesh was able to consume Asuryan, surely he could beat Khaine.

 

Well Apparently a new Eldar God is stirring in the warp Ynnead God of the Dead created by the vast consciousness of Eldar Souls in the infinity matrix and world cores of various craftworlds and planets and although this god could be created in a different way from the others I'm guessing its not. All it needs is a few more Eldar to die and it will be born and the Eldar will be saved from Slaanesh apparently.

 

Asuryan was the most powerful (King of the Gods) but that is not the same as Martial Prowess and as a Warrior Khaine was second to none of the Eldar Gods. Maybe Asuryan could have beaten Khaine if he had had Vauls (The one he made for khaine) magic sword but otherwise Khaine pretty much puts the smack down on all the Eldar Gods. The king may be the most powerful man in his country but that doesn't mean he will win 1 on 1 combat with any of his subordinates by default.

 

As for the bit about him being stronger than Slaanesh I'm sure its been written in other ways that didn't suggest he has been dominated, however by that bit of text I would have to agree from what's written there that it appears slaanesh was stronger, although it wouldn't be the first time GW has written two versions of the same thing and I have no idea what order various bit were written.

 

As for Gork and Mork I see what your saying and as I said they are different. I personally believe they are warp entities but rather than being sustained by emotions like the other gods they are sustained by the orks belief in their identities and existence. I guess the main difference of opinion here is if they exist when a manifestation of them is not being summoned.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And this is why the argument that there are only 4 main Warp entities is true. Think of it this way, the Warp is an ocean. Now, each Warp entity is a vortex in said ocean. At the 4 corners of the ocean we have the 4 main vortexes, the ones that are the most overarching concepts (rage, despair, hope and desire), with smaller vortexes orbiting around these larger ones.

 

So for way of example, we have the overall Rage section. At its heart, we have Khorne, the current dominant Rage-vortex. We would also have Gork and Mork, although Mork would be slightly positioned towards Tzeentch.

 

Now, before Slaanesh was born, we had the Eldar warp-deities in their respective sections. Most still came under the "desire" section, in one way or another. The only difference is Khaine, who at that time was the dominant Rage-vortex. When Slaanesh is born, She is immensely powerful, enough so to completely consume the other Eldar deities. However, with Khaine's powerbase of Eldar souls weakened, Khorne, the human rage-vortex, becomes dominant, and is just strong enough to challange Slaanesh. As such, neither vortex can get a true hold on the Khaine-vortex, so it's now stuck exactly halfway. Not consumed by Slaanesh, but not truly in the rage vortex, so unable to get most of its power. Khaine then decides to manifest as the Avatars.

 

Also, Slaanesh has always been the weakest of the Chaos Gods, except for just as She was created, at which point She was more powerful than the other 3 combined.

[Rain]

I think the problem is that not everyone is a relativist, and so for someone who is not a relativist or skeptic of moral philosophy, the chaos gods are most certainly evil and plausibly so as they are formed only from certain human emotions, and according to any deontological theory certain actions are inherently "bad" or "evil". Now I'm not saying that I think this as I don't even believe in evil as a concept in of itself, I just wanted to point out that I think different people have different a priori assumptions in here which is where the argument is coming from.

 

Then there's the fact that of all of the chaos gods, Tzeentch is by far the least unpleasant, as he is the patron of knowledge and ambition. At worst Tzeentch is some kind of avian less ugly Ayn Rand, which admittedly is bad, but not nearly as bad as the others.