Tzeentch... Evil?

[Razhbad]

A wise man once said Evil is a point of view. But lets consider Evil/Chaos for a minute, the 4 Gods are a reflection of human nature both good and bad, if they seem to mainly be evil then mankind is also mainly evil (after all look at how many millions the imperium has killed. All 4 gods have good Elements aswell.

 

Khorne: Also represents Honour and Martial Prowes.

Slaanesh: Is enjoyment, pleasure s/he is the insperation for artists.

TZEENTCH: Change, Ambition seeking of knowledge.

 

Nurgle is more unique and the least evil qualities of the 4, indeed he spreads horrid plagues, but he does not do this to cause death, but fear and despair, to nurture our own survival instinct, what he really wants for us to accept him as patron and to spread disease further. Whats more he cares for his followers more then any other and so the least Evil.

 

Now back to Tzeentch, yes he has an evil side but a good side aswell. He plots and schemes which can cause harm but can also cause good, he does this because he has to its his nature, but he also drive humans forward to reform.

 

1 Final Point, you can't really label deities with Human Morality as they are above humanity in so many ways.

[Brother Delias]

1 Final Point, you can't really label deities with Human Morality as they are above humanity in so many ways.

 

Ahh, but here is a clincher, as beings beyond the world of 40K, our moralities are far diffrent than that of the story we watch unfold within our games. As the Gods are a part of that story, it IS up to us to define them, because our moralities are greater than theirs.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Unless you mean greater as in "we write the stories, they're just fictional", Delias, you can't really define any morality as "greater" or "lesser" than another, as if the other is inferior to yours.

[Hellios]

1 Final Point, you can't really label deities with Human Morality as they are above humanity in so many ways.

 

Ahh, but here is a clincher, as beings beyond the world of 40K, our moralities are far diffrent than that of the story we watch unfold within our games. As the Gods are a part of that story, it IS up to us to define them, because our moralities are greater than theirs.

 

But if they are fictional and do not exist they are not evil because as they do not exist they can not be good or evil. If we take it upon ourselves to define and develop the story we can totally change everything. Your way again doesn't help because it won't explain why people define them as evil and if you ask the people they will probably say because they do evil acts such as killing but once more evil isn't define, rather other things are labelled evil.

 

Also what if the Chaos gods exist in this Universe as well ;) Tzeentch Whispers to me...

[Brother Delias]

considering that when i started this, I asked for others interpretations, and therefore, opinions on the matter, and then stating mine with reason to how I thought on the matter. True, they are fictional Caerolion, however, there is a basis on morality that we can subsume from the stories that have been written, and as a counterpoint to arguments against that, the same can be said for "real" religion as well, it is not an accurate retelling of history, the religions of the world we live in are based in a timeframe of near on myth and legend, as such, they are written on a basis of defining morality as it would stand to reason. As for the chaos gods, the same can be said to be true, however the defining basis of morality being two part, there is the issue. The first part, being the differing opinions of the two sides of the great war within 40K the imperium of man and the followers within the Eye of Terror. Largely, history is written and defined by the victor, as yet, there is no 'victor' to write the history of it all, at least not one clearly defined as we see now. Differing to common opinion, we also come to an impass, as to the one side, you have a tyrannical, homicidal dictatorship bent on galactic rule, and on the other side, a mirror image of the first group. Propoganda all for either side? Of course the imperium is going to say the chaos gods are evil, the first thing to happen within a holy war is to denounce the other sides gods as either false or evil. It doesn't help the image of said gods that their followers are also just as bloodthirsty as their opponents, so are the opinions of either side ones that really, in effect, matter? Of course not. So it comes to those that exist outside of the universe of 40K to define the morality, and therefore, the good or evil of the major personalities within said realm, it is up to us as players and fluff writers to define what is good and what is evil.

 

In effect Caerolion, your morality, in the end, IS their morality, and therefore it is neither lesser nor greater, it simply is.

 

to your point Hellios, you are correct, actions are not evil, they are simply labelled so. Which in a counter-point I had made earlier to someone saying that the gods are simply manifestations of all that is evil in the hearts of man, One cannot define the actions the Chaos gods do as evil until they see the greater picture, one that the Inquisition does a fine job at destroying at every turn. It is easy to say that Chaos is evil when one does not see what comes from it. The point in that notion is not to simply define what actions are evil, but why those actions would be good or evil.

 

There is no question that Tzeentch's mechanations inherently kill millions easily, but one must wonder why before denouncing such actions as evil. To each action there is a reason, to every question an answer, and for every truth, the thin veil of a lie. To understand it all, that is to know the meaning behind good and evil.

[Wayward]

To say if the chaos powers are good or evil you must first understand what they are and how they come to be. Long sotry really short, they are the result of the Ancients gene-toying and later disapearance, while they stood around the Eldar lingered all over the galaxy and there were no signs of trouble with the warp entities, it wasnt until the coming of man that the psiquic reflections of the warp became vortexes and started to "eat" minor, similar entities becoming the uncontroled powers that asolate the universe of the 40th milenium. Is this the result of the humans leaving a strong psiquic mark on the warp combined with their inhability to control it, I do not know. Maybe if the Ancients had stood there to guide en educate mankind the chaos powers wouldnt came to be, or would had been more benefical entities as the Eldars gods of old. In fact, when the Eldars reconstructed their civilization, without the Ancients standing beside them, the whole thing ended up with the born of the fourth power and the tearing of reality itself to the warp... Knowing all this, the chaos powers (I dont think God fit to their description) are simply the results of gene-experiments long ago uncheked and out of control or measure... A result more than an intention.

[Razhbad]

The first 3 Chaos Gods were not created by man (but mankind has since become the race that gives them the most souls). They are 65 Million years older then man, they came about in the war in Heaven. They herald the end of the War in Heaven and the eventual defeat of the old ones and the C'tan's decision to go to sleep.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

That was simply the birth of Chaos itself, not necessarily the Gods we know today. We aren't honestly given a timeline for them (unless you believe some RT/2nd stuff that says Mankind created them but... no, just no).

[Marchosias]

If you read Milton then Chaos existed before the war in Heaven and before the creation of Heaven itself. God used Chaos to create everything in existence.

[Wayward]

Acording to what I read, humankind awoke the frist 3 powers, given the fact humans borught so much war, suffering and death to the world in the medieval ages. Against a whole galaxy of moderated warfare, the maths wont do, but we can understand it from the view of the passion and such, being the old races somehow dull when it comes to feelings, a thing humans are not, neither the later Eldar. Its a thin argument, but thats what I read. It was also translated to Spanish, so meybe something was unacurrate, I should seek the original text and compare them.

[Razhbad]

If you read the Eisenhorn series (trying not to reveal spoilers), but suffice to say that the Eldar reveal in a vision that the 3 Chaos Powers are operating before mankind. The Deamon Codex is also a good source for this.

[Wayward]

BL should not be treated as canon, but stuff in codexes surely is, so I guess what I read is unacurrate/old fluff...

[Razhbad]

But codexes shouldn't really be treated as cannon either as they constantly contradict each other and updated. Each 1 is designed to big up each species the represent. Unfortunately the Rule Books, White Dwarf Articles & BL books cannot be treated as cannon for various different resons, yet these are the entire source materials so they have to.

[Menkeroth]

Sorry for raising the dead, but... I should, really :tu:

 

 

Also what if the Chaos gods exist in this Universe as well ;) Tzeentch Whispers to me...

I think they do exist, for many reasons... We can talk of it :)

[Llagos_Tyrant]

In the real world of course they exist.

 

Perhaps not as gods - but they certainly exist as a drive of human emotion or another part of life.

 

Khorne - Rage, Anger, Revenge, Defiance, Martial Honour, Protection - Bloodshed

Nurgle - Despair, Acceptance, Depression, Tenderness, Humour, Irony - Sickness

Slaanesh - Excess, Overindulgence, Laziness, Perfection, Beauty, Artistic Achievement - Pleasure

Tzeentch - Ambition, Plots, Hope, Revolution, Innovation - Change

 

They encompass negative and positive aspects of life which make their classificiation difficult. Shedding blood to save an innocent strengthens Khorne through bloodshed - but it's done to save an innocent, so is it truly evil? A Medical innovation could save countless lives, but develop a resource war in a foreign country to ease the manufacturing process, so is it truly good?

 

That's what makes the Chaos Gods or 'Powers' unique and interesting. In both this example, and the 40k-verse, they are neither good or evil. They simply are. Their motivation is merely an interpretation. Especially when we consider that the Imperium is supposed to be an unchanging leviathan that is trying to avoid man spilling his brothers blood, that doesn't allow time for cultural progression, and is at a reasonable enough technological level to keep even advanced plagues under containment - practically the antithesis of Chaos. The Imperium is Order so naturally the two are in opposition.

 

The fact that the Imperium and the other races refer to the Chaos Gods as 'Dark Gods' and their servants as Daemons is also hardly an aid to their arguments of morality. They would use such negative terms to label their enemies and such extreme measures as they do to contain them.

 

Anyways - I think I've made my position clear. The Chaos Gods are just that. Chaotic. They sway from one side to the other depending on the situation. Anything that is good that happened to someone is also the responsibility of anything bad that happened to that same person - Tzeentch. You can't really call him evil when he's just progressing life can you?

 

Or at least, that's my view. This is a bit of a rant so it may not be totally coherent ...

[Wade Garrett]

Are the Chaos Gods evil? Well, I happen to have a moral code that is short, simple, and just about every person can agree on to measure them against, let's see how they do!

 

Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil.

 

Hmmm.

 

Khorne:

Doesn't care about the wimmins, but He also cares not from whence the blood flows. Kids and the weak are fair game. The fact that he'd probably kill the evil strong first, THEN kill the weak doesn't win him any points here.

 

Slaanesh:

Manages to break the rules against women, children, and protecting the weak. Naughty tentacles for everyone!

 

Nurgle:

Actually might be able to pass "Protect the weak" cuz Poppa Nurgle is all about helping the weak. By turning them into walking pus bags who have had their pain receptors burnt out by flesh eating bacteria, but hey. He has a good intentions! Nurgle followers never seem to do much woman bothering (see earlier example regarding stuff being burnt out by flesh eating bacteria). And hey, he doesn't harm kids either! Well, he thinks he's doing them a favor with the horrible diseases that turns them into one eyed sword bearing daemons. That Nurgle, what a guy! Depending on how you define "harm", Nurgle may be the closest to Good of any Chaos god. But then you remember he has a female Eldar deity locked in his basement. Sorry, Nurgle, no means no. You're not good either!

 

Tzeencht:

Possibly the only fictional character who lies, cheats, and steals more than the late, great Eddie Guerrero. Might get some points because he doesn't seem to be motivated by gain, more by the fact that lying, cheating and stealing is fun. He and Nurgle once teamed up to stop Khorne from strangling Slaanesh while the latter was still manifesting....does that count for protecting the weak from the evil strong? Sorry Tzeencht, this one instance doesn't balance all the weak who you've stepped over in your various evil plans. He can't pass this test either.

[Hellios]

Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil.

 

I cannot agree with your code of ethics. It is far too simple. What if the 'eveil strong' is a child? What if I need to lie, cheat and steal to take their power away so that the weak are safe... Why do I need to protect the weak? The weak can be just as evil as the strong.

 

In the end a lot of it comes down to ends vs means. If you make yourself so pure you cannot help anyone... Are you commiting evil by letting evil happen? If you take the steps required to stop evil... are you corrupting yourself in the end? In the end a lot of things come down to how you justify your actions and how your actions and intent are viewed by others.

[Wade Garrett]

What if the evil strong is a child? Well, being sat in a corner and denied desert don't count as harm. So no worries there. Of course, in a 40k context that kid could be jammed full of Nurgle crafted viruses or Word Bearer summoned daemons...I suppose you ice the kid, blame whatever Plague Champion or Dark Apostle filled him or her up with bad stuff. Then get roaring drunk, strap in the Pain Glove, forge some skulls on your bolster, or all of the above, depending on who your Primarch is.

 

As for why help the weak...I think we're talking past each other. I read that as a ridiculous question on the level of "Why feed the hungry?" Or "Why doctor on the sick?" The strong, fed, and healthy don't have much call for help, food, or medicine, you know.

[Hellios]

As for why help the weak...I think we're talking past each other. I read that as a ridiculous question on the level of "Why feed the hungry?" Or "Why doctor on the sick?" The strong, fed, and healthy don't have much call for help, food, or medicine, you know.

 

I'm not going to use real life examples because then it gets into politics and then this thread gets the melta. People who need help need help. Not helping someone who is strong just because they are strong seems wrong. On the same note helping someone just because they are weak is wrong, they might not even need or want your help. Also if the hungry and the sick become the dead they no longer need any help.

 

As for the evil child... I wasn't thinking naughty. I imagine real world examples would be rare now, but at various points in time I'm sure their have been various very powerful children (Child Emperors and the like.) and although they may have not been running the show they could still do things. If I go to fantasy and keep it modern the HBO series Game of Thrones has a child king called Geoffry(sp?) and he is a bit of a ****. Normally that isn't a problem but when a little **** has the abillity to kill others for percieved insults... now you have problems... As for harm, like weak I think this depends on how you define it it. At the more open end of the definition... Anything that lowers the quality of ones life (present or future.) could be seen as harm, while a stricter definition might be restricted to physical, mental and emotional well being.

[Schultzhoffen]

I think that GW has made it fairly clear (rules/codexes/books) that the Chaos powers are more harmful than beneficial. Clever somantics as to what is evil or good is just that. Air.

 

The chaos beings desire harm. Therefore they are evil. I have NEVER seen the followers of Khorne betrayed as anything but boderline blood lusting lunatics or Slaaneth followers as anything but perverse. Neither Tzeentch or Nurgle are what I'd call caring and considerate towards Mankind.

 

Possible they COULD represent other aspects, for example artistic achievement but...they don't. Because, eventually, anyone who follows Chaos degenerates into evil, regardless of intentions.

 

The bottom line. What is bad for Mankind is evil. What is not is good. Therefore the Chaos Powers (as represented) are evil.

 

The hell with the Xenos. I don't care about there morals/ideals/ethics.

 

Any discussion of what they might/not represent in the real world is laughable.

[Brother Excedis]

If it is all in the eye of the beholder....and therefore the undeniable truth....

 

I say they are evil. No one can argue me because I have stated as such.

 

Thats what I pretty much got from most of what I have read. Now I'm going to try and throw a large monkey wrench in here by adding a statement to the end of that.

 

I say they are evil. No one can argue me because I have stated as such. However I also say they are innately neutral as they do not do the actual harm or plan the actual evils. They plan a goal. They hand that goal to their subordinates. They grant magical voodoo, awesomeness to their current favorite that sings them a lullaby each thursday. Then the subordinate decides to carry out that plan how they see fit. Its up to the subordinate how it is done.

 

If you truly look at it Tzeentch says "I want more followers." His subordinates then go "Hmmm...how to get more followers... I know!! I shall make this insanely twisted plot majigger to make you believe you are god, turn your followers to believing in you, and then reveal you actually magically worship Tzeentch when you kill your best friend to take over in a Coup de Grace."

 

Slaneesh says "Stimulation! Sex! Drugs!! GO!!" The subordinate says "Well stimulation form all of that can be accomplished at once. We shall make it so pain, and pleasure are one feeling. Then we get you hopped up so when you kill something you feel stimulation and when you get killed you feel it. Oh and a giant orgy will fill that void of stimulation quite nicely too wouldn't it?"

 

Nurgle says "My lovely children!! You enjoy my sicknesses so much!! I have created a new one!! What do you think of Papa Nurgle's gifts?" Subordinate says "Well I so happen to enjoy it very much...adn watching people suffer from it!! Now to release it on some world!!"

 

Khorne says "I'm thirsty.... someone fetch me a drink in a nice new mug. A different mug this time too!!" Subordinate says "Well he is Khorne therefore he obviously wants blood in a skull.... I mean come on!! Who doesn't love hte taste of blood in the morning to wake you up?!?! KILL MAIM BURN!!!"

 

Thus they are merely evil by association and being responsible for their subordinate's deeds. They just wanted basic things in life...not much at all.

 

P.S. After all..when do any of the gods actually step foot in the mortal plane?

[Wade Garrett]

@Brother Ex:

 

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings."

 

Or

 

"Chaos Gods don't kill people, people kill people."

[*Furyou Miko]

Might get some points because he doesn't seem to be motivated by gain, more by the fact that lying, cheating and stealing is fun.

 

I would say that the opposite is surely true.

 

Lying, cheating, stealing for gain can lead to great things. Robin Hood is the most famous example. The British Empire did all of those things, and worse, but it left behind a legacy of culture and science that changed the face of the world for the better.

 

Lying, cheating and stealing for fun? No-one benefits from that. It's the most selfish way to act, and selfishness is the essence of Evil when you boil it down. "Does it benefit only others and bring harm to none?" Then it's good. "Does it benefit only me and bring harm to others?" then it's surely evil. "Does it benefit others but bring harm to some?" Then that's a grey area. "Does it benefit only me and bring harm to none?" That's probably not evil, but it's what could be considered the thin edge of a wedge. "Does it benefit others and bring harm only to me?" - well, that's called self-sacrifice and repeated actions of this type generally indicate a mental illness.

 

Of course, you need to define Evil before you can discuss it. In China Mieville's Perdido St. Station, the Garuda birdmen classify beat and murder as forms of theft ("Guilty of theft of choice, second class" is the verdict passed down to a beater). These are things that under our legal system are considered 'malum in se' - 'Evil in and of themselves' (rather than 'malum prohibitus' or 'evil because we said so', like driving on the wrong side of the road).

[Menkeroth]

Lying, cheating, stealing for gain can lead to great things. Robin Hood is the most famous example. The British Empire did all of those things, and worse, but it left behind a legacy of culture and science that changed the face of the world for the better.

*facepalm* You really believe in that? It was the Roman Empire that did what've you said. And that's all - no other empire did. The greatest was and is only one empire - Roman one and only it could do it. But i digress.

 

Limitations we imagine and create by ourselves. Good and Evil've been created to control people, and many believe. But does it really exist? Surely no. And this topic has a lot of proves.

[*Furyou Miko]

While it's true that Good and Evil are purely linguistic concepts, what you're saying is that it's OK to murder people because there's no such thing as evil, so it's not wrong (because murder is wrong because we class it as evil).

 

I can't see your society getting very far off the ground, to be honest, Menkeroth. All it'll take is one person who decides to kill his neighbour and the village will devolve into sunday school at khorne church.

 

Amoralism doesn't work unless you combine it with emotionlessness. Which isn't a word, but I can't think of the one that should be there.