Questions about combinations of WH

[Mosk]

I have read a ton of stuff about using Witch Hunters. I just get simple answers on how to use single units, not multiple units working along with each other. So I have specific questions that I want your opinions on.

 

1.) How do you effectively use sisters of battle mounted in a rhino?

 

2.) How should you use a celestine squad mounted in a rhino/s,sisters of battle squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a dominion squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a seraphem squad/s ,and a retributor squad/s in a rhino/s / immolator/s? What would each unit do to use all 5 types of these sisters in unison? How would you use all 5 of these units unmounted?

 

3.) How would you use an exorcist w/ retributers?

 

4.) How would you best use an exorcist, retributers, and penitent engines together?

 

5.) What is the best way to use a rhino?

[Melissia]

My tactica discusses many of these questions.

 

As for how to use an exorcist with retributors? The Exorcist is not a transport, if that's what you're asking... if you mean one exorcist choice and one retributors choice? Well, the Exorcist will attack the big, expensive targets, while the Retributors will attack the smaller, more numerous targets....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

1.) How do you effectively use sisters of battle mounted in a rhino?

 

VSS with Book+bolter, 9 x SoB, heavy flamer, meltagun, Rhino, extra armour, smokes

(209 points)

 

My advice would be to drive them onto objectives, clearing a path using the embarked SoB.

 

Turn 1: Turn on smokes, bum-rush 12"

Turn 2: Continue moving 12". If a target of oppertunity presents itself, slow to 6" and pop a Sister out of the top hatch to shoot. If a vehicle or Monstrous Creature, use the meltagun; if foot-slogging infantry, use the heavy flamer.

Turn 3: You should reach the objective by now. Leave the SoB inside the Rhino, they're much safer. If you need to clear the objective of a squad of enemy infantry, move the Rhino to shield the SoB from other enemy units (ie his backfield fire support), then hop out and rapid-fire+torch+melta the enemy unit. Activating 'Divine Guidance' is fantastic when combined with rapid-firing bolters and the heavy flamer. If you expect to get charged (and the enemy unit has Rending or power weapon attacks), you might wanna consider trying 'Spirit of the Martyr'.

2.) How should you use a celestine squad mounted in a rhino/s,sisters of battle squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a dominion squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a seraphem squad/s ,and a retributor squad/s in a rhino/s / immolator/s? What would each unit do to use all 5 types of these sisters in unison? How would you use all 5 of these units unmounted?

 

Celestians should only be taken as retinue, you should focus on getting as many Troop squads as possible (they're awesome, and your only scoring units).

Seraphim > Dominions, 'nuff said.

Retributors are a static fire support unit (always take quad heavy bolters, multi-meltas are terrible), they should not be given a transport. Immolaters are kinda mediocre, TBH; it's cool to always fire the twin-linked heavy flamer, but Rhinos are cheaper and you already get a heavy flamer from the embarked squad.

 

3.) How would you use an exorcist w/ retributers?

 

Stick the Retributors into a good sniping position, preferably in some hard cover (like a terrain piece or a building). The Exorcist is a lot tougher, so you can place it more freely (although try to claim hull down if you can). Retributors focus on eliminating enemy infantry and Monstrous Creatures (with 12 shots at S5 and 'Divine Guidance' turned on they don't do too bad at eliminating big stuff, usually able to chip a few wounds off). The Exorcist is general purpose destruction, although if pressed it is probably an anti-tank unit.

 

4.) How would you best use an exorcist, retributers, and penitent engines together?

 

Well, Pentient Engines really aren't worth the effort, but if you really want to use them, you'll need a Priest (who is probably best placed on your Canoness+Celestian retinue) to unlock them. I guess you'd use the Retributors+Exorcist to lay down covering fire, while the Pentients crash into enemy lines and draw fire.

 

5.) What is the best way to use a rhino?

 

As a transport :lol: I dunno, it has a few uses. Blocking LOS to your SoB squads, hiding them from anti-infantry fire, granting 'hull down' to your Exorcists, and obviously getting your SoB squads from your DZ to the objectives.

[panbient]

4.) How would you best use an exorcist, retributers, and penitent engines together?

 

another thing to note, a single penitent engine running solo is worthless. you need at least two in order for the unit to be effective and have a chance at getting into CC

[Deadshane]

I have read a ton of stuff about using Witch Hunters. I just get simple answers on how to use single units, not multiple units working along with each other. So I have specific questions that I want your opinions on.

 

1.) How do you effectively use sisters of battle mounted in a rhino?

Personally, I like to arm them with flamer/heavy flamer. Make them faithful with the vet upgrade. Do NOT waste points on equipping the Vet for HtH...a better choice in this unit is a combi-melta in case the unit NEEDS to pop a tank. Two faithful flamer templates and a bunch of girls firing bolters. Good unit that.

2.) How should you use a celestine squad mounted in a rhino/s,sisters of battle squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a dominion squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a seraphem squad/s ,and a retributor squad/s in a rhino/s / immolator/s? What would each unit do to use all 5 types of these sisters in unison? How would you use all 5 of these units unmounted?

Celestians, beautiful Celestians. Dont mount in Rhino's, use minimum squads of 5 for maximum immolators. Arm either with 2xMelta or Melta/heavy flamer. Keep the Heavy flamer on your Immo. Celestians are FABULOUS for controlling HtH against small power weapon wielding units or monstrous creatures (5 girl units go invuln easy) you wont be winning combats, but if you HAVE to charge them to save a larger more expensive unit or Exorcist you can hold them up until his assault phase where you let yourself die...then blast the offender with your army which has maneuvered to extract revenge. The small faithful units are extremely useful when 3 (or more if using the bodyguard) are employed. Seraphim, again, dont like 'em. Many Top level tourney players dont either. Dominions are expensive, but sometimes get you an extra Immolator if your doing immolator spam.

3.) How would you use an exorcist w/ retributers?

I wouldnt. If you're just starting out sisters, start with 3 Exorcists. Let people complain, Exorcists are great, but they arent as effective as people give them credit for. Nevertheless, they're your only long range firepower for anti-tank...and they're pretty darn good anyway for the points. Experiment with Retributers later, but you'll prolly find that you're missing the exorcists when you pull them.

4.) How would you best use an exorcist, retributers, and penitent engines together?

3 exorcists, supporting each other, on your board edge or somewhere else safe killing heavy infantry and tanks.

5.) What is the best way to use a rhino?

Drive-by's, keeping units safe, but most importantly, if you've got enough.....

 

TANK SHOCK! Never forget that tank shock is a weapon, you can destroy whole units with a simple rhino. I've killed units of 15 necrons in the past with a tank shock....they wont be back if they fall off of the board. Never underestimate the ability of high leadership units to roll that 11-12...it happens, and its all the more painful when it DOES happen to a high leadership unit because chances are...its expensive. Escort them suckers off of the board and laugh that you didnt even have to shoot at them to knock them out of the game.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Personally, I like to arm them with flamer/heavy flamer. Make them faithful with the vet upgrade. Do NOT waste points on equipping the Vet for HtH...a better choice in this unit is a combi-melta in case the unit NEEDS to pop a tank. Two faithful flamer templates and a bunch of girls firing bolters. Good unit that.

 

The thing is, for less than the price of a combi-melta, you can get a meltagun on the squad. The heavy flamer+rapid-fire should be sufficient in most cases (especially with 'DG' turned on). A great way to maximise this damage is to Tank Shock the enemy unit into a nice bunched-up conga line, then disembark the SoB and hit every model with the heavy flamer+rapid-fire them. Another great aspect is that if you need to disable enemy vehicles, the meltagun can pop the hatch and kill that walker/tank/transport.

 

Celestians, beautiful Celestians. Dont mount in Rhino's, use minimum squads of 5 for maximum immolators. Arm either with 2xMelta or Melta/heavy flamer. Keep the Heavy flamer on your Immo. Celestians are FABULOUS for controlling HtH against small power weapon wielding units or monstrous creatures (5 girl units go invuln easy) you wont be winning combats, but if you HAVE to charge them to save a larger more expensive unit or Exorcist you can hold them up until his assault phase where you let yourself die...then blast the offender with your army which has maneuvered to extract revenge. The small faithful units are extremely useful when 3 (or more if using the bodyguard) are employed.

 

This isn't a strong argument. Battle Sister squads can do much the same thing (tarpit enemy Monstrous Creatures/assault units, add Faith points), but they're Troops and thus scoring units, and you get more bodies for the same points (not to mention the squad heavy flamer+meltagun). Spamming Immolators isnt a viable tactic; they're as weak as Rhinos and you'll find it hard to get in range to flame.

 

Seraphim, again, dont like 'em. Many Top level tourney players dont either.

 

:) Are you being serious? 'Oh, I don't like them, therefore they're totally worthless'. Yet you advocate spamming Celestians+Immolators, which is expending a lot of points on non-scoring stuff (not to mention over-priced flamer transports), when you could buy more SoB's (no such thing as too many Troops in this game) I don't like taking a lot of Celestians, but I know they're effective as a retinue option for your Canoness (because they hide her effectively, and they suit her close-combat role). They have a role, use them in that role and they'll perform well.

Seraphim offer the only jump-pack equipped unit in the army (ie not reliant on transports, which can get blown up). They're also the only ones to possess twin-linked inferno pistols or twin-flamers as upgrades, and twin-bolt pistols standard (which make them a decent assault unit, with a little Faith). They're also the best bodyguard unit for a jump-pack Canoness, and to top it off they can 'Hit and Run' (their own codex version, not the generic USR).

As secondary points, their Faithful by default, generate a +1Ld bubble (in addition to the Stubborn bubble from the Book on the VSS), and their VSS counts as having a Simulcrum Imperalis. Also, due to Deepstrike now free on every jump infantry model, they can potentially take out backfield artillery (they're the only SoB with the ability to Deepstrike). Thats pretty impressive for a unit with the same base cost as Assault Marines, and better upgrades (eviscerator on the VSS for same price as SM powerfist, instead of plasma pistols they get either twin-linked flamers or twin-linked mini-meltas).

I'd be amazed if anyone seriously passed over Seraphim. Even in those 'horde' SoB lists (ie 4+ mechanised SoB squads), Seraphim make excellent support against tanks and Monstrous Creatures. They cost about the same as another SoB squad. Most balanced lists find the room for 1-2 Seraphim squads, after taking 3-4 mechanised SoB squads as a strong core. A Canoness can get a better retinue out of Celestians (because they do hide her), but that chains her to a transport or foot-slogging. A jump-pack Canoness is one of the most dangerous assault IC's in the game (due to her equipment and mobility, especially now that she can Deepstrike for free), and arguably the toughest single model in 40k (one Faith act, she has 2+/2+ defences). Seraphim will get her across the board alive, and then she detaches to allow the Seraphim to 'Hit and Run', while the Canoness goes off to assault another enemy unit.

 

Dominions are expensive, but sometimes get you an extra Immolator if your doing immolator spam.

 

Immolator spam is ineffective, because you already can get scoring Troop units with the cheaper Rhino (and still do much the same as the Immolator, due to the squad heavy flamer from the top-hatch). Dominions themselves are not a good choice, because they are 'eggs in one basket' with meltaguns (you should already have plenty of flamers in your army). They're very much like Fire Dragons; they'll reduce any vehicle they target to molten slag, but they'll die horribly to return fire/counter-assaults. If you blow up their transport, they're just another foot-slogging squad, but unlike a SoB squad they can't score. You're honestly better off diluting your meltaguns across your Troop squads. Exorcists are better anti-tank support anyway, in most circumstances (although if you know how to reliably get the Dominions within 6" of enemy vehicles, feel free to disagree).

TANK SHOCK! Never forget that tank shock is a weapon, you can destroy whole units with a simple rhino. I've killed units of 15 necrons in the past with a tank shock....they wont be back if they fall off of the board. Never underestimate the ability of high leadership units to roll that 11-12...it happens, and its all the more painful when it DOES happen to a high leadership unit because chances are...its expensive. Escort them suckers off of the board and laugh that you didnt even have to shoot at them to knock them out of the game.

 

Heh, thats what I've done with Devilfish in my Tau army (most hilarious example, I reduced the supporting Warrior brood to mush with my XV8's, then I Tank Shocked the large Hormagaunt brood off the table. Nearly 20 models, lost because they were scared of getting run over....ahahah). The great combination though (against units that pass the Morale check or are Fearless) is to Tank-Shock the leading edge (thus bunching up the enemy unit into a nice conga line beside the Rhino), then hopping out and placing a heavy flamer on them+rapid-firing them to death with the disembarked SoB. 'DG' ensures this works even against heavy infantry, and even without the AP1 bonus light infantry will die horribly.

 

edit: Actually, this idea works very well with the Immolator as well (it can always fire the twin-heavy flamer), so you have a 12" Tank Shock range. The re-rolls to wound aren't as useful as 'DG' heavy flamer against 2+ and 3+ saves, but against lighter infantry it's positively devastating.

[Mosk]

[quote name='Melissia' date='Jan 5 2009, 10:34 PM' post='1831409'

 

As for how to use an exorcist with retributors? The Exorcist is not a transport, if that's what you're asking

 

I am aware of the fact that exorcists are not transports, But thank you for the link :P

[Deadshane]

Ok, you guys are right, I dont know anything whatsoever about sisters. 6th place out of 136 isnt very good at all. Maybe if I would've gotten just ONE more battle point you'd be impressed with best general.

 

http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=...le&artid=54

 

Considering that Sisters still play basically the same, I'd say I have a pretty good handle on them right now.

 

...and no, I didnt use any seraphim.

...and yes, I used 4 units of Celestians including the bodyguard.

 

Celestians>Seraphim

 

So tell me what tournements you've had awesome records at. This is just one of mine.

 

I've been arguing my points to sisters players for years and so far I have the highest battle pt Average in a major tournement TO DATE using sisters of battle in the United States with the possible exception of a sisters player this last year who used "Immolator Spam" in Las Vegas. He also went undefeated...and didnt use seraphim.

 

I've argued and argued these points hundreds of times before, but hard headed people simply dont get it. You have to look past the single unit and use the army as a whole....seraphim do not fit within a sound Sisters of Battle Battle plan. But I'm done preaching to the deaf....go ahead and ignore me. I've made my mark with sisters...and I've yet to be surpassed in major tournement. I'm telling you that Seraphim are terrible. Throw that info out if you like....but my tournement record (and not just at Adepticon but other tournements as well) says you're wrong.

[ArmouredWing]

Ok, you guys are right, I dont know anything whatsoever about sisters. 6th place out of 136 isnt very good at all. Maybe if I would've gotten just ONE more battle point you'd be impressed with best general.

 

http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=...le&artid=54

 

Considering that Sisters still play basically the same, I'd say I have a pretty good handle on them right now.

 

...and no, I didnt use any seraphim.

...and yes, I used 4 units of Celestians including the bodyguard.

 

Celestians>Seraphim

 

So tell me what tournements you've had awesome records at. This is just one of mine.

 

I've been arguing my points to sisters players for years and so far I have the highest battle pt Average in a major tournement TO DATE using sisters of battle in the United States with the possible exception of a sisters player this last year who used "Immolator Spam" in Las Vegas. He also went undefeated...and didnt use seraphim.

 

I've argued and argued these points hundreds of times before, but hard headed people simply dont get it. You have to look past the single unit and use the army as a whole....seraphim do not fit within a sound Sisters of Battle Battle plan. But I'm done preaching to the deaf....go ahead and ignore me. I've made my mark with sisters...and I've yet to be surpassed in major tournement. I'm telling you that Seraphim are terrible. Throw that info out if you like....but my tournement record (and not just at Adepticon but other tournements as well) says you're wrong.

Easy Tiger, Easy.

 

As it is I'd be inclined to agree with the factual elements of your post regarding competative SoB units and Seraphim. In 4th ed they were the mainstay of my roster and it wasn't unusual for me to put down 3 8-10 girls squads on the table....but that was 4th ed and in 5th the focus has changed considerably.

 

For me there's one major consideration when I build a list now and that is 'how many battle sisters will an option cost and will it perform better?' At the moment Seraphim don't do the job. Sure they've gained DS and they are even more effective with H&R but they are a non scoring unit where every girl is the equivalent of 2 standard sisters. I'd have to say the same goes for Rhino's as well but if they work for you then all the more power to ya.

 

Over the past few months I've been stripping away the 'toys' out of my roster and now the backbone of my list is 4 X 14 strong squads of sisters with a VSS+eviscerator (for the ironclads out there), 2 squads with meltas, 2 with flamer & Hvy flamer and 3 exorcists to provide the necessary long range support. I'm even doing away with expensive, geared up HQ's and instead looking towards a canoness with retinue with as many flamers as the points and loadout will allow in an immolator....and I've got to say that I have never had as much success as I'm having now.

 

Without all of the bells and whistles in the list it leaves to concentrate on what really wins the game which is making the right decision at the right time. Sisters rely on being able to make the most of their faith, so why leave it to chance? 11+ in a squad means you're gonna make that essential faith roll (and in a big squad that means DG) most of the time and you'll absolutely rain fire down on a unit when combining that with flamers. Those 6's mean no armour save, no FnP and combined with a template no cover save either.

 

Deadshane's also right when it comes to looking at units in isolation of everything else. A good list fits together like a jigsaw where each piece links in with the next. So that means understanding how you want each unit to support the next.

 

Ultimately you'll only find this out by actually getting stuck in to find what your playstyle is. There are a lot of people who'll say this is good and that isn't but what they are actually saying is 'this works for me'.

 

My list works for me, I've developed my playstyle to the point where tricks and toy's don't do it for me anymore, but I have been into the hobby for a long, long time and that might just be my maturity kicking in (unlikely!) or the fact I've tried everything else and it doesn't work for me.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think what it boils down to, as others have said earlier, is this:

 

Every tool is incredibly useful and the right tool for the job, given the proper job at the proper time at the proper place.

 

Even in modern warfare, sometimes a knife is the right tool for the job, sometimes a pistol, sometimes an assault rifle, sometimes a tank. Is one better than the other? Depends on what you're trying to do.

 

Seraphim are one tool available to a general, as are Dominions, as are Celestians. It depends on the general in question, how they play and think, what their overall plan and strategy are. To me, Seraphim are invaluable. I'm leaning more and more towards having two units of them, one with two hand flamer Seraphim, one with a plasma pistol VSS and two inferno pistol Seraphim. Just because it works for me doesn't say Anything as to if it will work for everyone! Death Cult Assassins and a close combat Inquisitor Lady with retinue work for me too... and those are definately not common choices.

 

I can definately see the worth to Immolator spamming and having hordes of basic infantry. If it's dead, it can't score. This would be an army based around destroying anything opposite it on the table. It would be a hideously effective army in the right hands with the proper thinking general. Some people can't play that way though, it's not their style. I always advise everyone to find what works for them, because if you play to your style with the units that work for you and play your game, no one can touch you.

 

The hard part is having enough experience to learn yourself.

[Toogeloo]

Personally, I like to arm them with flamer/heavy flamer. Make them faithful with the vet upgrade. Do NOT waste points on equipping the Vet for HtH...a better choice in this unit is a combi-melta in case the unit NEEDS to pop a tank. Two faithful flamer templates and a bunch of girls firing bolters. Good unit that.

I disagree with this setup for the Vet. You roll a one or a two and you lost your one use Melta. I much prefer a Combi-Flamer on my vet along with the Regular Flamer and Heavy Flamer. With the 5 extra Points you give the Vet Meltabombs. This allows you to deal with Walkers and Land Raiders simply through assault and costs the same as the Combi-Melta setup. Hand of the Emperor can deal with other tanks just fine.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

SoB do have many excellent unit choices, but ultimately you have to select the ones that suit your playstyle and work for you. Just because they don't or you dismiss them out of hand doesn't necessarily make them worthless; they just aren't suitable for your army.

 

The strongest armies I see (well, from the non-broken army lists :P Chaos and Eldar notwithstanding) generally have a theme and stick to it. They don't just rely on spamming a single unit (even in 5th edition spamming Troops in a 'by the numbers' game is still stupid), and they often have 'fleshed out' units with specific roles and wargear, that work together and compliment eachother. Another interesting phenomenon is that the strongest armies are not always 100% efficient; I (like I think just about everyone who plays 40k) write armies according to the MeQ metagame, and yet against different armies (like Tau, Tyranids, Orks even) it ends up being woeful. The people who know their Codex but still take stuff for theme and coolness factor often do pretty well regardless. All this is very much up the judgement of the individual player.

 

All this said and done, there are still useless units in this game (many in fact), and equally mediocre weapons and equipment. This kinda stuff isn't a case of 'well, it won't kill me if I take this' or 'I could build this to be slightly more efficient, but I've already painted them all up, so meh'. There are things in 40k which are point-blank useless (in every Codex), and their inclusion in your army will eat up points/Force Org slots that can cost you games. It doesn't matter what you try, there are some things which got introduced to the army list and were worthless from Day 1, or they've been superseded entirely by changes to the army and the meta-game.

I disagree with this setup for the Vet. You roll a one or a two and you lost your one use Melta. I much prefer a Combi-Flamer on my vet along with the Regular Flamer and Heavy Flamer. With the 5 extra Points you give the Vet Meltabombs. This allows you to deal with Walkers and Land Raiders simply through assault and costs the same as the Combi-Melta setup. Hand of the Emperor can deal with other tanks just fine.

 

I agree with you that the combi-melta is a bad idea, but the meltabombs idea is even worse. You'll hit walkers on 6's in all cases, and I'd be amazed if you managed to catch any tank with a battle sister squad in close-combat. 'Hand of the Emperor' is useless against most walkers (except maybe a Sentinel), still pretty marginal against rear armour in close-combat (5+ to do anything, and it's not like the squad churns out a big pile of attacks to begin with), and a meltagun is better than any of this. A meltagun can potentially fire every turn, costs less than the one-shot version of the VSS (and is only 5pts more than meltabombs) and always hits on a 3+.

 

I love flamer templates too, but a heavy flamer is usually going to be sufficient, unless you're shooting Terminators or something (in which case you should really be using a Canoness to chop them up or an Exorcists to shell them to death). I think it's a fair trade to take a meltagun as the 2nd special weapon, considering how vulnerable the unit is to walkers and tanks in general. Squad-based anti-tank is essential to preventing a situation where you opponent disables your anti-tank specialists then sends in a mechanised assault (or Iron-Clad spam).

[Toogeloo]

I agree with you that the combi-melta is a bad idea, but the meltabombs idea is even worse. You'll hit walkers on 6's in all cases, and I'd be amazed if you managed to catch any tank with a battle sister squad in close-combat. 'Hand of the Emperor' is useless against most walkers (except maybe a Sentinel), still pretty marginal against rear armour in close-combat (5+ to do anything, and it's not like the squad churns out a big pile of attacks to begin with), and a meltagun is better than any of this. A meltagun can potentially fire every turn, costs less than the one-shot version of the VSS (and is only 5pts more than meltabombs) and always hits on a 3+.

I wasnt advocating the use of Meltabombs, I was just stating that instead of spending 15 points on a combi-melta, you could get a Combi-flamer and meltabombs for the same price. I do believe that points spent on Meltabombs are largely wasted, however they should not be disregarded completely. If for some reason you do end up in CC with a Walker and your Sisters of Battle, you can kiss the squad goodbye because they have nothing to stand against it. However, Meltabombs do at least provide a possible saving grace even if it is minimal.

 

 

That being said, Walkers are usually the primary targets of my Exorcists so that I may avoid this situation all together :P. I much prefer the triple Flamer threat myself and use Exorcists and Inferno Pistols for tank busting, though I will switch out a couple Flamers for Meltaguns if I know I am going to be fighting more mechanized armies than footslog or horde.

[ArmouredWing]

I agree with you that the combi-melta is a bad idea, but the meltabombs idea is even worse. You'll hit walkers on 6's in all cases, and I'd be amazed if you managed to catch any tank with a battle sister squad in close-combat. 'Hand of the Emperor' is useless against most walkers (except maybe a Sentinel), still pretty marginal against rear armour in close-combat (5+ to do anything, and it's not like the squad churns out a big pile of attacks to begin with), and a meltagun is better than any of this. A meltagun can potentially fire every turn, costs less than the one-shot version of the VSS (and is only 5pts more than meltabombs) and always hits on a 3+.

True but you've still got the problem with being locked in CC by a dread and not being able to get out. A meltagun is only of any use as long as it can fire and once the assault phase has started you've lost that opportunity.

I thought about it long and hard, prior to C:SM redux my answer was to kit out a couple of units with kraks and try to have them float to deal with potential threats but now even kraks are useless against ironclads. The only way to go in my opinion it to have a vet with an eviscerator loadout. By doing this you're principally going with the powerfist loadout that a lot of marine players adopt. The added consideration of being able to cause instant death in CC is an added factor (as 2 lictors found out over the weekend when they charged one of my battle sister squads).

I love flamer templates too, but a heavy flamer is usually going to be sufficient, unless you're shooting Terminators or something (in which case you should really be using a Canoness to chop them up or an Exorcists to shell them to death). I think it's a fair trade to take a meltagun as the 2nd special weapon, considering how vulnerable the unit is to walkers and tanks in general. Squad-based anti-tank is essential to preventing a situation where you opponent disables your anti-tank specialists then sends in a mechanised assault (or Iron-Clad spam).

This i do disagree with. I used to believe that the best way to field a unit was to make it multi tasking, equipped to deal with allcomers. Flamer templates are SOOOOO good now BECAUSE of the ability to stack them up. Having one in a unit just doesn't cut it. I'm going to break with tradition here a little and agree with one of mellisia's statements from her tactica. Sisters need to smite a foe absolutely and leave no-one at the end of their shooting phase. Because of our proximity when we do open fire we need to be able to ensure that there's going to be no-one left to assault us or if there is they are so weakened that the unit can mop up the stragglers in the opponents assault phase. Multiple temeplates go a hell of a long way to ensuring this does happpen and is one of the best tactics in the SoB arsenal.

[Melissia]

That's actually why I reccomend the F+HF+CM build... you're not relying on your Battle Sisters for anti-tank in the first place. You just have the combimelta there just in case-- your primary anti-tank is going to be, more likely than not, either Exorcists, Seraphim, or a combination of both.

 

 

 

edit: by the Emperor's rotting buttocks, this post had a lot of typos...

[ArmouredWing]

That's actually why I reccomend the F+HF+CM build... you're not relying on your Battle Sisters for anti-tank in the first place. You just have the combimelta there just in case-- your primary anti-tank is going to be, more likely than not, either Exorcists, Seraphim, or a combination of both.

...but a combi melta in a squad of flamers is still only a one shot weapon which has got a 1/3 chance of missing. To me those odds aren't good enough and aren't an effective expendature of points. Also it doesn't solve the problem of getting caught, locked and destroyed in CC. Just because you aren't relying on the squad for anti tank doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for that eventuality and a good opponent will identify the weakness of your units and attempt to exploit them to their advantage.

 

If all you want to do is tarpit your opponents dreads without hope of destroying them then knock yourself out, but there is a very viable piece of wargear available which can and will pull you out of the brown stuff.

[Melissia]

The Eviscerator isn't much better against dreads, and meltabombs aren't that much better either. Here's my attempt to mathhammer it out:

 

Combimelta: 15 pts, also functions as a bolter

1 shot taken at 6", 66% chance of hitting, 83% chance of penetrating, 50% chance of destroying.

Roughly 27.3% chance to destoy AV12 with its one shot

 

Eviscerator: Two-handed, 25 pts

Assault weapon, 2 attacks at initiative 1, 50% chance of hitting, 59% chance of penetrating, 33% chance of destroying.

Roughly 17.7% chance to destroy AV12 in one phase of assaulting

 

Meltabomb: 5 pts, doesn't take up a weapon slot

Assault weapon, 1 attack at initiative 3, 50% chance of hitting, 83% chance of penetrating, 33% chance of destroying.

Roughly 13.6% chance to destroy AV12 in one phase of assaulting

 

 

Either way, with eviscerator and/or meltabombs, you're ensuring that your squad WILL take unsaveable wounds (most walkers have WS4 versus the average Battle Sister VSS' WS3, meaning hit on a 3+, and they typically have DCCWs which are power weapons that wound on a 2+ against T3, an they're also usually above I3 too) whereas the combimelta means that you have a chance of not taking any wounds at all. With the combimelta, there's a chance it'll miss yes, but you aren't relying on it...it's just another option you can use to take down walkers. Walkers SHOULD be one of your Exorcists/Seraphim squad's primary targets in the first place.

[Toogeloo]

I would go with 13.6% chance to destroy for 5 points over 27.3% for 15 points any day considering the rarity that it should happen at. I cannot justify the cost of a Combi-Melta at all. At least with Combi-Flamer, you are guaranteed to hit something, and it is cheaper. There should never be an instance where you are putting alot of eggs in the basket of a 15 point single shot weapon with a 33% miss rate and isn't even guaranteed to destroy anything, but who knows... Sisters are all about faith.

[Melissia]

Actually, the reason I advocate the Combimelta instead is simply because it gives you a chance to not have to enter close combat with a friggin' DREADNAUGHT. So in that sense, the combimelta is far more worth its price than meltabombs if only because if it destroys or immobilizes then it ensures the safety of your squad, while if you assault with a meltabomb you're more than likely sending them to their doom. You'll STILL be wasting points, just that those poitns will be in the form of casualties. Unless your squad has a pair of meltaguns then it is best you don't expect them to take down a dreadnaught in the first place, but just HAVING a combimelta can cause players to pause a bit. While I'm all for taking risks, willingly assaulting a dreadnaught is going to be disastrous regardless of weapons that the Sisters have, and if you wait until it assaults THEM, then you're going to suffer even more casualties more likely than not.

 

Technicly speaking, those calculations only included penetrating hits. Unlike meltabombs, the combimelta can also destroy on a glancing hit, so it has an even better chance of destroying or immobilizing than I put up there.

[jeffersonian000]

1.) How do you effectively use sisters of battle mounted in a rhino?

 

2.) How should you use a celestine squad mounted in a rhino/s,sisters of battle squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a dominion squad/s mounted in a rhino/s, a seraphem squad/s ,and a retributor squad/s in a rhino/s / immolator/s? What would each unit do to use all 5 types of these sisters in unison? How would you use all 5 of these units unmounted?

 

3.) How would you use an exorcist w/ retributers?

 

4.) How would you best use an exorcist, retributers, and penitent engines together?

 

5.) What is the best way to use a rhino?

 

 

I) You use the Rhino as a transport, disembarking the sisters within rapid fire/flamer range, and hopefully, roll well for Divine Guidance. Works best using 2+ squads of sisters, to overwhelm a single target.

 

2) Celestians and Dominions work the same way; however, depending on the number of sisters in a squad, you may or may not be able to use Divine Guidance.

 

3) Exorcists are used either as a mobile gun platform (ie, move 6" and fire), or as a static gun platform in cover. Retributors are almost always static due to not being able to move and fire their heavy weapons. Also, Retributors cannot buy a Rhino as a squad transport, which limits their effect in a mobile army.

 

4) Most people do not use Penitent Engines outside of Apocalypse or City of Death; all you can do with them is point them at the nearest enemy and pray they arrive in close combat intact. Retributors can provide covering fire if line of sight permits, while Exorcists can be use to take out big things if line of sight permits.

 

5) If mobile, use a Rhino as a transport and to block line of sight to other units in your army. If immobile, use it is blocking terrain.

 

SJ

[Melissia]

THey can't buy a rhino, but they can get an immolator. Either a flame immolator that drops them off and then goes off to set things on fire, or a heavy bolter immolator that stays near them.

[ArmouredWing]

Actually, the reason I advocate the Combimelta instead is simply because it gives you a chance to not have to enter close combat with a friggin' DREADNAUGHT. So in that sense, the combimelta is far more worth its price than meltabombs if only because if it destroys or immobilizes then it ensures the safety of your squad, while if you assault with a meltabomb you're more than likely sending them to their doom. You'll STILL be wasting points, just that those poitns will be in the form of casualties. Unless your squad has a pair of meltaguns then it is best you don't expect them to take down a dreadnaught in the first place, but just HAVING a combimelta can cause players to pause a bit. While I'm all for taking risks, willingly assaulting a dreadnaught is going to be disastrous regardless of weapons that the Sisters have, and if you wait until it assaults THEM, then you're going to suffer even more casualties more likely than not.

 

Technicly speaking, those calculations only included penetrating hits. Unlike meltabombs, the combimelta can also destroy on a glancing hit, so it has an even better chance of destroying or immobilizing than I put up there.

I'm not one for math hammer, I look at the rolls and take a rough guestimate on what my chances are but I do know that the more dice you throw the better the chance of succeeding. It kinda stands to reason although there's nothing to say that you'll never roll all one as much as you'll never roll all 6's.

 

However I'm curious with your calculations for the combi melta. You see you've got 1 percentage to hit, which is fine, but you've only got 1 percentage to penetrate where you need 2, 1 for up to 6" and then one for over 6".

Either way part of the problem is with this range. You've got to get close to get the best out of melta weapons, assault range close, and if you don't do the business there and then an immobilise or better, your squad is gonna get the crap kicked out of them next turn. People will comfortasble ride the odds with a one shot melta, an eviscerator with 2 attacks per turn and potentially S8 is another ball game altogether.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Guys seriously, you're debating between;

 

Meltabombs: Yay, it'll blow up most vehicles in close-combat no problems. Oh wait, first I have to reach close-combat (so unless it's a walker, thats not happening, at least not against smart opponents). Secondly, walkers get hit on 6's with grenades, so I have precisely 16.6% chance of just hitting the target. Never mind the possibility of stuffing up the penetration dice (I do this with melta weapons a lot, especially against heavy armour). On the plus side, I can use it every turn of close-combat, and with 'Martyr' the squad can hold the big mean Dreadnought still until I finally latch a charge onto it.

 

Combi-melta; Yay, it kills armour without having to enter combat. Oh, it's only one shot and costs MORE than the squad weapon, which can fire every turn. Why am I taking this again? Oh right, so I can have a 2nd flamer, and thus make the squad totally unable to deal with a changing battlefield (ie enemy assault walkers, enemy transports, and enemy tanks will all laugh at another flamer). Specialisation works with other armies (because they have fantastic specialists to fufill each role, and they work on such synergy) ; in Imperial armies multi-tasking is required. Get a Brazier on the VSS if you're that keen on getting more burnyness; in my experience flamers get fired about 1-2 times a game, so it's one-shot nature isn't as big a problem (cos it can't miss). With squad anti-tank though, you don't wanna melt a transport and then find yourself having to take out a Vindicator before it destroys you. A combi-melta is only going to help you once, and it costs more.

 

Eviscerator; Yay, I get several attacks (2 normal, 3 on the charge) and it has other uses too (ignores armour saves and wounds most infantry on 2+, which is always handy). Against walkers (most likely case of being in combat with a vehicle), I hit on 4+ (no walker has WS6+). On the other hand, it's much more expensive than either of the other two options (5 times more than meltabombs, nearly twice as much as the combi-melta), and across several squads it quickly adds up.

 

 

Meltagun sits between meltabombs and combi-melta in price. It can fire every turn (at the oppertunity cost of a 2nd flamer), doesn't require the unit to be in close-combat (which two of the other options do, thus taking all but walkers out of the picture). It's clearly the superior anti-tank option. Why would you not take it? If you desperately want a 2nd flamer template (when you eventually get in range of something, cos you'll be driving to the enemy for a couple of turns at least), take the Brazier (functions exactly like a combi-flamer, is cheaper and still allows you to buy the eviscerator if you wish). I personally feel the heavy flamer+rapid-fire is going to suffice in most circumstances, but the Brazier is there if you need more burnyness.

 

The eviscerator and meltabombs can be excellent equipment on Seraphim, because their speed (and ability to Deepstrike) allow them to catch non-walkers (the idea being to immobilise the enemy with their inferno pistols, plus the bolt pistols if they can get shots on an AV10 facing). Against walkers, they can have meltabombs on every model (not just the VSS), so their odds of attaching onto it improve (although even with the slight reduction in price, the inferno-pistol upgrade is still probably a better option).

[ArmouredWing]

I'd have to say I think it's a debate worth having.

 

When it comes to squad equipment it is a matter of choice but I can't get away from the fact that for me the eviscerator really is the weapon of choice.

 

Now whether you believe in specialisation of your troops or not I've not seen any comments here that say you can disregard enemy armour altogether. That said we should also be aware that armour isn't going to be in every list and when that's the case no matter how attractive meltabombs and krak grenades may be you're wasting your points. Better to face a HT with an eviscerator than a meltabomb (the 2 instant killed lictors from the weekend will testify to that).

 

It's fairly easy to create lists with a specific enemy in mind but face anything else you'll find that some points are better spent elsewhere. I like to put together 1 list to play them all and at the moment I'm not doing too badly.

[Melissia]

You find the Eviscerator to be the weapon of choice, and I find the eviscerator to be pretty much a waste of points in most games when I'm trying to avoid my Sisters being in melee combat to begin with. The combimelta allows the squad an extra two shots at rapid fire range because it's also a bolter. Yes, it's one-shot, but you're not going to want to rely on it in the first place as I said... it's just another opportunity-- if it hits and immobilizes/destroys, then you don't have to fire your exorcists at that target. If it missses then your exorcists have the go to fire.