Questions about combinations of WH

[ArmouredWing]

You find the Eviscerator to be the weapon of choice, and I find the eviscerator to be pretty much a waste of points in most games when I'm trying to avoid my Sisters being in melee combat to begin with. The combimelta allows the squad an extra two shots at rapid fire range because it's also a bolter. Yes, it's one-shot, but you're not going to want to rely on it in the first place as I said... it's just another opportunity-- if it hits and immobilizes/destroys, then you don't have to fire your exorcists at that target. If it missses then your exorcists have the go to fire.

I've got to say that I'm intrigued by what roster you run for all comers or what you would run for a 'tournie' style list at 1500pts. You see I don't hear or see an option to fall back on if things don't go according to plan as often they don't. Exorcists are key players on the table but it's unlikely that a seasoned opponent will let them blaze away turn in, turn out because they really are that much of a threat. I don't bank on my exorcists making past turn 3, what with the abundance of railguns, lascannons & missile launchers out there. with that being the case their targets are specific and to the exclusion of all else untill they've done the job assigned. As tempting as it is to take pot shots across the table it's an inefficient waste of the best heavy support we've got until it's done what it's there for.

The next thing is to look at the tactics that are needed to be employed to achieve success in the mission. Either KP or objective based missions are goig to require some movement forward to attempt capture of the objective or achieve optimal range. This is after all part of the principle of the 'fire' tactica, push your advantage, get into that all important 12" range and rain shots on your opponent either to eliminate or clear the objective prior to moving in. The problem with his, as I've pointed out before, is that this leaves sisters extremely vulnerable. A good opponent will have support on station in an attempt to counter this and with drop pods now widely available it isn't unusual to have squads or dreads suddenly appear within that close range without being able to locate and target prior to their arrival. If it's an arrival of vanguard on target then you can kiss that rapid fire range goodbye.

I guess that I plan for my sisters to face most eventualities with the most cost effective use of points. If they're hunting objectives they need to be able to survive the journey to the objective point (for me thats large footslogging squads that do a lot of running), they need long range support to hit targets from turn 1 and also draw fire away from the scoring troops (exorcists) and I need to know that although I currently specialise my squads, 2 melta & 2 flame, they can comfortably take on other threats because they've got a good, sound loadout.

Truth is it has taken a long, long time and a lot of losses to get to the list I'm now using, the eviscerator was the final change in that list due to drop podding ironclads getting to me before I could knock them out. I know that won't happen again.

[Melissia]

I don't disagree with moving forward, inf act I support it rather strongly. Perhaps you have not actually read very well through my "Way of the Flame Warrior" tactica? If you have no meltaguns, and all your anti-tank is destroyed, then quite frankly you're screwed anyway against a walker-heavy army. An Eviscerator will still have a lower chance of actually saving you, because it has such a low chance of disabling the unit that you're liable to get stuck in combat for long enough that your enemy scores a victory by the mere fact that your squad wasn't able to fire on a different target.

 

I subscribe to the school of thought, at least in regards to Sisters, that the best way to do things is to kill the enemy as quickly as possible-- in the shooting phase being the most preferable place to do this. Simply put-- shoot the enemy and kill them, and they can't shoot back. Assault the enemy, and they'll kill some of your people before you kill them. This is especially true for single models such as vehicles and MCs, which also tend to be highly capable anyway.

 

The combimelta is a one-shot weapon and thus a bit of a risk. But ti's a risk I'm willing to take.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Now whether you believe in specialisation of your troops or not I've not seen any comments here that say you can disregard enemy armour altogether. That said we should also be aware that armour isn't going to be in every list and when that's the case no matter how attractive meltabombs and krak grenades may be you're wasting your points. Better to face a HT with an eviscerator than a meltabomb (the 2 instant killed lictors from the weekend will testify to that).

 

Instant-killed? They're T4...anyway, I'm sure you chainsawed their faces off in any case . In a more general-purpose 'jamming a giant chainsword in it' role, the evsicerator is useful. However, I personally think it's too expensive to take on SoB squads. On Seraphim and Canonesses, it works though.

 

The problem with grenades is that unless every member of the unit has them, you're simply relying far too much on one model latching one grenade onto the target. You can forget doing that against walkers (unless you're in combat Turn 1 with it and tarpit it for another 5 turns). Against non-walkers, it's nice to attach to rear armour (meltabombs vs AV10 is kinda OP, and krak will damage AV10 reliably too), but they can always just drive away before you reach assault range. Not to mention Landraiders (which are getting more popular in Marine armies, especially a Chronus-driven Crusader).

 

The combimelta allows the squad an extra two shots at rapid fire range because it's also a bolter. Yes, it's one-shot, but you're not going to want to rely on it in the first place as I said... it's just another opportunity-- if it hits and immobilizes/destroys, then you don't have to fire your exorcists at that target. If it missses then your exorcists have the go to fire.

 

Melissa, this isn't a strong argument. The Exorcists are an external element, they can be disabled/destroyed. Also, squad-based anti-tank is what kills mechanised armies. Alone, your Exorcists will be overtaxed by a mechanised force; with support from the mechanised SoB (ie they each pick an enemy transport/tank/walker, drive over and blast it with a meltagun from the top hatch, or even combine fire on dangerous targets), the Exorcists can switch fire to longer-range targets (like his heavy tanks or enemy heavy infantry). And, this isn't a one-turn deal either (which is what combi-meltas are) ; you can continue driving around harassing his vehicles all game with the squad meltaguns.

Truth is it has taken a long, long time and a lot of losses to get to the list I'm now using, the eviscerator was the final change in that list due to drop podding ironclads getting to me before I could knock them out. I know that won't happen again.

 

If Iron-clad spam is the meta-game, I'd recommend getting a Malleus Inquisitor in Elite with some Mystics. He'll quickly learn the error of his ways, when Mystic-guided Exorcists rain death into him as he lands (you get to choose between the drop pod or the Dreadnought).

[ArmouredWing]

Darius, here's the maths for the lictors - T4 Vs S8(S3x2 (VSS+Eviscerator)+2(HotE)) = instant death. After being assaulted by 2 my squad soaked & saved the inflicted wounds enabling my to VSS to achieve 2 hits and then inflict 2 wounds. As for expense, well like I said, it's doing it for me at the moment although this does make it a little less certain against the likes of Telion. It is swings and roundabouts but I do very much like the versatility it gives my squads and their kill tally has only improved with this addition.

If you have no meltaguns, and all your anti-tank is destroyed, then quite frankly you're screwed anyway against a walker-heavy army. An Eviscerator will still have a lower chance of actually saving you, because it has such a low chance of disabling the unit that you're liable to get stuck in combat for long enough that your enemy scores a victory by the mere fact that your squad wasn't able to fire on a different target.

I've never actually said that I don't run meltaguns, I run my 4 troop squads 2 melta, 2 flamer but (and here's the strange thing) my melta fire has never been reliable. Really, I'm not kidding, it's been a bit of a laughing point in my gaming group over the number of 1's & 2's that I roll on my meltaguns. However, I have a plan B to fall back on. Yes it's not as sure as 'plan A', but if it was it wouldn't be plan B would it? The thing is you're saying if all of your ranged weapons are lost your expecting to lose. Fail to plan, plan to fail so to speak. To put it another way 100pts across 4 units isn't too high a price to pay to keep them in the fight when all else fails (not for me anyway).

 

As for Darius' suggestion of fielding a malleus inquisitor? Mate, you're in the wrong thread. We're talking SoB and I wouldn't want to pollute my sisters with daemon hunters. I believe the sisters have the ability to compete on their own and I'd have to say my current roster has proven itself to be able to do that for me.

[number6]

Although I've only ever run a limited number of sisters in my DH lists -- just Seraphim and sometimes a jump Canoness to go along with them -- I am totally sold on Eviscerators. Yes, they are pricey, and yes they do cost you one melee attack because they're two-handed, but I cannot count the number of times those Eviscerators have made all the difference. They've been locked with chaos dreads and defilers and come out on top. The last game in which I employed them they took out one 5-man Chaos termie unit and then all but 1 of a 2nd termie unit before dying. True, inferno pistols helped but the Eviscerators did even more damage than the pistols. (That's on just either 1 or 3 faith points, mind you!) I can't imagine not using Eviscerators, they're just too versatile and too powerful to pass up, IMHO.

[boreas]

Ditto here! My main opponents, mind you, where Nids and guards. I cannot count the number of time I soaked the wounds from a Carnifex only to whittle it down with my VSS w/eviscerator. Also, getting inside 3" of a tank with my IF is not always easy, so putting 2 TL-hand flamers on my seraphims instead comes 16 pts cheaper. Then add the Eviscerator, it now 9 pts more expensive. And I always hit on the rear (which is not always the case with IF). Of course, I could add melta bombs and give my VSS a PW and get 2 TL-HF. But then that's 40 points more on an already expensive unit...

 

Phil

[Melissia]

Eviscerators on a Seraphim squad I certainly can get behind, but I was referring to using them on normal Battle Sisters squads. Especially since you'll usually have so many of them.

[ArmouredWing]

Eviscerators on a Seraphim squad I certainly can get behind, but I was referring to using them on normal Battle Sisters squads. Especially since you'll usually have so many of them.

Ok, so I can understand your game a bit better show us a list built to deal with all comers, I'm genuinely interested, because as I've said to judge the effectiveness of a unit you really do need to see the whole picture, take in the whole strategy.

[boreas]

Eviscerators on a Seraphim squad I certainly can get behind, but I was referring to using them on normal Battle Sisters squads. Especially since you'll usually have so many of them.

 

I usually won't use them on all sisters squads. As you say, it's too costly. Usually, Seraphims and/or dominions plus Canonesses will have them. Regular battle sisters' VSS might all have them vs nids.

 

Phil

[Melissia]

I'll post a list sometime today or tomorrow, mebbe. I'm dealing with a little nephew brat right now. Ugh.

[Melissia]

Since you asked.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=157120

 

Just a couple of the 1500 lists I've come up with.

[ArmouredWing]

Since you asked.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=157120

 

Just a couple of the 1500 lists I've come up with.

OK, a couple of interesting lists and in both cases I've rostered and played very similar in the past but also both lists demonstrate weaknesses.

Both lists lack a generl flexibility needed to deal with the various opponents you're likely to meet. The exorcist list suffers considerably from having nothing in the standard squads to stand up to the possibility of dealing with potential threats on an objective or against vehicles/dreads. The HQ lacks essential protection in the form of smoke on the immolator, this unit also presents a very attractive target to an opponent for a couple of reasons. 1 - In a KP game it represents a very valuable 3 KP unit which could be whittled down in very little time before they get anywhere near your opponents lines & 2 - this unit makes up a fifth of your points and is geared to multitask. This being the case the sooner it's eliminated the bigger the advantage that your opponent will acheive.

The other thing to consider is in dawn of war deployment you're going to lose an extremely valuable turn of fire on your opponents lines because nothing you've got will be able to see anything to fire at. 1 searchlight would be beneficial (you've got 1 pt left over), however, a searchight on everything possible is even better.

The last thing with your first list has got to be the sheer number of KP's that you are presenting to your opponent. 14 KP's, 5 of which are fairly easy hits is a pretty impressive amount by anyone's standards.

 

The second list is very much like the one I used to run in 4th ed. Fast moving with a good number of bodies on the table but I always found that no matter how fast i moved it was never quick enough. The problem is with the lack of range with meltaguns and inferno pistols. In the case of the troops you've got an effective anti armour of 24" and in the case of the seraphim it's 18". For me it's not enough range as the biggest problem is that you have to be within assault range to be effective and worse still is that you've got to be able to get past your opponents front lines to be able to get to the longer ranged armour on their side of the table. DS does mitigate against this to a certain extent but it's less than reliable and places the seraphim units in a very open position before they can get to their target.

 

If you do well with these lists then they obviously suit your style but for me they don't have the versatility to switch to a different plan if something does go wrong in the grand scheme of things.

[Melissia]

And your list probably has a ton of flaws I can point out, which don't mesh with how I want to play the Sisters as well.

 

I like to take risks.

[ArmouredWing]

And your list probably has a ton of flaws I can point out, which don't mesh with how I want to play the Sisters as well.

I like to take risks.

Well in the spirit of sharing here's my list from last weekend, bearing in mind that I was facing to contrasting forces in the form of Nids and Tau.

 

HQ

Canoness

BoSL

Combi Flamer

Pow Weapon (soaking up 10 pts left over after I'd put my list together)

 

Retinue - Celestians X5

Vet+ Combi flamer

Hvy Flamer

Flamer

 

Immolator+ Searchlight & Smoke

 

Troops

Battle Sisters X14

Vet+ BoSL & Eviscerator

Meltagun X2

(2 Squads)

 

Battle Sisters X14

Vet+ BoSL & Eviscerator

Hvy Flamer

Flamer

(2 Squads)

 

Heavy Support

Exorcist+ Searchlight (X3)

 

FP's - 7. KP's - 10.

 

And thats it. I'll admit myself it's not the most exciting of lists but it performs at all levels and my opponents have all said that this list has become the one they look to test their lists against. The list has what I need to do the job. In the first couple of game turns the troops can either move out to capture objectives, move out to present a gunline to incoming units or hold ground/move back ensuring a hail of fire to incoming fast units or horde. During this time the exorcists combine fire on key enemy units that are beyond the troops range of fire.

The HQ is held in reserve to deploy later in the game to act as a fast response unit which can put 4 templates out in a single turn to cripple a key threat before it can get to an objective to reinforce the opponents units.

 

And that's about all I can say without giving too much of my 'schemes' away to my regular opponents who often frequent these parts but if I had to pick one list to take on all comers this is the one at the moment. It's got everything that I want from a list, reliability, endurance, weight of fire and to a certain extent not too much in the way of gadgets and gizmos that an be forgotten in the heat of battle but I've got enough to ensure that most eventuallities can be faced and dealt with.

 

Take it apart by all means, I'd love to hear some reasoned critisism.

[Melissia]

This isn't the place for it (army lists belong, not surprisingly, in the army list forum, which is why I posted mine there, not here).

[ArmouredWing]

I don't believe that this is a perfect list because a perfect list doesn't exist (although 4th ed iron warriors had to be pretty close to it). Some units may be better than others in certain situations but if you want to perform at all levels then there can be no room for emotion when spending your points, equally you still need to ensure that your roster will have everything it needs to perform it's duties when on the table top. I would love the opportunity to put my roster on the table against either that you've posted not just to see if my current line up stands up to the fairly generic Mech based SoB lists but to pit myself against against your very obvious expertise.

 

I want to prove that sisters are very much a force, not to be reckoned with, but to be feared. To do that it means cutting away the useless trinkets and vaguely interesting gadgets to give them what they need, not what I want. Sisters are never going to be the tournie equivalent of the iron warriors and by virtue of that fact those of us who are playing them are taking a risk, but if you play 40K there has to be an element of looking for a victory even if it isn't an all consuming desire to win at all costs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius, here's the maths for the lictors - T4 Vs S8(S3x2 (VSS+Eviscerator)+2(HotE)) = instant death. After being assaulted by 2 my squad soaked & saved the inflicted wounds enabling my to VSS to achieve 2 hits and then inflict 2 wounds. As for expense, well like I said, it's doing it for me at the moment although this does make it a little less certain against the likes of Telion. It is swings and roundabouts but I do very much like the versatility it gives my squads and their kill tally has only improved with this addition.

 

Ah true...I just assumed Lictors were Synapse creatures. Eviscerators are by no means a bad weapon (they're quite versatile, being essentially a chainfist), but that point expenditure quickly adds up when you deck out every VSS with one. That said, it's nice to get out of combat with walkers etc without needing support, and nobody likes powerfists (even the S6 basic version, before Faith). If you run a foot-slogging list, evsicerators for sure. In a mechanised list however, you kinda need the points for Rhinos.

 

I've never actually said that I don't run meltaguns, I run my 4 troop squads 2 melta, 2 flamer but (and here's the strange thing) my melta fire has never been reliable. Really, I'm not kidding, it's been a bit of a laughing point in my gaming group over the number of 1's & 2's that I roll on my meltaguns. However, I have a plan B to fall back on. Yes it's not as sure as 'plan A', but if it was it wouldn't be plan B would it? The thing is you're saying if all of your ranged weapons are lost your expecting to lose. Fail to plan, plan to fail so to speak. To put it another way 100pts across 4 units isn't too high a price to pay to keep them in the fight when all else fails (not for me anyway).

 

Get better dice ;) . Redundancy is a good idea, but I think you could really use those points elsewhere. Like, two Rhinos to get those melta squads hunting armour, with the additional bonus of shielding your foot-slogging flamer units so they reach the objectives/enemy lines intact. It's up to you, but mobility is very important in 5th edition, and vehicles have only gotten tougher (not to mention the WH codex smoke launchers are gold).

As for Darius' suggestion of fielding a malleus inquisitor? Mate, you're in the wrong thread. We're talking SoB and I wouldn't want to pollute my sisters with daemon hunters. I believe the sisters have the ability to compete on their own and I'd have to say my current roster has proven itself to be able to do that for me.

 

Pollute? :rolleyes: I've gotten this hostility before from other WH players about taking Malleus allies. I don't get it; if a unit works well against a certain army type (Iron-clad spam, or indeed any Deep-striking force), why wouldn't you take it? If it's fluff thats holding you back, count him as a sanctioned psyker or Astropath.

I didn't say you're army is going to totally fail against Iron-clad spam, I just suggested you take some allied Mystics to help out. It's cheap, only takes up one of your under-used Elite slots, and there's nothing he can do to counter it (unless he drops an Orbital Strike on them or something). If you have such terrible luck with your meltaguns (which is your main justification for squad eviscerators), you'll need all the 'free' shots you can get against Iron-Clads.

 

I want to prove that sisters are very much a force, not to be reckoned with, but to be feared. To do that it means cutting away the useless trinkets and vaguely interesting gadgets to give them what they need, not what I want. Sisters are never going to be the tournie equivalent of the iron warriors and by virtue of that fact those of us who are playing them are taking a risk, but if you play 40K there has to be an element of looking for a victory even if it isn't an all consuming desire to win at all costs.

 

Yeah, I very much agree. One of the curses of both the DH's and WH's is each has a giant armoury of very fluffy and unique wargear, and about 90% of it is totally useless. One of the most common mistakes made by newcomers to either army is to start equipping their characters and Inquisitors with all manner of wargear, because they look awesome and sound workable on paper. When you actually think about the character and their equipment, how it interacts with other wargear and their special rules, a lot of the armoury quickly becomes irrelevant.

 

Iron Warriors died when the new Chaos Marine codex came out ;) . I think it would be best to not refer to them. Yes, they were all-powerful and insane in 3rd-4th edition. Nowadays, you have a choice; take the double Lash Prince+mechanised Plague Marines+Oblit spam army, or a balanced Undivided list.

 

I think if more people knew about SoB and what they can do, they would become as popular as Chaos or Orks in the top-tier army stakes. You have the Canoness for eating everything in close-combat (plus her tarpit retinue of Celestians). Your Troops are arguably up there with Chaos Marines and Ork Boyz as cost-effective infantry, and Faith Acts only make them better. Seraphim leave Assault Marines for dead as an assault unit (their own version of Hit and Run, twin-linked flamers and bolt pistols, Faith Acts), and Exorcists perfectly compliment a short-range shooty force with long-range anti-tank/Monstrous Creature firepower. SoB have all the makings of a top-tier army, they're simply not popular due to lack of new models and publicity.

[Melissia]

I definitely agree with that last paragraph, Darius. But then, GW runs on circular logic-- to update something they must be popular, but to be popular they msut be updated.

 

 

Anyway... back on topic..

 

 

I put in combi-meltas because it is a backup plan. Not something I want to rely upon-- that would be my Exorcists or Seraphim-- but something I can use that, if it succeeds, I can target my Exorcist shots elsewhere.

 

 

Really, if I were to balance every single squad for all purposes, I'd probably put them each with a meltagun, but I focus my battle sister squads so that they are excellent infantry killers instead.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I definitely agree with that last paragraph, Darius. But then, GW runs on circular logic-- to update something they must be popular, but to be popular they msut be updated.

 

Yeah, sadly. Oh well, enjoy surprisingly people with SoB. :rolleyes: 'Their Acts of Faith make what AP1 now? 3+ invul saves?'

 

I put in combi-meltas because it is a backup plan. Not something I want to rely upon-- that would be my Exorcists or Seraphim-- but something I can use that, if it succeeds, I can target my Exorcist shots elsewhere.

 

 

Really, if I were to balance every single squad for all purposes, I'd probably put them each with a meltagun, but I focus my battle sister squads so that they are excellent infantry killers instead.

 

You can still do that. For 1pt cheaper, you could trade flamer+combi-melta, you could get meltagun+Brazier. You have to accept only firing the 2nd flamer once, but you'll probably only get one good round of shooting in (due to transit time in the Rhino and enemy counter-assaults), so it's not that big a concession. The Brazier still lets you take an evsicerator on the VSS (something a combi-melta doesn't), or you could add a power weapon (Brazier+power weapon works out as same price as just the eviscerator).

[Melissia]

I'd sooner just get a simple bolt pistol instead (for the extra attack), to save the fifteen points. Still, that is a fair point.