==Me== Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 This just came up today, I think it's a great take on the Daemon book and it's certainly given ==Me== a lot to think about. http://40kdaemonreview.blogspot.com/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Eh, i disagree with him on several points. One that the BT is a bad buy. Are two Heralds probably better? Yes, but if you are gonna go Mono-Khorne you need the Anti-Armour despertly. Nevertheless his opinion on Skarbrand has me thinking...i may try him someday. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Seems a little critical of most units I thought. My take home message was basically "Daemons suck and only a tiny minority of units are worthwhile" I'll have to give it another read or two as alot of work went into it, but that was my first impression. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Agreed You know he seems to have the impression that every army should be perfectly balanced. Some armies are gonna be more concetrated on CC, or Shooting, or large units of cheap troops, or few units of elite troops. If every army was the same it would be boring, I have to say that for a first codex the current Daemon Codex isnt bad. Is it perfect? No, but then again neithier is the C:SM and this is its 5th edition. Where as this is the first try at the Daemon book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 That's usually the case with this sort of thing, separate the wheat from the chaff and work with it. We've got some crap units for sure, Beasts of Nurgle, Nurgle Heralds, Furies, Ku'Gath that you'll want to avoid typically. It's also a random army, you are at the mercy of the dice (and your opponent's deployment and army selection, if he brings Daemonhunters you may as well pack up then) moreso than any other army. I've played Daemons since the book came out and I've had some truly abysmal luck in some cases, cost ==Me== a couple games for sure. After playing it for a while, I know exactly how to beat Daemon armies, and once people get more experience with them it will be the same case. Deploy to restrict the effectiveness of Deep Strike, add a 50 points Mystic Inquisitor, or just go mech and steamroll them. Daemons are doing well now because people don't know how to fight them, but when the figure it out we'll be in trouble. And with an army completely relying on DS, I don't think there is much we can do about it beyond hope for good rolls each game. I have Daemons for ==My== "fun" army, but I can play them competitively too, I'd just rather bring Orks for a serious tourney. And shouldn't we strive for balanced armies? I know it's GW and all, but that shouldn't be a good excuse. I have some disappointments with the Daemon book, Ork book, even the SM book (beyond the stupid mary sue fluff garbage), so expecting better from GW is not that much of a stretch. But I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when they mess stuff up again :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kairos Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Good review! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Got to be honest, from what I've read so far it just seems like a chance for him to moan and complain about the new army, and frankly I get enough of that already. The fact he's so wrong on so many points has convinced me to give up on this review already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Care to put any specifics up Cap? Not trying to pick a fight or anything, I'm just interested in seeing what other players have to say. I think it's spot on, but let's see some discussion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Well for one thing he saud icons are worthless, how can that possibly be true? He also seems to be a bit of a fanboy for the chariots, and as far as I'm concerend the only one really worth taking are the Tzeentch ones, and even then it's often better to use we are legion and hide the herald in a unit of horrors. I didn't read anything past the mounts section. I do agree with him on some things, such as pavane not being all that great (though I don't expect many others to agree with this). I suppose the thing that really annoyed me was the opening, he spent the while thing basically complaining about daemons existence, so yeah that ticked me off a bit. I really am going to have to write up my own review sometime. Edit- In the interest of a good discussion I'll try and read the rest of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 I don't get that much help from icons, but then again I play a fast and shooty army so I don't have much utility for them beyond bring in Flamers to burn people. Icons help considerably if you're running a slower, assault based army, but I don't think they're mandatory in every case. Chariots are solid gold as far as I'm concerned. Slaanesh and Khorne Heralds are underwhelming on foot, Tzeentch ones aren't bad though. A Slaanesh Herald goes from expensive 2 wound Daemonette to super speedy armored Fiend, Khorne Herald becomes a cheaper DP, and the Tzeentch Herald is a super gun platform. I'm not sold on Pavane either, it's useful on the Masque or a DP (maybe), but BS3 and a high cost doesn't scream utility to ==Me==. I think we should collaborate on a B&C Daemon guide, get a some differing views in there, make it a forum project. There's only like 5 of us who post here anyway so the logistics are easy enough ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think we should collaborate on a B&C Daemon guide, get a some differing views in there, make it a forum project. There's only like 5 of us who post here anyway so the logistics are easy enough :P Now that idea I like.... Alright, I've read a bit more of it, and while I still don't agree with a lot of what he says, but he made up for himself a bit with his points on bloodcrushers. One thing that has confused me though is his views on Epidemius, he claims pure-Nurgle works better with two GUOs than with Epi, and that Ku'gath sucks......huh? Epi is the only thing that makes the army viable and Ku'gath lets you kill a few things and enables one or more of your princes to focus a little on tanks while you're still able to get the tally up. And yeah, icons are situational, but over all I feel they are generally needed, his claim was that they are useless. Edit- He thinks bolt on flamers is good :huh: Sorry, but that made me laugh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I was surprised by his lack of love for the Daemon Princes. The take home message I got was that they're just too expensive to use for most situations and use a Soul Grinder instead. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think either the Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder is a totally viable Heavy choice and frankly both can be made effective for around 160 points. If you look at other armies, thats kind of a standard measurement. 2 Obliterators or a Defiler = 150, DP Vindicator = 145, Leman Russ = 150ish (depending on weapons), All versions of Predators average out to around 150 and while I'm not really familiar with Eldar, I'm sure Wraithlords and Fire Prisms would be in that range as well. My point is spending that much on either the Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder doesn't seem like its wasteful, its just the standard. He does point out a good point and one that I've made before and I believe needs consideration here. The need for both Wings and Iron Hide. In most situations, I think an either/or method is better. Wings gets you into combat faster, minimizing the time you're able to be shot at while Iron Hide gives you the extra protection you need against the medium S weapons that will dakka the hell out of you. I just think having both is a bit of a luxury. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1834880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 The Epi thing intrigued ==Me==. 2 GUOs and 3 flying Princes is more than enough to handle most armies, while PBs sit on objectives and Nurglings tie stuff down. It might be a suitable mono Nurgle without SCs. 5 big bad MCs can handle most armies while the PB cheer from the sidelines :) I'll agree that Ku'Gath is made of fail. I'd rather have 2 GUOs any day for 20 extra points. Bolt on Flamers is dumb, must have missed that gem :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 ==Me==, I play daemonzilla remember? Even more than that I play multi-god daemonzilla, troops are vital, 5 MCs will not handle everything, unless your up against a similarly elite army. The idea of daemonzilla is that the big guys take out the biggest threats while the little guys mop up, plaguebearers can't do that, they need the support from the tally. As for Ku'gath, the reason he's good is he gives you the only decent shooting attack a mono-Nurgle army can have, since most of the time your princes will have breath for more killy goodness, but that doesn't have very good range. Normally, he sucks, but in mono-Nurgle he's quite useful, not essential, but useful. As for those nurglings, while a waste in KP missions, in objective missions they can be really helpful. You can use them to mess up your enemy's assaults, just shove one in front of the unit you don't want charged, and they'll have to make a path around it. Also, the little guys can be used to contest objectives late in the game. Besides, Ku'gath has 6 wounds! That's pretty tough to take down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 But 2 GUOs have 8 :) I'm thinking the 5 MCs could handle your typical tourney build (Nob Bikers, Lash and Oblits, etc) or at least you send Nurglings to tie the big stuff down. I'm a big fan of Epi (I love the uber Nurglings), but it's nice to consider not using him every once in a while. Ku'Gath is a KP factory and super expensive, while his template attack is devastating it doesn't justify the cost to ==Me==. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kairos Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Actually ==Me==, GUOs have 5 wounds each, so 2 GUOs is 10 wounds. EDIT: I never realised Soul Grinders had fleet... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 5 MCs just don't the number of attacks needed to handle the enemies army, only nidzilla with it's 7-8 MCs has enough attacks, and Nurgles guys have below average attacks, for MCs anyway, of the greater daemons only the LoC has less attacks, and he has his ranged attacks to make up for it. I'm not saying Epi is the only build, but he is by far the best for mono-Nurgle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I think we should collaborate on a B&C Daemon guide, get a some differing views in there, make it a forum project. Now that's a good idea ;) Though if you could avoid quite the same amount of swearing in the linked review, that would be good :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atendarius Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I think we should collaborate on a B&C Daemon guide, get a some differing views in there, make it a forum project. I'd give my views on things, though I'm not a fulfledged daemons player yet (C'mon I just bought 1500 Points of 'Nids, I need a spending break.) I do proxy occasionaly, and can give my opinions. (Even if my opinions suck, it's still another opinion right? :P) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1835881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'll be glad to help with any kind of Daemon review/tactica/army planning/starter guide etc Did a starter guide for Chaos Marines so I have some experience with it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1836207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Well, since a forum project was ==Me==s idea I'll guess we'll all just have to wait until he sets it up. *hint, hint* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1836230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 What, ==Me==? Doing work? Never B) I'll do some thinking, it looks like enthusiasm is high for such a project so we'll see what sort of format we can go for. Watch this space. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1836556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well come on ==Me==, you've had plenty of time ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1846065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Homer Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Typical Stelek review. To give him credit though, Stelek has some pretty radical army building ideas. If you get a chance go read over his DE army list on Dakka. Retarded strong list. Some of his other ideas are fairly novel as well. That being said I'm new to demons and my impression of the codex is slightly different. I also noticed a lack of Slaanesh/Khorn list and I think its a viable way to go. His ideas about fast, mech armies though are dead on, and that makes Soul Grinders much more valuable the similiarly costed DP's I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1846116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well come on ==Me==, you've had plenty of time ;) :nuke: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156845-daemon-review/#findComment-1846308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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