Daemon review

[Raptor1313]

While Stelek tends to be a bit profane sometimes, I think he's generally got useful tactical advice.

 

I agree with him on the Soul Grinders, though. For 135, what kind of Daemon Prince build can we get? Our DP wings are just bloody expensive...and pure daemonzilla for us, with just 5, isn't necessarily enough to do it.

 

I like Bloodthirsters for lethality, but they ARE just about as durable as the average tyranid monstrous creature, and those aren't immortal.

 

 

I agree with massed chariots as a rule. Take multiples, or none at all, but that's a standard target-saturation/survival strategy.

 

I agree with Tzeentch chariots being better than the Lord of Change. I want to like the big bird, but....for the cost, he just doesn't seem to DO so much. I mean, compare him to a Land Raider, a Bloodthirster....even the basic Land Raider is more than twice the tank-buster, and the average Crusader? It's going to do a whole lot more than the Lord of Change will.

 

I'm honestly not that thrilled with anything in the fast-attack section.

 

I also agree that the bulk of the codex is GREAT at waxing the floor with any troops we can come to grips with, but outside of punching it with massed troops (...mostly Khornate troops, and Fiends) we're just not going to kill vehicles. We might Bolt some to death, but that's it.

 

And with the mono-nurgle builds...the troops just aren't too killy. Nurgle-zilla (...and without Ku'gath, as I agree he's awfully pricey for a template that kills 1/4 of the troops under it) will hurt, and other than Beasts, not much in nurgle is that scary.

 

I also agree with the critique of daemonettes. They're just not...eh. I don't deny that they can be killy troops, but they really want to be taken in numbers and they're not a cheap horde choice. 5-10 points is a good price for something you need en-masse. 14? Not so much.

[minigun762]

I agree with him on the Soul Grinders, though. For 135, what kind of Daemon Prince build can we get? Our DP wings are just bloody expensive...and pure daemonzilla for us, with just 5, isn't necessarily enough to do it.

Maybe I'm just weird but I don't consider Wings to be a mandatory upgrade on a Daemon Prince. Because you're deepstriking (close to the enemy I'd hope) you have less of a worry about trying to close the distance. With good use of Icons and running the turn you drop in, you should be assaulting something the next turn or so. Some useful DP builds for less/equal to a Soul Grinder would be:

1) Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze = 125

2) Daemon Prince, Mark of Khorne, Iron Hide, Bleesing of the Blood God = 135

3) Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Iron Hide, Aura of Acquiescence = 125

4) Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch = 135

5 Daemon Prince, Iron Hide, Unholy Might = 130

 

I'm not saying that Soul Grinders aren't great, they're awesome! But we have a life for Daemon Princes that doesn't involve Wings. You just have to take an additional defensive upgrade. To me its the same as Carnifex. You don't see alot of 200+ point Carnifex out there do you? Instead you see lots of cheap, scary ones.

 

 

I'm honestly not that thrilled with anything in the fast-attack section.

 

I also agree that the bulk of the codex is GREAT at waxing the floor with any troops we can come to grips with, but outside of punching it with massed troops (...mostly Khornate troops, and Fiends) we're just not going to kill vehicles. We might Bolt some to death, but that's it.

As you mentioned though, I think Fiends are probably one of the best anti-tank units we have and I hadn't thought about them originally. S5 and Rending means you can glance AV14. Thats not great but atleast its something. Its almost more than enough to hit most AV10 rear armor which is the majority of vehicles you're going to see. They're not even useful going up against a Dreadnought, though you are relying on weight of attacks and Rending. Their best use is to get in fast with transports and battle tanks and kill them before they can knock out the rest of your army. Leave the AV14's to your MCs.

 

I also agree with the critique of daemonettes. They're just not...eh. I don't deny that they can be killy troops, but they really want to be taken in numbers and they're not a cheap horde choice. 5-10 points is a good price for something you need en-masse. 14? Not so much.

I want to like them I really do. Super fast and with Grenades seems like an awesome deal. Like Daemon versions of Banshees or Genestealers, but the numbers just aren't supporting them as well as I'd like. Bloodletters just beat them in straight killiness, but I guess thats fitting huh?

[Captain Malachi]

The thing about daemonettes is that you have to pick your battles. Take on the weaker squads, or the ones in cover, attack the squads where bloodletters are overkill and they become useful again, which is why I always take a squad along (that and I love the models). They also, on average, get to charge a turn before your bloodletters thanks to fleet, something a lot of people seem to ignore. Now I'm not saying they're good as a sole choice for troops, but they do work well in combination with other units, which is what you should be doing with all your units really.

[Raptor1313]

Wings on the daemon prince let it chase down faster transports and the like.

If, say, a fast skimmer with guns that range 24" or better doesn't want to hang out with 'em, well...

 

As for Fiends...

Well, against Dreads, they'll do more than Bloodcrushers. (which is 'die', generally. Yay fearless! Seriously, what's the idea with that? I HAVE LIGHTNING CLAWS AND I WILL KILL YOU, MR. DREADNOUGHT! Daemonses should be smarter than that. I hope...).

 

As for DP builds...

I'm not sure I like Tzeentch ones on principal. Shooty at least, but they can't get off a lot of shots, and only one anti-tank shot. Your model

 

I DEFINITELY don't like any of them without Iron Hide. Do you really want to play with a 130ish-point model with T5 and a 5+ save? T5 only kind of keeps you safe from small-arms fire, but a 5+ save is just...nonexistent. It bumps your base price up to 110.

 

Without hide, you have to inflict about six wounds to ice one. With Iron Hide, suddenly I need three wounds to get through (assuming no power weapons or AP3+) so I'm looking at 12 wounds to do the trick. That's a little better.

 

(The Soul Grinder totally laughs at small arms, but against melta weapons, well, different story. Part of the tradeoffs between the two).

 

Soulgrinder shoots better, hands-down with the blast template, and there's the Harvester, but it's kind of that afterthought.

 

I'd honestly have to think about the 130pt Iron Hide/Unholy Might build.

 

@Malachi

The speed is really the only asset Daemonettes can bring. you're correct to point it out, and maybe a uint of them could be useful as a stop-gap thing...My point is that they've got speed, and can kill...but we can get that elsewhere.

[Evil Homer]

It might just be me, I've been victimized by Daemonette spam, I had 60 of drop into me. I did pretty much everything right to, hit with my vindi, rapid fired with those with tacticals, ran 2 baal predators and opened up with everything. Charged with my 2 assault squads and DC, then I picked everything up 2 turns later. My dice were decent his were slightly above average. After the Daemonettes tied everything up the 2 squads of blood letters cleaned up what was left. Not a pretty picture. In the demon's defense he got what he wanted on the 1st turn and the rest of army all came on the 2nd turn. Was the first time in a long, long time I was tabled.

 

The guy then commenced to table his last 3 opponents and take 1st in the tourney. Now he is an ace player, really, really sound tactically and a great list builder. The number of daemonettes flying around was more than sufficient to do the job.

 

EH

[minigun762]

As for DP builds...

I'm not sure I like Tzeentch ones on principal. Shooty at least, but they can't get off a lot of shots, and only one anti-tank shot. Your model

 

I DEFINITELY don't like any of them without Iron Hide. Do you really want to play with a 130ish-point model with T5 and a 5+ save? T5 only kind of keeps you safe from small-arms fire, but a 5+ save is just...nonexistent. It bumps your base price up to 110.

 

I'd honestly have to think about the 130pt Iron Hide/Unholy Might build.

 

Those builds are ones that I just ran through quickly with the goal of keeping them cheaper than a Soul Grinder, alot of them could be improved alot if you go to 140 points or so. The Tzeentch one is a prime example, for 10 points more you can get Bolt of Change which gives you a decent BS5 tank killer.

 

I will admit that I'm really liking the idea of cheap Tzeentch Princes because for me, 4+ Inv negates the need for the Iron Hide and saves me points. If I went with a Daemon Prince (I'm too big of a fan of Soul Grinders to waste a spot haha ;) ) I'd probably go with:

Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch and Unholy Might = S6 and 4+ Inv should make me pretty scary and survivable and provides more protection against the Missiles, Power Fists and Plasma that will be targeted at your Daemon Princes.

[Captain Malachi]

As minigun said, Tzeentch's princes don't need iron hide, since a 4+ INV save is usually enough, they also don't need wings since they should be shooty, keeping the price down a lot. Also remember that a decent soulgrinder will almost always have phlegm or tongue, meaning that Tzeentch princes make a good alternative for fire support.

[Raptor1313]

I'm still a bit nervous about a T5 target with a 4++ save, but there's the point that powerfists and the like aren't as effective. Small arms, though, and quantity of fire are the issue. (Biggest example I can think of is Lootas, but I run into Orks a lot...though Eldar scatter lasers will also thank you for skimping it as well)

 

Same quantity-of-fire issue comes into play with the Bolt of Tzeentch. If we want to kill tanks with shooting, it's our best bet (...and honestly about only; I'd rather gamble on Phlegm hitting a tank, or just fleet to it and rain S10 punches down on it...). Still, with a BS 5 and a shot, the Daemon Prince stacks up like so...(I don't have my dex on-hand, but I think the bolt was AP1?)

83% of shots hit.

 

VS

AV10:

13.8% of glancing hit.

55% chance of penetrating hit.

If it's AP1, then 27% chance of popping it; otherwise 18.3% chance of popping it

 

AV11:

13.8% chance of a glance

41.5% chance of penetrating

IF AP1: 20.75% chance of a kill; if not, 13.8% chance

 

AV12:

13.8% chance of a glance

33% chance of a penetrating hit

IF AP1: 16.5% chance to kill; if not, 11% chance to kill

 

AV13

13.8% chance to glance

13.8% chance to penetrat

IF AP1: 6.9% chance to kill; if not, 4.6% chance to kill

 

AV14

13.8% chance to glance.

IF AP1: 2.3% chance to kill

 

Daemonic Gaze isn't really a factor once you hit AV11, and it's more of a 'it can happen' deal with AV10. Not enough shots to really make it worth it.

 

My biggest gripe with the Tzeentch DP is that you're taking a WS7, I5, 4-attack MC and giving it a mid-range anti-tank attack. The more time it spends shooting, the less time it's in melee using those nasty melee stats.

 

Though if you are bringing a Tzeentch DP with the goal of firing off shots every turn, then you're probably bringing Daemonic Gaze + Bolt of Tzeentch. To get the absolute MOST out of it, you really want We Are Legion, so you can fire the Bolt at a deserving target, and then pop off the daemonic gaze at infantry.

 

EDIT:

And if we're thinking of Heralds, the Tzeentch Chariot + Bolt + We Are Legion + Master of Sorcery is 110ish, faster, and by sitting back and shooting with it, you're not wasting an S5 power weapon by darting around and shooting. Plus, you're less likely to get into a fistfight because you're a jetbike.

[minigun762]

I'm still a bit nervous about a T5 target with a 4++ save, but there's the point that powerfists and the like aren't as effective. Small arms, though, and quantity of fire are the issue. (Biggest example I can think of is Lootas, but I run into Orks a lot...though Eldar scatter lasers will also thank you for skimping it as well)

 

My biggest gripe with the Tzeentch DP is that you're taking a WS7, I5, 4-attack MC and giving it a mid-range anti-tank attack. The more time it spends shooting, the less time it's in melee using those nasty melee stats.

 

First off, even though I gave the example of the Bolt of Tzeentch DP, I agree that thats a waste and if you want mobile tank shooting, take a Chariot Herald anyday of the week.

 

I think the main bonus of the Tzeentch Daemon Prince is his price. I would run him with Mark of Tzeentch and Unholy Might. Should be 125 points if I remember correctly. Compare that to the 150 point standard for a Nurgle DP with Iron Hide and Noxious Touch (leaving Wings out of the equation a both could use them).

Tzeentch is better at killing tanks and getting shot with high S low AP weapons (Missiles, LasCannon) while Nurgle is better at killing T5+ models and getting shot at with low-medium S high AP weapons (Heavy Bolters, AutoCannons). Both are equally good at killing T3/T4 units (which are the majority of things out there.

 

You mention Lootas. Frankly they are tailor made to kill a Tzeentch Daemon Prince and a Nurgle Daemon Prince is geared very well to survive them. Lets toss out some numbers and see how they do.

Assume 10 Lootas roll a 2 (since its average)

20 shots @ BS2 = 6.66 hits @ S7 = 5.5 wounds (Tzeentch) and 4.44 wounds (Nurgle) against a 4+ save = 2.75 unsaved wounds (Tzeentch) and against a 3+ save = 1.46 wounds (Nurgle).

Conclusion, Nurgle is almost twice as hard to kill as Tzeentch and is 20% more expensive. So in the best case scenario for Nurgle, he's going to be a better choice (as he should be)

 

Now lets look at another standard, the 4 Missile Launcher Dev squad.

4 shost @ BS4 = 2.66 hits @ S8 = 2.2 wounds (both) against a 4+ Save = 1.1 unsaved wound (Tzeentch) and a 1.46 unsaved wounds (Nurgle).

Conclusion, Tzeentch is about 33% harder to kill and is 17% cheaper. So he's both cheaper and better against shots that ignore T6 or a 3+ save.

 

Main point; Each one has their advantages. I tend to favor the Tzeentch because I make the assumption that the opponent's little guns will be aimed at my troops, forcing them to use their big guns on my DPs.

[==Me==]

Excellent points raised, that's a ot to consider.

 

I field Tzeentch DPs for the Bolt and combat stats you can't get from other Tzeentch units. It's very focused on one particular job, but it can hold its own in combat as well.

[Raptor1313]

Tzeentch DPs in a Tzeentch-themed list is one thing, and honestly I expect it.

 

The reason I mention Lootas is because you'll have to assume the Ork player will bring them, and they'll bring 12-15, so they can take some casualties and NOT have to take a Ld check at 7-8 and watch their guys run away screaming to mommy (who happens to be off the board).

 

Lootas are tailor-made to kill ANYTHING with AV12 or lower, and toughness 5 or lower. (...that's quite a lot, isn't it?)

 

I'd still be looking at a Soul Grinder (135 for basically an Ironclad dreadnought for us, without the meltagun or NEED to buy a heavy flamer, in terms of capabiltiies. Though that I3 thing is kind of a pisser vs. real dreadnoughts.)

 

To be honest, I don't see a lot of Devastator squads around here. I'd use the Dakka-Pred (Autocannon + HB sponsons) as another yardstick, since it's 85 points, and moderately capable of mowing down infantry and light/medium armor. Mostly it's a hell of a heavy support buy, in my book. (Not as good vs. hordes sometimes as the Whirlwind with the napalm death-missiles, but can do damage to more durable enemies and vehicles)

 

BS4

2 Autocannon shots > 1.3 autocannon hits

6 heavy bolter shots > 4 heavy bolter hits

 

Vs Tzeentch DP:

1.11 wound from autocannon

1.33 wounds from heavy bolters

Total: 1.22 wounds after the 4+ save

 

Vs Nurgle DP

0.89 wounds from autocannon

0.66 wounds from heavy bolters

Total: 0.51 wounds after the 3+ save

 

A lot of the order of the day is high volume of fire or template weapons. Most blast/template weapons will crank out one hit on us (...seeing as how, y'know, we're just one target).

 

Personally, I think Marines are better off with melta weapons as anti-tank, since we get that all-important AP1 and +1 to damage rolls, bumping you up to a 50% chance of popping tanks per pen.

 

That said, vs. marines I'd be more worried about melta-weapons, since they come on fast platforms (IE: MM/HF speeders, multi-melta attack bikes commonly) but in not too many shots.

 

Obviously with the better save, Tzeentch DPs are in better shape, as each melta shot has a 27% chance of wounding them. (after BS4, 2+ to wound, and a 4++ save).

 

Nurgle DPs have a 37% chance of being wounded by said melta weapons.

 

That translates to 10-11 melta shots to kill a non-Tzeentch DP, and 14-15 melta shots to kill a Tzeentch DP.

 

While these stats apply to powerfists as well, honestly ANY monstrous creature needs to steer well clear of a unit sporting multiple powerfists (read: Thunder Hammer terminators, Nobs, the like) as those'll just flat-out kill 'em.

 

The average 5-man thunder-hammer squad loses .7 termies on the charge to a non-Khorne DP when that squad gets the charge. (And let's assume they will, because you're not likely to stop that Land Raider Crusader from getting where it wants to be. Let's all have a nice laugh about just how much pain that vehicle is for us. Done? Good...)

 

So, four termies survive to swing their hammers. 12 attacks. Six hits. five wounds. 2.5 on the Tzeentch DP, 3.33 get through to non-Tzeentch ones.

 

So long, Mr. DP if he took any fire on the way in....

[minigun762]

Well said Raptor, I feel like there is alot of good info going back and forth and hopefully people will pick through it to find something good for them.

 

Its funny that I spent so much time talking about the Tzeentch DP because like I said, I'd never use a Heavy slot for anything other than "Grinders. They're just that cool of a model and I really like the backstory.

 

The Soul Grinder is basically the most "Iron Warriory" of all the Daemons so thats what draws me to it.

 

I do forget that you can take a naked 'Grinder. 135 points for a scary HtH unit. It would probably be easier to use than the others simply because you spend the first turns fleeting to get in close, then flame/shoot/charge.

 

EDIT: I think the real question is: When is it better to take a walking Daemon Prince over a 'Grinder? The 'Grinder is faster and cheaper normally and more resistant to everything other than S8+ firepower.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, walking daemon princes can be pretty hard if used right, and are smaller, so easier to hide and safer to DS.

[minigun762]

So whatever happen to that tactica we were going to write up hmmm?

[Captain Malachi]

Good question, maybe you should start it :lol:

[minigun762]

Good question, maybe you should start it ^_^

 

Hey its ==Me== and you who are the masters, I'm just the lowly little peon asking dumb questions and talking out my butt. :lol:

[Captain Malachi]

Aww, you think I'm a master :lol: To be honest I'm still waiting for ==Me== to get that thread started, I think he's forgotten.

[Raptor1313]

Walking DP do have the advantage of safer deep-strikes.

-Smaller 'footprint'

-1/6 chance of taking a wound, vs. 1/6 chance of being immobilized

-Easier to get cover for them. (...yeah. My Soul Grinder got a cover save in an Urban setting, once...then promptly climbed over the building.)

 

Though Grinders are shootier, or faster.

 

If/when I get around to a Tzeentch-themed army (currently going for the fiend-spam w/ Skarbrand, Fateweaver, and some Grinders with Nurgle troops) I'll be running triple DPs w/ MoT, Gaze, Bolt. They'll be the counterassault units, and I can live with that.

 

Plus Tzeentch-heavy can deal with the horde of mechanized units, since just about everyone can hold a Bolt of Tzeentch and toss it at the other guy.

[==Me==]

Heh, I've got a lot of stuff going on. I'll see if I can put some preliminary ideas down and we'll go from there.

 

Next stop, the Librarium!

[minigun762]

Heh, I've got a lot of stuff going on. I'll see if I can put some preliminary ideas down and we'll go from there.

 

Next stop, the Librarium!

 

I'm fine with starting something honestly but I'm curious what way we want to go with this. I'm sure there will be a review of the units, but something more detailed would be good. Discussion pro/cons to the army as a whole, beginning tactics/tricks, example army builds and why they work/don't work.

Basically something that a new Daemons player could read, understand and give them the confidence/ideas to play decently their first few games (until they replace our blabbering with actual experience ;) )

[Captain Malachi]

Well, it'll probably be a fairly long term thing, so how about we start with a unit breakdown, then go on to more detailed tactics and combos we've found useful, an extra section on the different mono-god lists would be useful as well..... yeah I think we have a pretty big task on our hands here. I say we start with a unit breakdown, and then worry about what comes after later, start with the HQ, then elites, troops, fast attack and heavy support, basically follow the codex.

[minigun762]

Well, it'll probably be a fairly long term thing, so how about we start with a unit breakdown, then go on to more detailed tactics and combos we've found useful, an extra section on the different mono-god lists would be useful as well..... yeah I think we have a pretty big task on our hands here. I say we start with a unit breakdown, and then worry about what comes after later, start with the HQ, then elites, troops, fast attack and heavy support, basically follow the codex.

 

Works for me, do we want to start a thread in here and just reply to it for the new additions. Then edit them into the original topic?

[==Me==]

I'm thinking something along those lines. Individual unit breakdowns, army tactics, as well as a guide for both beginners and tourney players. To round things off, a modelling/painting section will complete what can hopefully be called a comprehensive guide to the Daemonic.

[Captain Malachi]

Start a new thread, go through a unit at a time, might need to make multiple threads after a while.....

[Raptor1313]

Well, is the guide going to be posted at some point?

 

I think it might be beneficial to go through a unit at a time, getting a few posts and making sure it stays on topic.

 

I'd think units need to be evaluated in terms of what they can do individually for their cost, and what they can do for your army. (IE: Beasts of Nurgle are really nothing worth thinking about, BUT if you put them in a Tallyman army...).