templargdt Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Hi guys, quick question for you Grey Knights out there, do you guys use Storm Troopers? I'm trying to build the toughest GK list I can and am thinking about all the options in the codex. If you do use them, what do you use them for? Thanks in advance! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosk Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 My bro plays GK, I do not, but, My bro uses Storm Troopers for both fluff reasons, and to increase his numbers. When I play against him I have noticed that they do not do much until i get close and flamers hit me. He also uses them to get more special weapon choices. I play WH and have found that my sisters, point for point, are better then the ISTs, but I always have Arbites in my army. I would also assume that the regular grey knights point for point, are better than the ISTs, but It could give you some extra troops (or even some vehicles, chimeras are awesome IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empty Bolter Clip Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I've used them in the past for a few reasons.... 1) Fluff. Plus I have FW Inquisitor Doors that I like to show off... 2) They are cheap compared to the regular GKs. Basically, they serve as my "objective takers" in the army. I feel much better planting a 100 pt squad on an objective, leaving my GKs to keep dishing out some pain.... especially when the objective is an area that may not see a lot of action all game. Long story short, take em if you like them but your army can definitly function without them. - Empty Bolter Clip - Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosk Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Empty Bolter Clip said something just excellent. Use them as cheap "objective takers", because GK are expensive, and should be used to kill the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Rodger, it sounds like reasons to use STs is 1) Fluff (I'm not a huge fluff guy) 2) Cheap objective takers For 2, wouldn't inducted Guard be better? I don't have a Guard codex but can't an average guard squad buy some lascannons, which GK always could use, and do the same job as ST? Heck, I could see buying a Guard squad for 1) Sitting on my home objective and 2) shooting heavy weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I like IST for the reasons stated above and because I like a mobile force. GKs don't have dedicated transports so you have to take LRs to ferry them around. I love LRs, but they are expensive! One squad of 10x GKs in a LR comes out to more than 500 points. If you add pyscannons or incinerators this could get up to 600 points. Not that you can't do just fine using squads like this, but it sure feels sparse. On the other hand, a squad of 10 IST w/ 2x special weapons in a Rhino comes out to less than 200 points. I think IST look even more attractive if you want a mechanized army. Of course, you could also do the same thing by inducting SOB. Another argument for IST is that if you have two squads available you have a very flexible pool of troops if you feel like playing radical or if you want to have lists of varying point values for pick-up games. In my experience, IST are ignored until the latter stages of the game where they turn out to be a bit tougher than expected. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The problem with inducted guard is that you have to either A) buy a platoon (160pts+upgrades, bringing it over 200pts easily) or B} buy an Armoured Fist squad (130pts+upgrades, bringing it over 160pts easily). Either way it's way more expensive than an IST squad. Granted, with the platoon option you get more models, and with the as heck option you get a pretty good transport, but once you get up to those points I'd personally rather just take another PAGK squad. The beauty of ISTs is that you can take 8 of them with 2 special weapons and it's still only 100pts, which is about half of a PAGK squad. Sit them in cover, behind line of site blocking terrain, possibly even from reserves, and they should survive most games (mine seem to unfailingly do so). My usual 1750pt list has 2 Raiders (with PAGK squads with psycannons), 1 Crusader (PAGK with incinerator, and BC), and a 7-man squad of ISTs with meltaguns. The meltas are there so that if the enemy sends a tank to contest my backfield objective, I can deal with that. It has worked out great for me so far, letting my PAGKs concentrate on upfield objectives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apogee Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I use my troopers mostly for objective holding. I have 1 of each special weapon, and jsut enough troopers to round out two 5 man squads. I roll one with flamer/melta and one with plasma/grenade launcher. I keep the long range one in the back to nab an objective, and send the close range one up after my sisters have engaged; they offer fire support and hide by the next closet objective. I also use them as an excuse to take Chimeras. Chims are big, fat transports, with decent firepower, and conveniently block LOS to Rhinos or Repentia. Thuse, they make great delivery systems, albiet sacrificial. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1834703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 No. Never. (Bar Apocalypse). They're points that could have given me a couple more much needed PAGK. And they suck. (I'm not going to justify this. :) Find your Meltas/Plasmas elsewhere!) Also, if I wanted to play the non super-human humans in 40K, I'd have made an IG army. Either use a Marine based (or WH based ) army and use/induct SM Scouts. If you *really* want non GK troops. The new SM Scouts are far superior, even with a one point lower BS. Edit: Or as mentioned above, ally in some SoB. They'll fair you much better than IST. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1835319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'm a big fan of IST for two reasons. First, they add cheap numbers with good access to weapons that the GK can really use. Second, you can get a lot more of them for less than GKs, both in real money and in points value. Of course a third, ancillary reason is that they just look neat (I use the Kasrkin models). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1835564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Sorry for thread jacking but do you guys reckon that 4 5 man units of IST are better than 2 10 man units? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1874495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistorius Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 My ISTs are an integral part of the army. I generally run two squads...one with meltas in a Rhino, and the other with plasma guns in a Chimera. The plasma/chimera group sets up a decent firebase with my Inquisitor & Retinue, claiming the home objective, while the Melta squad chases my Grey Knights around the board and slags any armor that my lascannons fail to damage. I've had quite a bit of success with them. Notable moments were when the melta squad insta-gibbed a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor right after he teleported onto the battlefield. Another memorable instance saw my Plasma Gun squad wipe out an entire squad of Terminators in one shooting phase (who says super-charged flashlights are useless?) and then managed to survive the assault from the attached Chaplain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1874517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 In my current 1750 grey knight army, I run 3x10 termies (naked save for lots of thunderhammers), 2 ist squads, and an inducted guard platoon. My special weapons are 3 missle launchers in the guard and 2 flamers in each inducted guard platoon. Basicly, I use the IST to represent flamer squads of imp guard (the 4+ armor is there cause you dont want the fuel tanks exploding), and the concept of the guard/ist is to be a beleagered trencher force struggling to survive versus a chaos incursion, when from the heavens decend salvation in the form of 30 Grey Knight Terminators. Thus, I always deepstrike the termies regardless of whether it is the right play or not, and since PAGK are not troops if they teleport, I MUST take IST to make the list legal. My previous list used 2 IST /w rhinos that were given to 2x10 PA squads with 2 incenerators, which made the PAGK much better. Now that I cant do that without resorting to brining WH IST allies cause of the dumb DH IST still using archaic dedicated transports, I lost interest in the whole concept, and went to the 0 transport 30 GKT force--and gave the 2 IST rhinos to a chaos player of all things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1874601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 30 GKTs? That's got to be fun to field. :-D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1874955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Right, one thing GKs can't do reliably is kill marines at range (the justicars PW helps in CC), and that's what IST's are for, 10 men, 2 plasma guns, a few dead marines for a darned good price. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1874957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
madtroll Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 seriously, storm troopers are awesome. 5 man squad with two plasma guns or two meltas each is 70 points. Put them in a rhino or chimera and rush them forward. using your transports as mobile terrain and giving them cover your opponent will spend several turns wasting resources to get rid of these little gnats. They can't ignore them because they have two BS4 ass kickers in every squad. I just wish I had more troop options in the FOC so I could bring more. They are NOT scoring units. Ok they technically are scoring units, but your wasting them if you use them that way. They are cheap, disposable speed bumps. Often I will run 4 squads of stormtroopers that rush up in the opponents face and annoy the :D outta him while my 2 squads of 20 sisters each maneuver and win the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1875245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Well, I used ISTs for the first time today in a 750 point game in our LGS escalation league, Ironically enough against another Grey Knight player. They worked out ok, they sat in their Rhino behind a building all game, close enough to claim either of two nearby objectives. They also killed a Deep Striking Grand Master with their melta guns, so that was pretty cool. Overall, not bad, although I've ordered the Witch Hunter codex from the LGS because I think Sisters might do the job better. We'll have to see! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1876626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistorius Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Sisters are definitely better for the Ordo Hereticus, but the Stormtroopers fill a unique niche for Ordo Malleus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1876648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I use Inquisitorial Stormtroopers in my Ordo Malleus Force a lot. I love my Grey Knights, but they make lousy Troops choices on my Force Organization chart. Anything I can get out of a Troops choice of Grey Knights I can get out of a Teleport Attack Squad - plus Deep Strike. Furthermore, I don't want to reward my opponent any more for shooting at my over-pricing Power Armor guys. Wiping out my points is bad enough. Denying me scoring units is just piling on. Playing the Ordo Malleus competitively means being especially sensitive to the limitations of Grey Knights. They have a ton of points sunk into superior Close Combat ability. They lack any shooting capability over Strength 6, which leaves them with a large blind spot against Armor. They lack any shooting capability over AP4, so they have severe problems with Fire-Fights with MEQ units. You can't assault from Deep Strike. You use any transport save the Land Raider On the flip side, you have Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers have their points sunk into shooting and are terrible at Close Combat (S3, T3, I3, WS3). They have a wide selection of shooting upgrades (2 per squad). They have Meltas for Armor, Plasma Guns for MEQ, Grenade Launchers for Hordes / Light Armor, and Flamers for pure hordes and cover saves. They also have full access to Rhino transports which gets them into range for their Assault and Rapid Fire weapons. The two forces types of units complement eachother splendidly, each covering the other's weakness so they can specialize. Stormtroopers will give your Plasma Gunlines as well as small squads in Rhinos with Meltas that function as suicide tank-hunters. Grey Knights give you incredibly powerful Assault troops. The best use of their specialty role is likely loading up a squad of Terminators into a Land Raider and ramming 5 guys with S6 power weapons right down the enemy's throat. If you happen to have placed an Anvil behind the enemy in the form of a Teleport Attack Squad your Land Raider Hammer so much the better. You use Grey Knights as a hammer-and-anvil assault strategy to turn a key advanced position (preferably an Objective or Gun Line) into a slaughter house. You use Storm Troopers in Rhinos as Flankers coral or tie down straggling enemy units and armor. As an added bonus, the Rhinos can provide a screen for the Land Raider's initial approach vector. Daemonhunter Smoke Launchers aren't redundant with Cover Saves for Vehicles. Instead you have a 4+ cover save AND -2 to all results on the damage table for the shots that do connect. Meanwhile, you use foot-slogging Stormtroopers to control objectives and take longer-ranged shots. You're probably looking at spending about 750 on 2 units of Grey Knights + Land Raider, and likely about 600-700 points of Stormtroopers and Rhinos - a balanced allocation. In terms of model count, though, you're looking at like 15 Grey Knights and 40-50 or so Stormtroopers along with 4 Rhinos and a Land Raider. Still, it all fits at 1500 points with adequate room to take an Inquisitor for the superior Psychic Hood or to just upgrade your Brother Captain to a Grand Master and give him the Hood. - Marty Lund Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1877630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I agree that ISTs cover for certain weaknesses in GKs. I also agree that ISTs deserve attention as a worthy Troops choice in the DH codex for all the reasons you note. However, I take strong exception with assessments like "they make lousy Troops choices" or that their shooting capability is so crippling that they have "severe problems in firefights against MEQ units". Or even that "they have a ton of points sunk into superior close combat ability". Neither of the first two statements is true at all, and the last one I quoted is very misleading. GKs actually make excellent footslogging (unmounted) Troops choices. Plain vanilla, no modifications, they create a constant 24"-30" threat bubble (when you include movement) because of their stormbolters. There are very few units in 40K that can claim to have that much anti-infantry firepower while on the move, all while protected by 3+ armour and the shrouding. Give them a pair of psycannons and you can plant them on an objective and dare people to take it from them. I play Marines and Chaos Marines regularly and -- I kid you not -- the biggest complaint they have when they play me is not the NFWs the Knights carry; it's the stormbolters. Played with a different approach than you seem to be advocating -- as pure assault troops -- they can easily outstrip ISTs in shooting kills against most enemy infantry. (Obviously a double plasma unit will likely shoot down more terminator-equivalent or monstrous creature units, but those aren't the majority of enemies you face, and as you rightly note, GKs do have other tools in their toolbox to deal with even those kinds of threats.) And yes, some of the expense of a GK's points cost is True Grit and S6. But to consider them nothing but assault troops is to completely ignore the not insignificant investment put into the stormbolter and the shrouding. GKs are balanced. To focus nigh exclusively on just one half of their capabilities is wasteful and inefficient. Also, a rules error that needs correcting. Daemonhunter Smoke Launchers aren't redundant with Cover Saves for Vehicles. Instead you have a 4+ cover save AND -2 to all results on the damage table for the shots that do connect. Codex overrules BRB. It does not stack or enhance BRB rules. You must choose to either play pure RAW -- and DH smoke launchers will force all hits against the vehicle to be glancing -- or you must decide to play by a house rule where the BRB instead takes precedence, and smoke launchers will give the vehicle a 4+ cover save. You don't get to benefit from both; it's either one or the other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1877787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistorius Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 +1 to everything Number6 said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1877833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I agree, I try to keep my GKs out of assaults as long as possible. I'd rather scoot and shoot all day long then get into a CC quagmire. Same thing goes with my GKTs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1877887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I play Marines and Chaos Marines regularly and -- I kid you not -- the biggest complaint they have when they play me is not the NFWs the Knights carry; it's the stormbolters. For me it's the other way 'round. ;) Folks don't care about my Stormbolters, but dread seeing my PAGK in CC. Which is strange as I try to play more shooty and take advantage of our SB over the NFW. I am starting to feel though, that versus anything (bar Bloodletters) my PAGK will perform better in CC than shooting. If only they had a delivery method other than a LR. (It's just personal bias here, I know I could do a lot better in my matches by using 2 LR, but I don't like them, for various reasons) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1878374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Rosette Soulknyt Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well not that i play GK I play a SoB army but i do have a squad of Storm troopers and a squad of Arbites, yes with all shotguns and 2 grenade launchers just for the uniqueness of them I hardly use them though, unless im playing a very large Apoc battle, and for me combining them to take objectives works for me. For the times i have used them, no complaints here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1878474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Number 6 I think he was referring to actual cover saves conferred by terrain for vehicles... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/156857-using-storm-troopers/#findComment-1878709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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