Brainstorming for my Raven Guard Successor!

[CantonWC]

Hey everyone

 

I would just like to use this post to thank everyone for their feedback so far. it feels like I haven't posted in a while, although that's not true. I'm writing this because, unfortunately, I think I'm going to have fly under the radar for a little while. School is slowly eating my soul, and I really have to catch up on work. So, don't expect any further meditations in the immediate future. I fully intend to respond to every post I haven't addressed at some point, even if it's just a passing "thank you, good job" kind of thing B) Especially you Molotov, that's a particularly juicy post you have left for me to dissect :huh: I think the best thing for me to do is slowly address my meditations piecemeal, in small sections rather than the huge chunks I have been writing. Otherwise I won't get anywhere, either with this brainstorming thread or schoolwork.

 

I would encourage you to look at 'Beliefs' over 'Homeworld' and the like. The Beliefs section is the heart of any good DIY Chapter. It's where your focus should be

 

I feel this is one thing I absolutely have to address before signing off. Yes, you're absolutely right Mol - Beliefs will be the most important part of my Chapter, perhaps more important to them than it would for most other Chapters. Which is somewhat ironic, since I consider them to be borderline atheists. I didn't start this thread to give them a History and Homeworld and all that stuff, because that's basically filler I can work on later. I started this thread because I wanted to explore their character - it is what they believe and how they act on those beliefs that really define them.

 

That said, I am not looking forward to meditating on 'Beliefs' at all. It's going to be the longest, most convoluted and hardest of all to write I think. i thought at first it would be relatively easy - old school heroes rising above limitation, conquering the odds, trying to restore meaning in a seemingly meaningless existence. But then I realized that their beliefs could be so, so much more - more multi-layered and multi-faceted.

 

Look forward to the following meditations in the coming months: - Combat Doctrine, Beliefs, Battle Cry, (Chapter Colors, Markings, Chapter Symbols, and Heraldry), Allies and Enemies. And maybe more, depending on what I can think of.

 

I've noticed that you have some nice artwork for your Castigators Mol - I'm thinking that when the time comes, you might help me out on that? :) Get me in touch with the right people and all that, because I can't draw for ****.

[CantonWC]

To Ensis Ferrae:

 

Well, I wouldn't know about the RG having as many as 90,000 men at Istvaan ^_^ i don't know if the Horus Heresy books addressed the issue of the precise numbers of the Legions, but I've always felt that the RG was probably one of the smaller Legions. Fits right in with their credo of 'more with less.'

 

And I also don't think that the RG would have had other men stationed elsewhere during Istvaan. The way it's written, it seems like those three Legions, the RG, Sallies, and Iron Hands really were nearly wiped out at Istvaan - and if there were RG stationed elsewhere, they would have shown up sooner or later. Remember that things must have been really bad if Corax decided he had no choice but to go through with the experiments.

 

Still, the thought HAS crossed my mind that, even if a handful of Ravens had managed to escape Istvaan, that's still a handful of pure, untainted gene-seed. I've wondered to myself where I could go with a plot line involving a semi-mythical stockpile of pure Raven Guard gene-seed, a kind of literal Holy Grail for the RG that would allow them to, in a sense, start over. Or, a tome of forgotten lore, detailing ancient bio-engineering techniques that would allow the RG to repair their gene-seed, for which it would be a lot easier to explain a why and how.

 

We also must not forget that Corax himself is perhaps still out there, somewhere. Who can say what he has seen and endured in the Eye of Terror, if indeed that was where he went, and if he still lives? Perhaps he still atones for his transgressions, or perhaps he is planning something else - redemption and resurrection.

 

To Commissar Molotov:

 

Keep your eye on this post, because I'll be using it to slowly respond to your points whenever I have the time.

 

An interesting viewpoint to be sure - especially given that in some ways your Chapter is shaping up to be similar to the Castigators! The increased attention given to maintaining and preserving the quality of gene-seed, the role of the Apothecarion and such shows that if you go too far in one direction you start coming back on yourself. Despite being seeming opposites there are a number of interesting thematic similarities.

 

Hm, how so are they similar in your opinion? I've been slowly reviewing the Castigators thread to see if I can pick out anything to jog my inspiration, and I've noticed that, for all their arrogance and doctrinal hypocrisy, there are still some redeeming qualities to the Castigators. They're still loyal Imperial servants, obviously. And I think they would have similar views regarding the Emperor's 'flock.' I have trouble articulating my thoughts sometimes, so I'll use an example. The Marines Malevolent, who were present during one of the Armageddon Wars, can't remember which, deliberately bombed a camp full of Orks even though there were a large number of human hostages in the camp as well. When confronted about their actions, the Marines Malevolent stated something to the effect of 'collateral damage,' and that the humans in the camp didn't deserve to live anyway. The Marines Malevolent were superior beings to whom traditional rules of morality did not apply. I think both the Castigators and the Dark Swords would agree that this method of thinking is wrong, and that the Marines Malevolent have lost sight of what it means to be a Marine, what their purpose is.

 

As for increased emphasis on genetic purity, I suppose so. The Dark Swords and Castigators pursue the same course of action from different starting points. The Castigators, out of a deep-rooted paranoia and insecurity, the Dark Swords, out of necessity.

 

My thoughts with Raven Guard Chapters is that, similarly to Chapters from the gene-line of Sanguinius, they would be more prevalent in earlier foundings. As the millennia progress, the proportion of new Ultramarines successors increases per founding, I figure. Earlier Chapters have the advantage that the full implications of the gene-tampering, etc might not have fully been realised.

 

To my mind, the Age of Apostasy really cuts the ten thousand-year history of the Imperium in half. Also, consider that there have only been five Astartes Foundings since the Age of Apostasy, so it's difficult to call a Chapter created in M37 a 'middling' Chapter. I mean, sure they have something in the order of four thousand years of history, but... I suppose I see 2nd-19th Founding Chapters the "earlier" ones. Numerically, of course, Chapters around the thirteenth Founding would be in the middle.

 

What you say makes sense; I am starting to get a clearer picture of the Dark Swords' Founding, incorporating several suggestions already made. An earlier Founding; Administratum protocol that may have called for all Loyalist Legions to be 'represented' at each Founding, but a practice that is gradually abandoned when the various flaws become better known (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, etc.), and politicking starts to cloud the issue (like, say, the Dark Angels being all insular and the Iron Hands being bum buddies with the AdMech). Eventually I'd imagine that later Foundings are almost entirely UM, with a handful of Chapters created from other stocks as a way of 'testing' them for viability or any number of things.

 

There's only a couple of problems I need to work out with an earlier Founding - not problems, per say, but issues I need to work out.

 

First, I need to figure out what to do with all the extra millennia of history I have to work with - which isn't bad, it just gives me more to think about. What has my Chapter been up to all this time? Specifically the Age of Apostasy, as I'm not quite sure how to handle that yet. As I understand it most Astartes stayed neutral during that dark time, which I can't imagine would sit well with the Dark Swords, what with having somewhat of a hero complex and all.

 

Second, advanced technology. Being a more senior Chapter, they'll have better priority, and maybe the opportunity to get cool stuff that more junior Chapters might not have. I need to be mindful of what they may have access to; I still want there to be limits on what they have. Otherwise it takes away from the feeling that they are fighting the odds every day because they can just pull out some arcane gear from the Armory to smite the opposition.

 

Lastly, seniority. I'vbe never thought of my Chapter as being a bunch of geezers, to put it lightly :lol: How are these younger Chapters going to feel when this older Chapter shows them up on the battlefield? The fact that they have deviant gene-seed, making them borderline mutants in the eyes of some, and unorthodox tactics that may not be necessarily drawn word for word from the Codex, is sure to rankle some people - but millennia of service to the Imperium might allay others. I've always imagined the Dark Swords as being somewhat outcast - a little reclusive, never staying in one place for long, having to prove their worth to others. If they have seniority that might take away from that theme a little bit.

 

I watched your clip from Batman Begins with great interest. It certainly has a lot of analogous potential for the Astartes. Rā's al Ghūl plays an interesting character - I can certainly see Liam Neeson as a Scout Sergeant! The development of Batman, the assumption of that personality is interesting when considering the development of a Space Marine.

 

I'm glad you liked it. It's one of my favorite movies, and that scene is one of the most gripping and intense in the whole film. i have drawn so much inspiration from it - you could say that that scene and the character of Batman really forms the bedrock of the Dark Swords. If you're interested, I would suggest searching for 'Batman Unmasked' or 'Psychology of the Dark Knight' on Youtube. It's a documentary, roughly an hour long, kinda cheesy in some parts but very good overall and I have also drawn a lot from that as well. And I do agree that Liam Neeson would make an excellent Scout Sergeant as well - he does enter into that teacher role a lot it seems :lol: I have considered making that duel on the ice a part of the training of the Dark Swords - or some concept similar to it. They say in that documentary that the notion of choice is central to Batman, and I wonder if I can't incorporate that concept into the Dark Swords. They should have the choice, not merely have it drilled into their mind via psycho therapy to unquestioningly serve the Emperor like many SMs tend to be written. They should be able to freely contemplate the choice between the good and evil inside all of them - between life and death, order and chaos, between pleasure and conquest, and ultimately, meaninglessness, or hardship, pain and blood and tears, but ultimately, a sense of purpose, and devotion to ideals greater than oneself.

 

An interesting quote in that clip is 'you must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent'. Psychological warfare is a key tool in the Space Marine's arsenal - hence why many of them wear bright colours to announce their arrival to the enemy. Of course the Raven Guard and their ilk take a slightly different tack, but their methods of war emphasise their superiority in the minds of their opponents, and it's something valuable indeed.

 

Actually there were a lot of great quotes in the scene, but the one you picked out is certainly great as well ^_^ I agree that psychological warfare is a key weapon for a Space Marine, and it certainly helps that an Astartes is already literally more than a man. My problem is that psywar seems to be relatively straightfoward for an average Chapter - drop out of the sky screaming in drop pods and laugh at your puny opponents as your armor makes a mockery of most of the enemy's weapons. Which is perfectly fine, because usually it's all the Astartes need, but why not go a little further? i think that could fit well, because RG tend to be a little more cerebral than most, and psywar would certainly help establish that extra edge since they seem to specialize in squad-level surgical attacks. Smoke grenades can help defeat most average cultists and the like without enhanced optics. Flashbang-type grenades go a little further, defeating most conventional optic sensors and temporily depriving enemies of their eyes and ears. And what about Apothecaries? I think they can be more than just Battle Medics. How about Hallucinogenic weapons that can alter enemies' perceptions, or poisons and sedatives to disable enemies. Draping oneself in skulls and trophies seems to be a time-honoured tradition for both Loyalist and Traitor Astartes judging from the art - but the stigma of being too closely associated with the Night Lords could be a problem. and I don't want to just riff Batman 100% - less emphasis on causing terror, but have it as one tool among many.

 

I always found IA: Raven Guard to be a little ambiguous as to whether Corax's experiments into the Weregeld actually happened before or after the Raven Guard legion split. I think you'd have to examine IA:RG carefully, line-by-line, to ascertain the truth

 

Whoops forgot about this. I just reviewed IA: Raven Guard, and I think it makes it fairly clear, unfortunately that the gene experiments were occurring as the fires of theHorus Heresy still burned. Only after did Corax split his Legion - so all RG Chapters now bear deformed gene-seed. Still, I wonder where I could go with a pure GS stockpile "Holy Grail" type of plot line.

 

I would suggest that your Chapter has a general area in which it operates - doing so would enable it to maintain oaths and contracts with the Adeptus Mechanicus on particular forgeworlds. The Adeptus Mechanicus is not a homogenous entity; it's divided into factions and different Forgeworlds will often maintain different beliefs as to the Omnissiah and the like.

 

Yeah, that makes sense. When it comes to idealism and practicality the latter usually wins out, and I think the Dark Swords would have the sense to see that. They would still try to patrol a wide stretch of the galaxy - but having a 'home sector(s)' to go back to for rest and refit makes sense. Now I'll have to think of a whole Home Sector instead of just one planet - this thing gets more complicated every day.

 

I agree that your Chapter likely would be under-strength, especially if they've resolved to try to keep your Chapter as genetically pure as possible. In times where the Chapter is drastically reduced in size, what would happen to your depleted Reserve Companies?

 

Well, how do the Castigators handle their recruitment issues? ;) i don't really have a straight answer for you. I would imagine that if the Chapter took especially hard losses, they would pull back to build up their numbers again, however much it would pain them to not be able to help defend the Imperium. The Veterans would probably continue their covert work, acting in a support capacity alongside allies - it's dangerous, but their skill and the nature of their missions (see but don't be seen, strike only when necessary) would probably allow them to get through most missions without any loss. I imagine that the loss of even an average line Marine is about the equivalent of losing 3-4 Marines from another Chapter, so they must take care not to throw their lives away needlessly. This would probably give the impression that the Dark Swords are 'super' - if I write fiction for them they're hardly ever going to take losses. But it's necessary, because even the loss of one Marine hurts.

 

With regards to your 4/4/2 organisation

 

I'm leaning more toward 5/3/2 actually

 

When you talked about mobile asasult squads it made me think that it's a shame you can't have assault marines with bolters - that would be a neat image, squads moving rapidly to provide fire support.

 

Well that's the thing - in the fluff, why not? If the Assault Squad in question decides that bolters would be better than chainsword/pistol, then they should have what they need. I don't think Guilliman would mandate that Assault Squads always have chainsword/pistol - that's just tactically inflexible. Now obviously Tacs/Assault/Devs have their specific roles on the battlefield - but at times one needs to improvise, to be a little self-sufficient because the squad that you were counting on for whatever might not be able to support you, being incapacitated or, heaven forbid, destroyed. The Assault Marines are ideally suited to take advantage of this notion of maximum flexibility since they are the most mobile infantry elements of the army.

[CantonWC]

Finished editing responses. don't expect meditations for a while

[Commissar Molotov]

I feel this is one thing I absolutely have to address before signing off. Yes, you're absolutely right Mol - Beliefs will be the most important part of my Chapter, perhaps more important to them than it would for most other Chapters. Which is somewhat ironic, since I consider them to be borderline atheists. I didn't start this thread to give them a History and Homeworld and all that stuff, because that's basically filler I can work on later. I started this thread because I wanted to explore their character - it is what they believe and how they act on those beliefs that really define them.

 

Well, every Chapter will have its own cult of belief. Different ideals and such will be promoted or denigrated. The Chaplains espouse the Cult of Belief, the Chapter promotes warriors that exemplify it - it's pretty much the most important section of any article, although people tend to overlook it. It's not the 'what', but the 'why' - and the 'why' differentiates your Chapter from every other. In an ideal world, anyway.

 

I've noticed that you have some nice artwork for your Castigators Mol - I'm thinking that when the time comes, you might help me out on that? ;) Get me in touch with the right people and all that, because I can't draw for ****.

 

Well, the art is incidental - though no doubt it's won the Castigators 'fans', You could perhaps check out Illuminatus, a Games Workshop/Warhammer 40,000 art forum that needs more visitors!

 

Still, the thought HAS crossed my mind that, even if a handful of Ravens had managed to escape Istvaan, that's still a handful of pure, untainted gene-seed. I've wondered to myself where I could go with a plot line involving a semi-mythical stockpile of pure Raven Guard gene-seed, a kind of literal Holy Grail for the RG that would allow them to, in a sense, start over. Or, a tome of forgotten lore, detailing ancient bio-engineering techniques that would allow the RG to repair their gene-seed, for which it would be a lot easier to explain a why and how.

 

I wouldn't; it's a little trite. I'm fully aware of the irony when I say this, but I can't help thinking that you're beginning to go too far with your obsession over the geneseed. Not their obsession, but yours. It's useful for your Chapter because you can play the whole "hero from humble circumstances having to overcome the obstacles in their way" angle - but the Raven Guard are still able to fight - so what if their melanchrome or their mucranoid don't work? It's not as if it was their secondary heart. I just think you need to look at it in the context of the entire Chapter - mythical pots of gold at the end of mythical rainbows aren't really adding that much to 40k. I don't think you need a foolish quest narrative - the 40k mythos could certainly do without another!

 

 

Hm, how so are they similar in your opinion? I've been slowly reviewing the Castigators thread to see if I can pick out anything to jog my inspiration, and I've noticed that, for all their arrogance and doctrinal hypocrisy, there are still some redeeming qualities to the Castigators. They're still loyal Imperial servants, obviously. And I think they would have similar views regarding the Emperor's 'flock.' I have trouble articulating my thoughts sometimes, so I'll use an example. The Marines Malevolent, who were present during one of the Armageddon Wars, can't remember which, deliberately bombed a camp full of Orks even though there were a large number of human hostages in the camp as well. When confronted about their actions, the Marines Malevolent stated something to the effect of 'collateral damage,' and that the humans in the camp didn't deserve to live anyway. The Marines Malevolent were superior beings to whom traditional rules of morality did not apply. I think both the Castigators and the Dark Swords would agree that this method of thinking is wrong, and that the Marines Malevolent have lost sight of what it means to be a Marine, what their purpose is.

 

The 'redeeming qualities' comment amused me - In the 40k universe, arrogance and doctrinal hypocrisy aren't entirely things to be ashamed of! ;) Something I've tried to encourage with the Castigators is to avoid taking the easy road. The DIY Community is full of wonderful shining and even "nice" Chapters, whose warriors are shining paragons of truth and justice. The Castigators are what they are, but it's important to remember that the 40k universe has shaped them. The 'Grim Darkness of the Far Future' has always been an evocative enivronment for me. The galaxy is a bleak, dangerous and inhospitable environment for Humanity, beset on all sides by enemies too hideous to contemplate and clinging on to the last decaying vestiges of a golden age long passed. As the second edition Codex Imperialis states:

 

'Today is the time of the Beneficient Emperor, the Age of the Imperium of Mankind. It is an age of war already ten thousand years old. In this war mere survival is justly hailed as victory. Defeat can only lead to the irrevocable end of humanity and to the destruction of the very fabric of the universe. It is a war waged across the darkness of space, on a million worlds, and within the depths of every human soul. There can be no conceivable end. No peace except perhaps in oblivion.'

 

The Space Marines exemplify this terrifying situation. They are the 'Angels of Death'; the only reason for their existence is endless war. it is their reality. There are so many rich, strong ideals and themes surrounding the Marines. they are the last living link to the Emperor, and work unceasingly to shore up Imperial civilisation, to pull it back from the precipice that could only ever lead to extinction. The Space Marines have always inspired me. They endure so much - horrific surgical procedures and enhancements, being torn away from their families to serve the whims of a God-Emperor that they'll never see. They fight and gladly die in the certain conviction that their sacrifice will make a difference.

 

So in the beginning, my biggest influence was to really examine the core themes of the Space Marines. In my view, any Space Marine Chapter needs to build upon these cornerstones and use them as their base. That's a key part of ensuring the Chapter really feels a part of this universe. The universe is grim and dark, and only the grim and dark can hope to survive. The Castigators abhor those who stand against them in their hard-fought war for racial survival. Really, you can view the Castigators as a comment on religious fanaticism and persecution. You could consider the eugenical policies of the Losancans as similar to those of Nazi Germany, or the actions of Chinese families killing unwanted children of the 'wrong' gender. Such actions might be seen as 'wrong' to us, but fit perfectly within the grim darkness of the Imperium. You could argue that less value is placed on individual human life in the Imperium - but equally, you can argue that the Losancans (and the Castigators) are making the hard decisions to do what's needed to safeguard the 'purity' of human life.

 

Equally, I tried to ensure that the characters weren't perfect. Captain Caphius is a great example. Hopefully you're familiar with him - he's greedy, arrogant, domineering, power-hungry - but he fights for the Imperium with every single fibre of his being. I wanted to move away from traditional (and simplistic) binary oppositions. To a degree, I can understand why Captain Vinyard ordered the Marines Malevolent to shell the artillery camp. Here's an extract from the Third Armageddon War website:

 

At the battle's conclusion I confronted the leader of the Space Marines, Captain Vinyard, and appraised him of my disapproval regarding his battle stratagems. Not only did the captain threaten my life, but he also stated that those who had died in the camp were expendable and acceptable losses. He went on to say that those who would not fight against the Orks and would cower in a camp had no right to live because their freedom was bought with another's blood. Captain Vinyard then expounded fully (and at some length) on his belief in the ultimate supremacy of humanity in war and his Chapter's tenets of belief. Namely that there is no such thing as innocence, merely degrees of guilt. I fully believe that the Marines Malevolent hold Imperial citizens in contempt and perceive themselves to be self-evidently superior to their fellow man. While biologically this may indeed be the case, I feel it is a worrying psychological trait that has not only brought about the deaths of nearly four thousand refugees and members of the Adeptus Ministorum, but shows a worryingly egotistical streak in the command structure of the Marines Malevolent.

 

In a Galaxy where there is only war, where nightmares made flesh stalk humanity, the belief system of the Marines Malevolent is perhaps understandable. Those refugees were not fighting for their lives, so did they deserve to be "rescued"? Moral relativism plays a part here. I don't necessarily condone the Castigators' viewpoints - or those of the Marines Malevolent - by today's standards they'd likely be abhorrent - but they are a product of their environment.

 

Arguably the Marines Malevolent would've charged headlong into that refugee camp if those refugees had been resisting the Orks. I don't think it's easy to make moral judgements against them when the account is second-hand, through an Imperial Guard officer.

 

Arguably, do ordinary morals apply to the Space Marines? IT's a complex issue that would keep people arguing for a long time. In the Librarium, people have spent a long time arguing as to whether Space Marines can even be considered "human".

 

As for increased emphasis on genetic purity, I suppose so. The Dark Swords and Castigators pursue the same course of action from different starting points. The Castigators, out of a deep-rooted paranoia and insecurity, the Dark Swords, out of necessity.

 

Equally, the Castigators and the Black Templars arrive at the end-point of "Zealot" from differing start-points.

 

 

What you say makes sense; I am starting to get a clearer picture of the Dark Swords' Founding, incorporating several suggestions already made. An earlier Founding; Administratum protocol that may have called for all Loyalist Legions to be 'represented' at each Founding, but a practice that is gradually abandoned when the various flaws become better known (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, etc.), and politicking starts to cloud the issue (like, say, the Dark Angels being all insular and the Iron Hands being bum buddies with the AdMech). Eventually I'd imagine that later Foundings are almost entirely UM, with a handful of Chapters created from other stocks as a way of 'testing' them for viability or any number of things.

 

I don't think that you need to make assumptions about 'Administratum' protocol - it would likely be down to the High Lords of Terra - it's not necessarily something you need to justify. Or, rather, the earlier the founding the less you need to justify it, and the quicker you can get on with the important parts of your Chapter. But I agree that as time goes on, the Imperium is more likely to resort to "tried and tested" Ultramarines (et al) gene-seed. Though the thirteenth and twenty-first foundings show that the Adeptus Mechanicus just can't help itself! ;)

 

There's only a couple of problems I need to work out with an earlier Founding - not problems, per say, but issues I need to work out.

 

First, I need to figure out what to do with all the extra millennia of history I have to work with - which isn't bad, it just gives me more to think about. What has my Chapter been up to all this time? Specifically the Age of Apostasy, as I'm not quite sure how to handle that yet. As I understand it most Astartes stayed neutral during that dark time, which I can't imagine would sit well with the Dark Swords, what with having somewhat of a hero complex and all.

 

Second, advanced technology. Being a more senior Chapter, they'll have better priority, and maybe the opportunity to get cool stuff that more junior Chapters might not have. I need to be mindful of what they may have access to; I still want there to be limits on what they have. Otherwise it takes away from the feeling that they are fighting the odds every day because they can just pull out some arcane gear from the Armory to smite the opposition.

 

Lastly, seniority. I'vbe never thought of my Chapter as being a bunch of geezers, to put it lightly :P How are these younger Chapters going to feel when this older Chapter shows them up on the battlefield? The fact that they have deviant gene-seed, making them borderline mutants in the eyes of some, and unorthodox tactics that may not be necessarily drawn word for word from the Codex, is sure to rankle some people - but millennia of service to the Imperium might allay others. I've always imagined the Dark Swords as being somewhat outcast - a little reclusive, never staying in one place for long, having to prove their worth to others. If they have seniority that might take away from that theme a little bit.

 

Firstly - it's only an issue if you're spending your time on a detailed timeline. (And who would do that? ;)) The "few extra millennia" don't really that much. As for the Age of Apostasy, the neutrality of the Astartes did not preclude them from defending the Imperium against aliens, heretics, etc. Once the Confederation of Light rears its head you can have the Chapter join them, if you wish, but to a degree the Apostasy was an internal issue. At the time, the extent of Vandire's actions weren't entirely known. Also, I'm a little uncomfortable with you appending the "hero complex" - you might need to take some time to unpack this and see precisely where it comes from. The Codex description of Shrike is all well and good, but we don't know what Shrike feels and it's more important how your Chapter's developed such a viewpoint.

 

Secondly, whilst elder Chapters are more likely to have advanced technology, it's not a certainty. And they might have "arcane gear", but that's not necessarily going to save them!

 

Thirdly - I don't always think that seniority plays such a part. Obviously younger Chapters would pay their dues to older Chapters (at least, older Chapters they recognise) it's not necessarily a certainty. You need only look at Warriors of Ultramar, when Astador acknowledges the huge debt they owe Guilliman, but emphasises the importance of the Mortifactors doing things in their own way. Equally, I don't think many Chapters would say "We're twenty-fifth founding, because you're twenty-fourth we will defer to you." Each Chapter is its own powerful political and military entity, and that shouldn't be forgotten. Some later-founding Chapters may punch "above their weight" and get involved in issues with "senior" Chapters. Equally, a Chapter can arrive and fight without unfurling the banners that say "We're sons of Corax! Come see our genetic deficiencies!"

 

People don't tend to enjoy James Swallow's writing, but this extract from Red Fury shows an interesting relationship between the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers that I really liked.

 

 

I have considered making that duel on the ice a part of the training of the Dark Swords - or some concept similar to it. They say in that documentary that the notion of choice is central to Batman, and I wonder if I can't incorporate that concept into the Dark Swords. They should have the choice, not merely have it drilled into their mind via psycho therapy to unquestioningly serve the Emperor like many SMs tend to be written. They should be able to freely contemplate the choice between the good and evil inside all of them - between life and death, order and chaos, pleasure and conquest, and ultimately, meaningless, or hardship, pain and blood and tears, but ultimately, a sense of purpose, and devotion to ideals greater than oneself.

 

An option would be that their training is quite long and quite gruelling, and that at every stage the Sergeants offer the neophytes the 'choice' to continue or not. To emphasise that idea that a Space Marine must overcome the obstacles before him with supreme force of will and conviction - that they are not brainwashed mindlessly into His service, but that they choose to do what they must.

 

Whoops forgot about this. I just reviewed IA: Raven Guard, and I think it makes it fairly clear, unfortunately that the gene experiments were occurring as the fires of theHorus Heresy still burned. Only after did Corax split his Legion - so all RG Chapters now bear deformed gene-seed. Still, I wonder where I could go with a pure GS stockpile "Holy Grail" type of plot line.

 

I'd be interested if you could provide the relevant quotes for that - if they're limited there's no problem with IP.

 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. When it comes to idealism and practicality the latter usually wins out, and I think the Dark Swords would have the sense to see that. They would still try to patrol a wide stretch of the galaxy - but having a 'home sector(s)' to go back to for rest and refit makes sense. Now I'll have to think of a whole Home Sector instead of just one planet - this thing gets more complicated every day.

 

Not especially - a Sector is quite a small place for a fleet-based Chapter. To begin with, you need only generalise, to pick a general area of the Galaxy. Specifics can come later.

[Guest Mordray]

It is worth noting that the SM Codex (or was it the core rule book?) notes that while jump packs are ideally suited for fast moving assaults, jet packs are designed to supply a stable and mobile weapons platform.

 

I don't fully process the rules as the wargame aspect isn't of much interest to me but the concept seems pretty solid...

[CantonWC]

Well, Commissar, let me go ahead and take the time to say that it's going to be a little hard to answer your post without rambling or overlapping myself ^_^ So please bear with me as I slowly answer each point.

 

What strikes me as most interesting in a successor Chapter having to deal with debased gene-seed is their relationship to their Primarch; what precisely their view of Corax would be. I'd think that a Chapter with an ambiguous view towards their Primarch would be very interesting. Too many Chapters revere their Primarchs as demi-Gods, and a more pragmatic, morally-ambiguous slant would be much more 'real', and potentially far more interesting.

 

I missed this in my first go around, so i'm going to respond now. You're right, that's one reason among many I picked Corax and the Raven Guard. Most Chapters rever their Primarchs as virtual deities, which is to be expected. Corax, in my view, is potentially the odd man out. It's fun and scary, because I'm shooting off into unknown territory. I'm trying to formulate the psychology of a RG Successor based on relatively few fluff sources, so I might make some conjectures that might not jive with general consensus.

 

Well, every Chapter will have its own cult of belief. Different ideals and such will be promoted or denigrated. The Chaplains espouse the Cult of Belief, the Chapter promotes warriors that exemplify it - it's pretty much the most important section of any article, although people tend to overlook it. It's not the 'what', but the 'why' - and the 'why' differentiates your Chapter from every other. In an ideal world, anyway.

 

Well yeah, I do agree emphatically. I think you'll be happy to know I've been focusing more on thinking through their beliefs than combat doctrine, as I had planned. i like this post because it's forced me to ask myself some hard questions about what the Dark Swords really believe. I think that at the end of the day they can be extremely complicated and contradictory when it comes to their beliefs. there are potentially a lot of layers to them. To answer your questions I'm afraid I might have to reveal some of my "cards" early, i.e. not formally typed up and put in the first post ;)

 

I wouldn't; it's a little trite. I'm fully aware of the irony when I say this, but I can't help thinking that you're beginning to go too far with your obsession over the geneseed. Not their obsession, but yours. It's useful for your Chapter because you can play the whole "hero from humble circumstances having to overcome the obstacles in their way" angle - but the Raven Guard are still able to fight - so what if their melanchrome or their mucranoid don't work? It's not as if it was their secondary heart. I just think you need to look at it in the context of the entire Chapter - mythical pots of gold at the end of mythical rainbows aren't really adding that much to 40k. I don't think you need a foolish quest narrative - the 40k mythos could certainly do without another!

 

My obsession? ^_^ I don't get what you mean about irony though.

 

Well, let me try to explain myself. first off I thought about how an ambiguous view of Corax could produce, potentially, a pro-Corax and anti-Corax faction. And then going off of that, i thought about how a faction could develop that would be obssessed with repairing their gene-seed, to the point that they go off investigating any crazy half-baked rumor they hear about.

 

It's really just a germ of an idea though, so i'm keeping it on the back burner for now. If you think about it the Apothecarion is in a very strong position to influence the behavior of the Chapter - but that's something I could write a whole half page about, and I want keep the post length down ;) I certainly don't want a Holy Grail quest to dominate the Chapter though, that's no fun at all. It would basically be like a schism sort of event, where a contingent of Marines breaks off in search of said Holy Grail. I still want to try out one Big Event that would set the mood and tone for the Chapter, like the loss of the original home world that I wrote about before. Or maybe I'm going about it the wrong way - the Castigators don't really have a Big Event early on, do they?

 

The way I view the gene-seed (and I know I go back and forth on it alot), it's probably more damaged than just the loss of the Mucranoid and Betchers. Since the Imperial Fists are perfect, yet they have also lost two zygote cultures. I think that the damage manifests in the form of random mutations in a large percentage of the GS stock. Organs malfunction, stop working or perform less efficiently. Almost every marine would suffer from at least one defective or inefficient organ; "perfect" specimens are rare. i could be wrong in my interpretations though.

 

The 'redeeming qualities' comment amused me - In the 40k universe, arrogance and doctrinal hypocrisy aren't entirely things to be ashamed of! Something I've tried to encourage with the Castigators is to avoid taking the easy road. The DIY Community is full of wonderful shining and even "nice" Chapters, whose warriors are shining paragons of truth and justice.

 

This next section is kind of hard to answer. i'm quoting just a little bit to keep down post length. So, to start, do you see any redeeming factors in the Castigators? Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, seeing a tiny bit of good in the Castigators. Would they bomb the Ork camp like the Marines Malevolent?

 

About the "truth and justice thing".. well, I'm not going that far with the Dark Swords :P Make no mistake about that. Right now I'm just going with a gut feeling that they're very anti-xenos, so if that holds true in the final IA, they're going to hold strongly to a "manifest destiny" sort of ideal, that only humans have the right to inherit the galaxy, and they're going to hate xenos with every fiber of their being.

 

I've often wondered to myself if I'm moving too far away from the "grimdark" ethos - if I should be running with it or counter to it. The way I view them right now, they're certainly heroic "do gooders," or they try to be, but they're do gooders in a very harsh galaxy that doesn't really have any room for those ideals. I think part of the fun would be writing about them trying to reconcile their ideals with the bleak reality of the 41st millennium, getting more cynical through the years about their beliefs. Eventually they might accept that they're "everymen" just trying to do the right thing, but even the right thing might get them killed. It's inevitable that they'll kill civilians at one point for one reason or another - I have this neat idea of a 'Day of Penitence,' a holy day if you could call it that, where every marine endures corporal punishment for the deaths of innocents they have caused, whether or not it was necessary.

 

About the 'hero complex,' maybe that's going too far. Riffing off the political dichotomy of the Castigators, between moderates and zealots, I could have something similar. Idealism vs. pragmatism. The younger marines will be pushing to save the Hive World full of poor innocent civilians, but the older marines understand that saving the forge world is probably better in the long term.

 

I haven't really talked about this as much, but I consider "what is necessary, not what is wanted" a companion theme to "defying the odds." Mostly it's just been in a battlefield context though - the Dark Swords will fight "dirty" or "dishonorably" if they have to - guerrilla raids, nighttime attacks, feints and whatnot. Other Chapters might cry coward, but the Dark Swords will reply that personal pride and notions of honor are poor excuses for not using every means at one's disposal to achieve victory. The mission is the most important thing - serving the Emperor is the most important thing, and if that means one must get his hands "dirty," well tough luck. It's not about what you want, it's about what the Emperor wants.

 

Of course I eventually got around to thinking seriously about "what is necessary" really means when applied to the Chapter as a whole, and obviously it lands the Darks Swords into some sticky territory. Because doing what is necessary is not the same as doing the right thing :devil: If that Hive World is full of Chaos cultists, there's probably no time to separate the innocents from the deviants - better do what is necessary and burn the whole thing down.

 

Arguably, do ordinary morals apply to the Space Marines? IT's a complex issue that would keep people arguing for a long time. In the Librarium, people have spent a long time arguing as to whether Space Marines can even be considered "human".

 

I think the most we can agree on is that Marines are very human in the sense that they have such varying beliefs. Some will hold beliefs that more or less align with conventional attitudes about morality; others won't give a toss. Still others will adhere strictly to a system of morals that would seem highly immoral to us. So maybe it's incorrect to ask if ordinary morals apply to a Marine, because every Chapter, every individual Marine will have differing attitudes about morality and how it applies to them. At the moment, I would say that, at the least, the Dark Swords would oblige with a cursory inspection of 100 men, among which there are maybe 10 heretics, before deciding whether or not to kill them all :lol:

 

Or, rather, the earlier the founding the less you need to justify it, and the quicker you can get on with the important parts of your Chapter.

 

Truth be told, I am getting a little tired of this thread. I more or less have an idea of where I want the Chapter to go, and it's only a matter of time before the only way forward is to write the IA - and then revise it over and over, adding in new stuff as I go. I'm somewhat keen on the idea of giving them an actual coat of arms, with the crest, shield and everything. I also plan an "Insider Astartes" in the long term, which would be a "fluff dump" giving an insider's view of the Chapter - because outsiders will only know so much about them.

 

Equally, a Chapter can arrive and fight without unfurling the banners that say "We're sons of Corax! Come see our genetic deficiencies!"

 

That's an interesting way to put it :lol: Would the Dark Swords unfurl their banners at opportune moments? I feel that they would probably get in the way, and they're not looking to plant banners into the ground and everything - it's not their thing, and it's not necessary. Probably Landspeeders and Dreads - banners fluttering in the wind on a Landspeeder would look bad@ss. But not line troops.

 

People don't tend to enjoy James Swallow's writing, but this extract from Red Fury shows an interesting relationship between the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers that I really liked.

 

That was... interesting. Though I think it's worth noting that it's the Flesh Tearers, who seem to be notorious for pushing the boundaries of accepted norms for even Space Marines. And the writing was horrendous (I would put smilies here but I've reached my limit)

 

An option would be that their training is quite long and quite gruelling, and that at every stage the Sergeants offer the neophytes the 'choice' to continue or not. To emphasise that idea that a Space Marine must overcome the obstacles before him with supreme force of will and conviction - that they are not brainwashed mindlessly into His service, but that they choose to do what they must.

 

That was more or less exactly what I had in mind - thanks! I pretty much gave up on the idea of making the training especially hardcore, because every other Chapter has ridiculous training, so there's no point in outdoing them; the little bit of symbolism sets it apart. that a free man, with the right to choose to for himself, will fight harder than a man who fights because it's been indoctrinated into him, because he genuinely believes in what he is doing. I need to be careful though, free thinking is dangerous in the Imperium.

 

I'd be interested if you could provide the relevant quotes for that - if they're limited there's no problem with IP.

 

Sure thing. According to the RG IA, after the disaster at Istvaan, "...Corax returned to Deliverance with orders to rebuild [his Legion] as quickly as possible. It was a bleak time for the Primarch of the Raven Guard; the Imperium was teetering on the brink of collapse and desperately needed brave warriors, but he had none to give."

 

After detailing the gene experiments, it goes on to say that "years passed, and the galaxy burned with war. Corax and his band of warriors gradually rebuilt their Legion and played parts when they could." So evidently the Heresy was still going on.

 

After that, it says that " Following the Heresy, Roboute Guilliman... became the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces, and one of [his] first edicts... was that the Space Marine Legions be split into smaller units known as Chapters."

 

Now I admit that it doesn't say right out that those events happened in that order, but it's pretty heavily implied.

 

Not especially - a Sector is quite a small place for a fleet-based Chapter. To begin with, you need only generalise, to pick a general area of the Galaxy. Specifics can come later.

 

I've already got two planets, a forge world and a hive world, so I'm right on schedule, heh. i think that if I follow through with an "Eldar destroys home world" Big Event, their former home world can become a "graveyard planet," where all the fallen brothers of the Chapter are buried. Makes for a neat touch. How big is a Sector anyway? I was under the impression that it contains at least a few dozen systems of value.

 

Updated and finished!

[CantonWC]

I’ve been doing a little bit of thinking about the beliefs of the Dark Swords, and I thought I might put down what I had so far, if anyone wanted to comment on them.

 

Suffice to say, it’s not easy at all to come up with beliefs for these guys! I’m starting to wonder to myself if it’s possible to really come up with a unified doctrine that would satisfy all the Dark Swords. The potential for varied beliefs even from one individual to another is very strong. I’ll just be throwing out stuff for anyone to pick apart if they wish – a lot of it will probably conflict, and maybe all of it could apply to the Dark Swords in some way.

 

Firstly, fallibility. I think this would be central to the DS. Simply put, everything is fallible – this is no more apparent than in their imperfect gene-seed. This I think would wake them up to the realization that nothing is perfect or infallible. Every marine, regardless of how powerful he is, regardless of the fact that he is superior to all of humanity, can still feel temptation, pride, jealousy, all the things that might inspire marines to turn astray. Corax wasn’t perfect - he may have made the wrong decision to order the gene experiments. I don’t think the DS would ever know for sure, so there’ll always be debates about that. Fully half of the Space Marine Legions and Primarchs turned away from the Emperor. The Emperor himself was not infallible – if he had made some better decisions along the way he might not have lost his sons to Chaos.

 

This belief can extend to pretty much anything really. Humanity is weak, easily corruptible and lacking the discipline and strength mind to resist the depredations of the mutant, the heretic and the alien. Cities with an established history of thousands of years can be destroyed in an instant through orbital cleansing. Entire worlds existing for thousands or millions of years can be wiped clean overnight by Orks or Tyranids. Nothing is permanent or unchanging.

 

How do the DS interpret this? Well, one way is to say “screw it” and defy the odds. This is more or less how I currently view my Chapter. Despite the dire state of things in their world they still cling stubbornly to the belief that things can change for the better. DS are taught to love humanity despite their many faults – because what is the purpose of the Space Marines, the reason for their creation, if not to defend humanity?

 

The pendulum can swing the other way – I can see some DS taking the whole fallibility thing to an extreme. They’ll see weakness everywhere and probably be inclined to punish it, not unlike the Iron Hands.

 

Manifest Destiny: the Dark Swords hold very strongly to the idea of a “manifest destiny.” After all, what was the purpose of the Great Crusade if not to free humanity from the yoke of the daemon and alien and unite all of humanity under the Emperor? It is humanity, and humanity alone that has the right to inherit the stars. Anyone who gets in the way, who think they can coexist peacefully with humans or hold their own domains or enslave humans must be exterminated with extreme prejudice, their cities torn down and their entire blasphemous race put to the sword.

 

The Dark Swords HATE the Eldar. I think the first action of the Dark Swords will be a campaign against some minor Craftworld. They successfully push the Eldar out of a sector, and in revenge the Eldar launch a sneak attack on the home world and render it lifeless. In my short time browsing these forums, I don’t think I’ve seen any Chapter that had Eldar as an “arch-enemy.” I think it would be fun to explore an adversarial relationship between the two groups. The Eldar are arrogant, they regard humans as little more than primitive animals. That’s sure to rankle the Swords. They are few in number, probably only rarely encountered, but their technology is superior to that of the Marines. I think that would be a good way to emphasize the Chapter themes – they can face a foe that has the advantage in battlefield experience (most likely) and technology and still defeat them through sheer grit and determination. I think in a way, the Eldar are controlled by fate. Their Farseers have to constantly check their runes to determine what the best course of action will be. The Dark Swords say no to that. They won’t submit to fate, they make their own. They may have degraded gene-seed; that doesn’t matter, that won’t stop them from doing the Emperor’s work.

 

Post your thoughts, these ideas are still rather undeveloped, and I need people to ask the hard questions to help jog my brain into action (Commissar Molotov? :P )

[CantonWC]

I did some thinking today while I eating brunch (well, they call it brunch anyway, you can’t really be sure with university food :D ) and I thought I might sketch out a rough set of ideological positions for the Dark Swords, if anyone wants to comment or make suggestions.

 

Not that I think these would necessarily constitute “factions” within the Dark Swords. They can just as easily be spectrums of beliefs, and each Dark Sword would lean more toward one or the other. Nor do I think that some of these beliefs are mutually exclusive. Each Dark Sword is free to make up his own mind about what he believes, so some marines might be in agreement over one issue and disagree on another.

 

Optimist vs. Pessimist

 

Optimists are going to love humanity, despite its flaws. They’re sort of like the half-full position. They believe it’s the purpose of the Space Marines to defend humanity. That’s not to say that “loving humanity” means they’re goody-two-shoes, however. Far from it. Humanity is beset on all sides by the alien, the mutant, and the heretic, and it’s their duty to exterminate them.

 

That being said, they’re never going to be happy when in the course of their duty they end up causing collateral damage. They’ll do their job, and they’ll do it without question when ordered to, but they’ll always feel pain when they end up hurting innocents. Hence the Day of Penitence. Again, maybe my own wishful thinking, but I like to think that the Dark Swords still have some spark of humanity that can’t be wiped away or suppressed by psycho-indoctrination, or that they even choose not to suppress. Because, it’s easy to make choices if there are no consequences, or if the consequences don’t mean anything to you. Look at the Chaos Marines, they make choices without any regard for the consequences. Without that humanity there’s nothing to separate the Dark Swords from the enemies they fight. I think they will make a point of learning from their own Primarch’s actions. He maimed his sons to save the Legion, but he personally owned up to his transgressions. The Dark Swords will always be ready to own up to the consequences of their actions.

 

Pessimists are, well, the opposite. They’re the half-empty position, inclined to see weakness everywhere. I don’t have much for them right now.

 

Idealist vs. Pragmatist

 

This is closely related to the above; I’m just putting this down again for the sake of completeness. Idealists are going to be the ones with the hero complex; saving the innocent and all that. Pragmatists are going to prioritize; because they know they can’t save everyone. Save the important worlds, save the largest number of people. Sacrifice the few to save the greater whole.

 

Emperor-centric vs. Not… Emperor-centric

 

It’s been stated in the IA that the RG don’t really worship the Emperor with the same fervor as some of the other Chapters. So I decided to explore this a little bit.

 

All Dark Swords acknowledge the Emperor as their lord and master, the rightful ruler of mankind – no doubt about that. They would praise and revere him, and avidly study any texts or stratagems he might have written down, but maybe they don’t worship him. I’ve wondered to myself if the RG + successors might be candidates for still clinging to the old beliefs of the Imperial Truth (?), if that still even exists. Logic and reason over religion and superstition. Some might not pray to him at all, because that’s not what he would have wanted. Some might still offer their prayers. I think as a by-product of their need to overcome their limitations they might adopt self-reliance as a core belief. The Emperor can’t be there to save you or give you guidance all the time. Eventually you need to learn to be strong on your own.

 

I’m pretty sure I had one other thing to write about, but I can’t really remember it right now. Let me know what you guys think.

[CantonWC]

Did some more thinking today so I’m jotting it down:

 

Humility

 

this is sort of a given, but I’m putting it down anyway. The realization of the Dark Swords’ own imperfection would likely lead them to be a little less judgmental and less inclined to look down on humans and whatnot – largely eliminating any possibility, I think, that they would develop an Iron Hands mindset. Judge not others lest ye be judged and all. This more humble attitude extends to the battlefield as well. There’s going to be a heavy emphasis on teamwork and esprit de corps. Personal heroics are frowned upon. The mission, the Chapter, the Emperor are far more important than the ambitions and egos of any one man. For similar reasons there should not be any markings whatsoever that denote rank. They don’t want to elevate any one man above anyone else – even if they be one of the fearsome Commandos of the 1st Company. There are practical considerations of course – the Dark Swords don’t want to give any enemy a way to distinguish between the leaders and the regulars.

 

Knowledge

 

The Dark Swords love knowledge. Not just knowledge willy nilly, because some knowledge is far too dangerous to be meddled with, and I think the Dark Swords would be smart enough to realize that. In the RG IA, it mentions how their sermons are like post-battle debriefings, where they analyze and dissect all the data they acquired and compile the information for future generations of RG. I can see the Dark Swords eventually compiling a huge library filled with battle meditations penned by previous generations of warriors; a treasure trove of tactical knowledge and a tangible link to their past. Not only that, I’d think they’d want to collect treatises of virtually any commander of renown, human or Space Marine; their famous battles, what strategies they employed or could have employed. In the IA for the Codex Astartes it mentions how the Codex is apparently a ‘living document’ that has been added to over the years, containing “the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.” I don’t know if that’s true for all Chapters, but I guess the Dark Swords won’t be breaking any rules ;)

 

Aside from straight tactical knowledge, they’ll want to collect knowledge on the enemies they face, for knowing the enemy is the counterpart to knowing yourself. Chaos will be rather tricky, due its seductive and corrupting nature, but xenos races should be relatively free of such controversy. Enemy tactics, weapons, even biology/anatomy (the better to kill or affect them with chemical/biological weapons :lol: ). If a particular foe is long-lived and has the capacity to trouble the Chapter over many years (such as the Chaos Marines and the Eldar), individual bios, examinations of known wargear, tactics, quirks and preferences, psychological profiles may all be drawn up, the better to assess weaknesses. Even in the midst of a protracted campaign great care will be undertaken by the Librarians/scribes to profile particularly distinguished enemy commanders, troop numbers and disposition, favored strategies and logistics. These will be used by the commanding officer to undermine the enemy in any way he possibly can, especially through psychological means, such as inspiring mutiny in the ranks or pitting enemy commanders against one another.

 

When a particularly troublesome enemy commander or xenos race is finally exterminated, its data files will be preserved in the library as a sort of ‘trophy’ commemorating the deed.

 

The Apothecarion

 

I talked about this very briefly before so I want to go back and expand on it. I always thought that the Apothecary sort of got the ‘shaft’ when it came to the Chapter specialists – because it’s usually the Chaplains and Librarians who are on the battlefield doing all the flashy stuff, sometimes even the Techmarines too. So, let’s remedy that. Guardians of purity and the Chapter’s very future, check. How about their own Cult? I can see them having their own beliefs differing from the creed taught by the Chaplains. Something along the lines of the purity of flesh, which is sure to tick off the Chaplains and Techmarines, as the Techmarines are the exact opposites of the Apothecaries. And it would also run counter to the belief that nothing is perfect; perfection is not a goal to be attained, but something to aspire to. Still, their position as guardians of the gene-seed might buy them a little more leeway with regard to what they do in their spare time. Above all their quest would be to repair the gene-seed of the Chapter.

 

I’ve read something somewhere about a sect of the Adeptus Mechanicus that studies/venerates organics as much as or more than machines; does anyone know anything of them? I think it would be neat to have some sort of link to them, maybe even the Apothecaries train with them much like the Techmarines do with their counterparts.

 

On the battlefield: no more passively sitting around healing brother marines or harvesting the gene-seed of the fallen. I want them to take up a more active role. Assuming that medical knowledge in the 40k universe hasn’t been completely obliterated by superstition, I can see the Apothecaries attaining greater knowledge of biotechnology than Apothecaries in other Chapters as a byproduct of their general obsession with fixing the gene-seed. This can be put to use developing chemical weapons and other things I can’t think of at the moment: hallucinogens to alter the perceptions of the enemy, make them more vulnerable to fear and despair; sedatives that can harmlessly knock out enemies (although I realize that’s not the point of the Astartes :lol: ); toxins that attack various parts of the body. The Hellfire bolt was apparently designed in reaction to the coming of the Tyranids, so maybe in the early years of the Chapter the Apothecaries will design a crude analog and predecessor to the Hellfire; a vial of poison instead of acid.

 

As for ‘modding’ Marines with potent chemicals and stims, I think that’s going a bit too far; that’s crossing into Fabius Bile territory, and the Chapter Master would forbid it. Still, that might not stop some of the more curious Apothecaries…

 

Now, despite the fact they’re the guardians of genetic purity and all, there might still be an inclination for radical behavior. The xeno is disgusting and blasphemous, but the Apothecaries might still have an unhealthy… interest, in how their genetic code works, how their bodies function.

 

Take the Orkz for example. They are the consummate survivor race; their capacity for war is encoded into their very genes. That’s got to be interesting to the Apothecaries. Kroot are another. I think the prospect of Kroot devouring Space Marines to obtain the power of the gene-seed would be especially repulsive to the Dark Swords and inspire a particularly zealous hatred of the creatures. But the Apothecaries would want to learn how they can reproduce positive gene traits from the things they eat. Finally the Tyranids, the ultimate masters of bio-engineering. That’s got to send the Apothecaries foaming at the mouth.

 

Thoughts?

[Commissar Molotov]

(Commissar Molotov? :D )

 

I'll be posting here today or tomorrow - it's a bit of a monster post though...