Deploying from Drop Pods

[Playa]

Hey,

 

measuring the two inches from the edge of the assault ramp when disembarking from a Land Raider

 

Moving a LR and subsequently opening the ramp to measure Disembarkation is cheating.

The player will have effectively moved it more than the legal distance by doing so.

 

would it then be permissable to measure from the doors (petals) of the drop pod?

 

The idea that a Pod's doors catapult Infantry away from its hull is wishful thinking.

An access cover blown clear with explosive bolts isn't part of anything's "hull".

 

A gangplank isn't part of a ship's hull.

A muzzle isn't part of a Vindi's hull.

A claw isn't part of a Defiler's hull.

 

So, the root problem is that wishful thinking is 99% wishful . . .

 

Playa

[nighthawks]

the problem is not in the understanding of the word "hull" - It seems that most people agree about the reading with regard to land raiders and the like. the problem with the pods is that the doors are the bulk of the vehicle, and to some, muddy the interpretation of hull.

 

most posters, and myself, seem to agree that the hull does not include the doors/ramps of the pod, and that the "hull" is roughly the hing of the doors or a line drawn from tip to tip of the wings (overhead view).

 

btw - my read on models occupying the same space is purely 2D - bases are everything. with regard to the pod, as the ramps/doors aren't hull this doesn't pose a problem with models being placed on them.

[Democratus]

Also, what mechanic are you using to make your models hover in mid air? Cause as I see it, your models ARE occupying the same space, at the least where the base and the hull meet, and the force from the hull on the top of the vehicle is opposing the gravity the model is exerting.

 

No. Your model is above the tank. Electormagnetic forces between the molecules of the base and the molecules of the vehicle keep it suspended well above the tank.

 

Also, models fill their base vertically, only in ruins with multiple defined levels can a model occupy the same vertical space as another model.

 

I'd like to see a page reference for this one, as I don't recal reading this in the BRB.

 

Edit: forgot the OT stuff hehe. If you decide the petals do count for deployment purposes but they are not part of the hull, what part are they?

 

And excellent question. If they aren't the hull are they decorative elements like antennae or banners? Things are very unclear on this.

 

Also, as for a proof that you can not change models, first the rules are permisive and dont say you can, therefore you cant.

 

GW specifically talks about changing models in the vehicles firing section - where it shows how to move weapons in their mounts to point at enemy models. As for the "permissive" rule set, it never gives permission to use a tape measure. So I suppose you can't actually know the distance between models without breaking the rules.

 

Second, your defiler is 6.5 inches away from the enemy, you extend the flexile claw 2 inches and now the target is only 4.5 inches away and you can charge them--and that doesnt work.

 

This is perfectly legal, by RAW. However I've never been to a venue that didn't house-rule against it. The BRB tells us that you measure distance to/from a defiler from "it's legs and other limbs". Nowhere does it state that the limbs must be stationary, just like it doesn't require a sponson or turret be glued in place (though it acknowledges that this can be done).

 

Third, you could smash your model, sprinkle the board with it, and prevent your enemy models from movement in the movement phase within 1 inch of the spread out debris. Extreme examples often illustrate a point better than mundane examples, but both the defiler (mundane) and smashed vehicle (extreme) work on the same principle.

 

A smashed and sprinkled vehicle is no longer a model. It is several. You would either have to pay the price for dozens of the model and demonstrate where your sponsons/weapons/eyes were or field them as "counts as". Either way it would be quite expensive to put several plastic shards down as 50 land raiders.

[newach]

I emailed Gamesworkshop and they said the doors do not count as the hull

[nighthawks]

Keep it on topic, brothers.

 

newach - that agrees with the majority opinion, adds some clout though nothing official.

[DevianID]

I'd like to see a page reference for this one, as I don't recal reading this in the BRB

 

Dont have book handy, but check ruins and multiple levels, where it details vertical movement and how models interact with one another when vertically above/below each other. That is one of the only places that details vertical movement, which is what placing a model on top of a land raider requires, and since a land raider is not a ruin with multiple levels or indeed any kind of terrain, this vertical movement is not allowed. Basicly, if you were allowed to put a model on top of a land raider, you would also be allowed to have the same model move vertically to hover in mid air 6 inches above the table safe from assault.

 

IIRC there is another section that details when moving over terrain that is elevated (thus single level and no model stacking), aka a ridge, you move the same distance vertically as horizontally, thus if a cliff was 8 inches tall you could not climb it with a 6 inch move model, but you could get atop/over a 4 inch tall box. I know this was in 4th edition, and I think it is in 5th somewhere, but regardless it only applied to terrain, thus no moving over models, unless you have the jetpack/jetbike special rule.

 

GW specifically talks about changing models in the vehicles firing section - where it shows how to move weapons in their mounts to point at enemy models.

This is perfectly legal, by RAW. However I've never been to a venue that didn't house-rule against it. The BRB tells us that you measure distance to/from a defiler from "it's legs and other limbs". Nowhere does it state that the limbs must be stationary, just like it doesn't require a sponson or turret be glued in place (though it acknowledges that this can be done).

 

I see what you are saying, in that you can move weapons in the shooting phase... however, weapons do not count as vehicle hull. You are also arguing that you may move your vehicles hull, aka defiler's claw. If you rearrange your vehicles hull, however, is it the same model that it was before? No... and like I said earlier changing models in the middle of the game is not permissable. If you dont accept this explaination, then what about the fact that by moving the vehicles hull constitutes movement (obviously) and thus if you extend a claw 2 inches at the end of a 6 inch move, you have now moved the hull 8 inches--thus are cheating. Same goes for a raider that moves 12 inches, then exdends part of the hull another inch to disembark from--the raider has now moved 13 inches.

 

And finally, when you put the drop pod on the table, it is immobile. If you then lower some doors (which the opponent is stating count as part of the model so he can disembark the extra 6 or so inches from them), the model has moved. Thus, you have just made a move in an immobilized model. Sounds like cheating to me. Which is why I tell my opponents who may be a problem, while the pod is off the table, please show me how your pods are modeled, as there can be no raising/lowering/otherwise moving the model after the fact, and if any part of a petal is off the table or within 1 inch of the enemy on a deepstrike hit, becomes a deepstrike mishap.

[Race Bannon]

And finally, when you put the drop pod on the table, it is immobile. If you then lower some doors (which the opponent is stating count as part of the model so he can disembark the extra 6 or so inches from them), the model has moved. Thus, you have just made a move in an immobilized model. Sounds like cheating to me. Which is why I tell my opponents who may be a problem, while the pod is off the table, please show me how your pods are modeled, as there can be no raising/lowering/otherwise moving the model after the fact, and if any part of a petal is off the table or within 1 inch of the enemy on a deepstrike hit, becomes a deepstrike mishap.

 

Hmmm! Not bad.

[Morticon]

And finally, when you put the drop pod on the table, it is immobile. If you then lower some doors (which the opponent is stating count as part of the model so he can disembark the extra 6 or so inches from them), the model has moved. Thus, you have just made a move in an immobilized model. Sounds like cheating to me. Which is why I tell my opponents who may be a problem, while the pod is off the table, please show me how your pods are modeled, as there can be no raising/lowering/otherwise moving the model after the fact, and if any part of a petal is off the table or within 1 inch of the enemy on a deepstrike hit, becomes a deepstrike mishap.

 

Hmmm! Not bad.

 

Not bad maybe - but not correct by rules. Even if you use the petals as your point of measurement 1" from an enemy does not make a deepstrike mishap. (Off table -yes).

 

 

I assume however the point you're making is that if you want to use the hull doors as anything else than decoration then you should first position the model in its deepstrike location with the doors down, (ie: its final shape) and then roll scatter etc?? Yeah?

 

I think thats a perfectly fair "compromise" for those wanting to use the hull doors as the measuring point.

[Son of Corax]

Don't know if this is 100% correct (don't have the book right now) but if I remmember correctly, Drop Pods Land. The troops inside must immediatly disembark. The pod is then treated as an immobalised, open-topped vehicle.

 

If this is right (and more than likely it's not) then the troops must disembark from the hull (as per transport rules) not pedals (as per open-topped rules).

 

My $0.02

[Morticon]

Don't know if this is 100% correct (don't have the book right now) but if I remmember correctly, Drop Pods Land. The troops inside must immediatly disembark. The pod is then treated as an immobalised, open-topped vehicle.

 

If this is right (and more than likely it's not) then the troops must disembark from the hull (as per transport rules) not pedals (as per open-topped rules).

 

My $0.02

 

Son, I think you missed the argument of people that claim the petals are the hull.

[Legatus]

Could you open the ramp doors on the sides and the back of a rhino and then treat them as part of the hull and measure distances from there? If a chaos rhino wanted to fire it's combi melta/plasmagun/flamer at a unit on its flank, but the unit was just barely out of range. Could the chaos rhino then pop the door on that side open and gain the necessary 1-2 extra inches to hit the unit? Perhaps the rhino should do that during the movement phase in advance, I guess.

[Steelmage99]

And don't forget the Ork Battlewagon with an extra long Boarding Plank. Hell, I'll customize the sidedoors to swing out 6" to either side. 15" armour 14 movable wall, baby! My Ork Big Mek gives it three thumbs up (he has an extra one in a jar. You know, to hit with the hammer so it doesn't hurt) and thinks it's Luverly. :ph34r:

[Scott-S6]

As much as I hate the idea of measuring from the petals I think you have to.

 

The problem is, if you position the drop-pod in a valid location (i.e. moved just far enough to avoid enemy units/terrain) then you can't open the doors. If you move it far enough that the doors can open but deploy from the hull then you are not in the position that you should be in. (further away from the terrain/enemy unit, which could be good or bad depending).

 

Personally, I'm cutting the doors off to kill this problem - if anyone asks then they blow off on landing.

[Hells Guardian]

But if your deployment leaves you on one of the drop pods doors does it count as difficult terrain?

[DevianID]

Not bad maybe - but not correct by rules. Even if you use the petals as your point of measurement 1" from an enemy does not make a deepstrike mishap. (Off table -yes).

 

If you place your model within 1 inch of an enemy it is a deepstrike mishap, no? Remember I am not talking about scattering onto the enemy (because the drop pod will reduce the scatter as necessary), I am talking about getting a direct hit, so scatter reduction will do nothing.

 

Could the chaos rhino then pop the door on that side open and gain the necessary 1-2 extra inches to hit the unit?

 

I believe that you can not change models in the middle of the game. Some others state that 'moveable' parts on a model dont count as changing the model, thus can be moved freely (as long as no other rule is violated). However, regardless of which interpretation you believe if you move parts of a vehicle, it counts as moving the vehicle. Thus, if you move a vehicle 12 inches, then move the ramp on the vehicle 1 inch, that ramp has moved 13 inches in the turn--more than the vehicle can move and still disembark troops. So either way, ramps cant be used to push disembarking models farther than the vehicle can move.

 

Edit: missed a post

But if your deployment leaves you on one of the drop pods doors does it count as difficult terrain?

If you play the doors count as hull then you can never have a model on top of them. If you play that the doors dont count and are just decoration then you would use the underlying terrain to determine if the petals are difficult or not.

[Bannus]

The illustrations in the BRB have as much authority as does the wording.

 

In all of the illustrations, the ramps are never considered when showing measured distances.

 

While not absolutely conclusive, it should be enough to consider them as "decorative" for these purposes until we get a conclusive answer from GW themselves.

 

Look at the illustration on page 3 - the distance to the open-topped vehicle is measured to the hull and not the dozer blade - a significant piece of wargear - especially compared to a ramp. if it doesn't count - then a ramp probably doesn't either.

[lunchb0x]

Sorry to bring up a potentially old topic...I ran into something rather interesting at a tournament. I measure from the actual pod it's self when dropping my troops out, though I did not know about the open topped bit...makes one think, the issue was about the 1" inch rule of moving next to enemy models and what not....

 

If I have my drop pod with "petals" open, and I measure from the hull for deployment, are the petals still not apart of the model? So there for block the movement of my opponent?

 

 

On a side note :

 

I know rhino doors where mentioned in previous posts as "decorative" and not counting, but when they are lowered they do not exceed the 2" rule at all, so why wouldn't they count as a portion of a model? Is it not a part of the model?

 

The bit about "changing" a model once its on the table comments, so I could never turn the turret of my tank?

[nighthawks]

1 - threadomancy, don't do it.

 

2 - all of the questions you ask are covered in this topic, if not answered. the petals are typically seen as decorative, open or closed, and should not be selectively opened to exploit TLOS. the hull is the pentagonal shape. exatly where this shape should be measured from is debateable.

 

2a - Rhino doors, etc... may fit within 2" of the hull when open, but would never count as an addition to the hull, as they would then add their length to the disembarkation bubble. I challenge anyone to argue that this would be fair.

 

3 - changing a model refers to modifying its footprint or selectively moving those parts designed to be non-static (such as the DP petals and tank turrets) in order to exploit LOS actievly on the tabletop. it's much more subtle and nuanced with regard to tanks and turrets, that I'll give you.