Tac Squad Size

[maturin]

I've been playing against a lot of Tyranid MC's, Chaos Dreads, and the like recently, and have come to see that the powerfists in my tac squads are really the only effective weapon against these units when it comes to CC. So I questioned my tac squad composition - instead of 1 10-man tac squad with 1 PF, would it make more sense to have 2 5-man tac squads with 2 PF's?

 

True, you lose some durability and the free special/heavy weapons, but you double your CC killy-power. More if you are able to position the squads with one taking a charge, then the other counter-charging. Maneuvering these units would take some skill to use correctly, of course.

 

The army list I run uses a 5-assault termie (TH/SS) squad in a LRC as its main assault focus, and I've been supporting them with 2 tac squads in rhinos. (That's why these squads always find themselves locked in CC). I can understand where 10-man squads with free special/heavy weapons have their place. Are 5-man squads workable as well as close combat/assault squads? I'm considering adding some combi meltas or flamers if necessary, for that extra oomph...

[Redbaron997]

Well thats an easy KP for your enemy, and you only have 5 Albative wounds for you Sarg.

 

Instead try out Combat squads. Do 5 Guys with a PF/ and eithier a Flamer or Melta Gun in a Razorback. And the other 5 sittin back somewhere with a cheap Missile Launcher.

[maturin]

I understand that full 10-man tac squads offer versatility, as you point out, redbaron998. But I'm looking for the best squad layout to get up close and personal quickly, with the most killy-ness possible (I haven't mastered Warp Angel's K1/K2 lingo yet). I'd point out that combat squads give you the same number of KP's to the enemy as 2 separate units of equal manpower.

 

To put it another way, you could take a 10-man squad with 1 sarge and a PF for 195 points, giving you 9 ablative wounds and 2 PF attacks base. Or you could take 2 5-man squads with 2 sarges and 2 PF's for 230 points, giving you 8 ablative wounds and 4 PF attacks base (assuming you get them both into combat).

 

Cons - more transport cost (if you choose to transport them), more vulnerable to shooting (unless you transport them), lack of special/heavy weapons, difficulty in getting the squads into close combat on the same turn. Kill points.

 

Pros - if I lose the battle, both squads have to fail their morale checks before the enemy can sweeping advance. Next turn the other squad can charge back in. And 2 powerfists in what's essentially a 10-man squad.

 

(I tend to find that my special weapons go unused, as the squads pop out of their rhino and then charge/are charged. So essentially I'm thinking of trading them out for another powerfist...)

[Warp Angel]

Heh, I created a Lingo.

 

I understand that full 10-man tac squads offer versatility, as you point out, redbaron998. But I'm looking for the best squad layout to get up close and personal quickly, with the most killy-ness possible (I haven't mastered Warp Angel's K1/K2 lingo yet). I'd point out that combat squads give you the same number of KP's to the enemy as 2 separate units of equal manpower.

 

To put it another way, you could take a 10-man squad with 1 sarge and a PF for 195 points, giving you 9 ablative wounds and 2 PF attacks base. Or you could take 2 5-man squads with 2 sarges and 2 PF's for 230 points, giving you 8 ablative wounds and 4 PF attacks base (assuming you get them both into combat).

 

Cons - more transport cost (if you choose to transport them), more vulnerable to shooting (unless you transport them), lack of special/heavy weapons, difficulty in getting the squads into close combat on the same turn. Kill points.

 

Pros - if I lose the battle, both squads have to fail their morale checks before the enemy can sweeping advance. Next turn the other squad can charge back in. And 2 powerfists in what's essentially a 10-man squad.

 

(I tend to find that my special weapons go unused, as the squads pop out of their rhino and then charge/are charged. So essentially I'm thinking of trading them out for another powerfist...)

 

K1 = How much it can kill

K2 = Time to get to killing potential

D1 = How hard it is to kill

D2 = How long it takes to kill

S = Situational/Subjective modifier.

 

5 Man squads are inherently less effective in a lot of ways. K1 goes down (number of shots or number of attacks). K2 stays the same. D1 stays the same, but D2 drops due to reduced wounds. S drops because you lose the option to combat squad, field special or heavy weapons. 5 man squads of Tactical marines from C:SM just don't make a lot of sense.

 

Additionally, I have to question the wisdom of trying to turn a tactical squad into a hand to hand squad. You're better off taking Vanguard (which come in variable squad size) for the 35 point premium at 5 men. Every man is a sergeant equivalent, meaning the other 4 guys are 50% and 100% more effective in hand to hand (charge and subsequent turns respectively), while sarge doesn't change. Your tactics describe above don't even need to change.

 

3x 5 man tactical squads with PF/bolt pistol sergeant nets you 345 points and 15 Marines, 6 PF attacks and 12 base attacks when not charging, 9 and 24 when charging.

 

3x 5 man sternguard squads with PF/bolt pistol sergeant nets you 450 points and 15 Marines, 6 PF attacks and 24 base attacks when not charging, 9 and 36 when charging.

 

Those 105 points give you vastly superior hand to hand capability, and vastly better shooting (K1 goes up), though without Pedro, S lowers or is at best a wash. With Pedro, S goes way up.

 

Alternately, you can play "counts as" Spacewolves or Black Templars, where you have more CC options in a basic tactical squad equivalent. I don't think Vanilla Marines have any business using Tacticals as primary hand to hand units. It's not what they're good at.

 

My opinion anyway. Hope it at least provides you with food for thought.

[maturin]

Hmmm - I hadn't thought of trying to fit in veterans into my list, as points are tight. But aren't they always? I like the thought of Vanguard vets - I'll have to do some thinking on this. Thanks for the replies guys! Food for thought indeed.

[Frosty the Pyro]

yeah, if you just want fist transport, grab a comand squad, you can put fists on all 4 of them, and they have feal no pain.

[Entry1]

I really don't think the problem lies in the TAC Squad per se...Its the battle their fgithing. The problem is they are an average unit fighting a unit that specializes in hand to hand. Your going to lose 9/10 if you fight them at their own game. Your best bet would be sticking to your 10 man Tac Squads and try and score some special/heavy weapon hits to try and soften/finish them. If you manage to charge 2 five man squads w/PF's into a Tyrant/Guard those six PF aren't going to finish the job IMHO.

 

I think our best bet is trying to diversify our troops in the sense that were taking advantage of hybrid Troop lists of either Bikes/Sternguard supporting our Tac Squads. Granted you may have to adjust your HQ choice but in the long run it will work out for the best.

[Shiodome]

there's nothing wrong with krak missiles, they'll happily take wounds of most Fex's and slow down/kill walkers etc. take the 10 man squad, the 5 man squad with a powerfist is doing nothing for 2+ turns and without the extra bodies to spread armour saves the chance of the sergeant dying to shooting means he's unlikely to see combat anyway.

[minigun762]

I think the easy answer for Loyalists is to use Assault Marines. They're not much more expensive now and if you really want to use a 5 man squad, you'll still have twice the attacks as a 5 man Tac squad (only not quite but almost). They are also more likely to get the charge in.

 

Tacticals should be bringing firepower to the table and counter assaulter as a last resort. Use your Assault Marines as your main assaulters, they'll work fine assuming you've wounded the target prior.

 

Or just switch to Chaos where you have Troops with 2 base attacks and option of Icons. ;)

[blood_raven_240]

Well, two setups come to mind:

 

Squad of 6 in Razorback with Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Tooled Sergeant

Squad of 6, 7 in Drop Pod (Much underestimated)

[Reinholt]

My thought is more this:

 

Why are you fighting those things in CC other than as a last resort with a tactical squad?

 

They have a major advantage in shooting versus those kinds of things (heavy and special weapons with ablative wounds in the form of basic troopers, and against the MC or the back armor of a dread, the off chance to do some damage with a bolter as well, and mobility if you take a rhino); I am a big fan of fists because they are a hedge in close combat against other armies.

 

However, you definitely should soften those bastards up with some shooting first (and, if possible, just blast the dread out of the game) before daring to engage them in hand to hand with a tactical squad - match your strength against their weakness, not the other way around. Likewise, make sure to use transports and cover to your advantage; you want to hamper anything coming after a tactical squad as much as possible, and unlike bikes, you should be using cover with your tactical squads.

 

One thing I will counter is the idea of combat-squadding - there might be reasons not to do it here. Against those foes I would be inclined to keep my guys in a 10-man block, take a few potshots with heavy weapons and a plasma gun (if you have one) as MCs or Dreads close on you, and only on the turn they move into 12" do you rush forward, open fire with bolt pistols and assault weapons, then assault to seize the initiative with them and buy an extra attack with the powerfist sergeant for you.

[Ethrion]

One small point I should mention is that you can only take a drop pod as a transport for the tactical squad if they number 10 marines. Any less and you can only take a rhino or razorback.