GN thunder hammer ?`s

[kennedy]

if a hero or brother captain chooses a thunder hammer as a second weapon with his nfw, which one does he use in close combat?

does he get to choose between the two during each round of combat, or is he forced to use one for the entire game, like his nfw because thats what he came with and the thunder hammer is just considered and extra cc weapon?

[Tauren]

IF you are gonna take a thunder hammer on your GM, take a daemon hammer... it replaces your NFW.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

if a hero or brother captain chooses a thunder hammer as a second weapon with his nfw, which one does he use in close combat?

does he get to choose between the two during each round of combat, or is he forced to use one for the entire game, like his nfw because thats what he came with and the thunder hammer is just considered and extra cc weapon?

 

When you are armed with two different 'special' close combat weapons, the BRB tells us to choose between them. You can change every round of combat, but you have to use only one weapon in a single round (so no splitting attacks between the two).

 

You cannot claim the +1A for two ccw's from a thunder hammer+NFW combo; firstly, they're both special ccws and secondly, the BRB requires a 2nd thunderhammer (ie you need two of a kinda) in order to claim the +1A bonus.

 

The only way to get the +1A bonus on a Grey Knight hero or Brother-Captain is to give him a storm shield. It counts as a normal single-handed close-combat weapon, so you can combine it with the standard NFW (although in order to carry the storm shield you have to drop the storm bolter, but it's not a huge loss). Thats what I do with my Grandmaster, when not facing Daemons.

 

When I do face Daemons, I take the following bad-boy;

 

Grandmaster, daemonhammer, NFW, sacred incense, grimoire, 'Destroy Daemon' power

GKT with NFW+incinerator, 2 x GKT's with TH+SS

(363 points)

[Reinholt]

As a general rule, you get to pick between them each round.

 

As a meta-concern, I'd be leery about giving a 1 wound model with a 5+ invulnerable save and Independent Character status a weapon that causes them to strike last. I suspect they will die frequently before getting a chance to use it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

As a meta-concern, I'd be leery about giving a 1 wound model with a 5+ invulnerable save and Independent Character status a weapon that causes them to strike last. I suspect they will die frequently before getting a chance to use it.

 

The funny thing is, Elite BC's have the option to swap out their NFW+storm bolter for TH+SS for free (read the unit entry for GKT's, it says so). Also, while he's an IC, the GKT unit is still an 'official' retinue, so he can't be picked out in close-combat (unlike 90% of IC's these days). However, the BC 'hero' in HQ does have to pay for a thunderhammer like normal.

 

However, as far as actual weapon upgrades go, I never do much more than a psycannon on the BC. He's simply not worth the effort as an assault hero. If you want that job done effectively, send in the Grandmaster+retinue.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you purchase a Daemonhammer for a GKBC, and replace his SB (Nothing is written to state you must replace the NFW), leaving him with a NFW and DH, and in CC choose to use the NFW, does the DH (a 1H CC weapon) grant +1 Attack for the NFW?

 

As you're not using a Thunder Hammer, and a Power Weapon has no such stipulation on what gives the additional attack.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No, it doesn't matter dude. The point is that regardless of what you're attacking with, the only way to claim +1A for two ccws while using a lighting claw, powerfist or thunderhammer is two have two of a kind (ie two powerfists, two thunderhammers etc).

 

So, in your example, the NFW would only get base attacks and of course the +1 for charging.

[kennedy]

i usually do the psycannon for my gm and bc also. i just wodered if it was possible to take a thunder hammer with the NFW, and how it would work.

it sounds interesting enough to try, and quite fun if it works. just the thought of him running around with both is amusing to me.

i have never used thunder hammers before. i am going to have to try the th/ss with some of my termies next time.

is it worth giving up their initiative order NFW attacks? and does the storm shield really benefit you that much?

[Gentlemanloser]

No, it doesn't matter dude. The point is that regardless of what you're attacking with, the only way to claim +1A for two ccws while using a lighting claw, powerfist or thunderhammer is two have two of a kind (ie two powerfists, two thunderhammers etc).

 

So, in your example, the NFW would only get base attacks and of course the +1 for charging.

 

I'll have to check the BRB. As you're not using the TH, you're choosing a different special weapon to use, and are actually using a Power Weapon. Which has no stipulation on the weapon type that grants the +1A.

 

I suppose it'll depend on the wording of the using 2 x TH section.

[kennedy]

No, it doesn't matter dude. The point is that regardless of what you're attacking with, the only way to claim +1A for two ccws while using a lighting claw, powerfist or thunderhammer is two have two of a kind (ie two powerfists, two thunderhammers etc).

 

So, in your example, the NFW would only get base attacks and of course the +1 for charging.

 

I'll have to check the BRB. As you're not using the TH, you're choosing a different special weapon to use, and are actually using a Power Weapon. Which has no stipulation on the weapon type that grants the +1A.

 

I suppose it'll depend on the wording of the using 2 x TH section.

that would be nice if we could get the extra attack out of that. it sounds logical, but i am curious to see what the ruling is.

[number6]

Page 42 of the BRB is what you're looking for. The way I read it, a NFW is a "special weapon" since, on any model where this will matter, it will count as either a power weapon or a force weapon. Therefore, the only way for the model to gain an extra melee attack is for the wielder to either have two of the same special weapon (i.e., two NFWs, which is impossible) or a normal weapon and a special weapon. (With explicit exception made for lightning claws, thunder hammers, and power firsts, of course.) Since a storm shield counts as a one-handed weapon -- apparently a "normal" weapon, it would seem -- it should allow a model equipped with a NFW and a SS a bonus melee attack, as that would satisfy the conditions laid out under the "normal and special weapon" heading.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Number6, using your description, would it then be possible to gain +1 Attack for having two power weapons? (One NFW, one normal) GK Heroes and GKT Brother-Captain's can't take Close Combat Weapons, the cheapest they can get is the 15pt power weapon. From what you are saying it sounds like power weapons and NFW's come under the same heading.

 

*Hoping to find a use for my lovingly converted GM with 2 swords*

[number6]

Not 100% confident, but I don't think so. ;)

 

On a GM, the NFW counts as a Force Weapon, which isn't the same special weapon as a power weapon according to the BRB. (They have separate entries, and BRB p. 50 notes that force weapons have the same "effects" as power weapons, and them some, which is not the same as "counting as" a power weapon.)

 

On a BC, however, I would say "definitely yes", as a NFW counts as a power weapon, which would then be "the same special weapon" as the armoury-purchased power weapon held in the model's other hand.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Seeing as you've (partially) agreed with me, I'll switch sides for devil's advocacy.

 

The NFW grants +2 Str. The power weapon does not. Are they still the same weapon, or does the NFW just possess power weapon abilities on top of being +2 Str.

[Gentlemanloser]

And how aobut a Master Crafted Power Weapon and a normal Power Weapon? ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

I just solve the whole matter by taking my Grey Knight Terminators as an Elites choice.. doing a free Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield weapon swap on the Brother Captain, then taking a psycannon upgrade and replacing the Storm Shield with it.

 

This gives me a Brother Captain armed with Thunder Hammer and Psycannon for cheap, and since it's a Thunder Hammer I don't have to worry about extra attacks, while getting a second Psycannon in the unit.

 

If I field the same model as a Grand Master, I give him a Daemon Hammer and Psycannon, with Destroy Daemon, Sacred Incense, Ungeants of Warding, and the Grimoire of True Names. He makes demons go splat ;)

[kennedy]

could you give a brother captain the th/ss and then purchase a 2nd th from the armory to replace his ss.--thus giving him the +1 attack. if so, would that give him 4 or 5 th attacks on the charge?

[number6]

The NFW grants +2 Str. The power weapon does not. Are they still the same weapon, or does the NFW just possess power weapon abilities on top of being +2 Str.

All we have is the table on p. 18 of the DH codex. There's no rules text save the preceding sentence. I interpret the phrase "have the following characteristics" (emphasis mine) to mean the same as "counts as" or "equivalent to". If a weapon has the "characteristics" of a power weapon or a force weapon, it is a power weapon or a force weapon for purposes of the game. The +2 Str bonus doesn't interfere with those "characteristics" in any way.

 

If you agree with my reading on that, then a NFW that has the "characteristics" of a power weapon is a power weapon. It also happens to provide +2 Str, but that doesn't matter. A model with such a NFW that has a 2nd normal weapon or power weapon will gain an extra melee attack in close combat.

could you give a brother captain the th/ss and then purchase a 2nd th from the armory to replace his ss.--thus giving him the +1 attack.

I should think so. And therefor you could do it with a GM as well, if you so desired.

[Castus Xanthis]

The storm shield entry specifically states that a model wielding it can never claim the bonus for having two weapons.

[Adir]

The storm shield entry specifically states that a model wielding it can never claim the bonus for having two weapons.

Uhh, what codex are you reading from? The beauty of the DH codex is that no such limitation is imposed. Couple that with a footnote in the wargear stating that the storm shield is treated as a single-handed weapon AND the explicit FAQ statement that an NFW is a single-handed weapon gives you an almost no-brainer combo for the GKGM.

[Inquisitor Fox]

could you give a brother captain the th/ss and then purchase a 2nd th from the armory to replace his ss.--thus giving him the +1 attack.

I should think so. And therefor you could do it with a GM as well, if you so desired.

Sadly the HQ Characters do not have the option to swap their weapons at no cost, only the "sergeant" Brother Captain in the Elites Terminator squad entry can pull that off.

 

So there'd have to be some other solution to get the extra attacks on the Hero choices.

[number6]

Good catch, Inquisitor. Sounds like the only plausible way to get a GM a bonus melee attack with his NFW is to replace his storm bolter with a storm shield.

 

A BC can get a bonus melee attack by replacing his storm bolter with either a storm shield or a power weapon.

 

And the only way to give a GM or BC an extra attack with a thunder hammer is to buy him two of them.

 

Because a daemonhammer is "counted as a thunder hammer in all respects", you must give a model bearing a daemonhammer a thunder hammer in their off hand to gain a bonus melee attack.

[kennedy]

in the dh armory, it states that you may not give a model the same weapon twice. does this mean that you cannot give a brother captain with a th/ss a th from the armory, or even a power weapon if this is true.

or is it okay because they already have it as their wargear, and they are buying another out of the armory.

 

numbe6- couldnt you give a GM another power weapon for a +1 attack also? (that is if my above question doesnt pertain)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

numbe6- couldnt you give a GM another power weapon for a +1 attack also? (that is if my above question doesnt pertain)

 

It certainly worked in 4th ed. (I did exactly that), but for 5th ed. its not so clear cut any more.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I usually go by the following principles:

 

Grandmaster: I replace his storm bolter with a storm shield. He therefore gets +1A (SS counts as a single-handed close-combat weapon). If I'm fightning daemons, I replace the storm bolter with a daemonhammer (it's nice to stun the enemy Daemon in the 1st round of combat at I6, then fry him with the NFW in the next round of combat).

If you wanted to go really crazy, you could shell out to replace the NFW with daemonhammer and the storm bolter with a normal thunderhammer. However, I prefer the flexibility of taking both the NFW and daemonhammer. Sure, you miss out on that +1A, but if you're so worried about it just take a cheap SS for defence and stick with his standard NFW.

 

Brother-Captain (hero version): I replace his storm bolter with a pscyannon normally. If I want to use him in close-combat, I replace the storm bolter with a storm shield (you'll never use the power weapon anyway, and the 4+ invul in combat is nice), and like with the GM it grants +1A when combined with the NFW.

 

Brother-Captain (Elite version): He gets a free upgrade to thunderhammer+storm shield. From there you can drop the SS for another (thus getting the +1A, because you have a pair of thunderhammers). However, I usually just replace the storm bolter with a psycannon. Also, you have to consider the fact that for only another 16pts (over the cost of the 2nd thunderhammer), you could buy another GKT and swap out his weapons for TH+SS for free. Another wound and more thunderhammer attacks.