My current Killhammer army - 2000 points.

[Warp Angel]

It's hard to tell - since I haven't played against anyone YET with this list, but since I'm also an Ork player, I made sure I've got the ability to combat and defeat my own army... or at least have a chance.

 

The T5 on the bikes is hugely important for tying up and winning protracted combats with large boyz mobs.

The TH/SS Terminators are death to Nob Bikes, or enough of a threat.

Orks have very little that can reliably deal with a Land Raider.

I've got a ton of anti-horde capability.

I've got mobility to get to Lootas at the back, and plenty of transports to block LOS, channel assaulters, and tank shock reduced size squads.

 

I MIGHT have some problems dealing with a 2-3 battlewagon list, but with rear armor 10, and often open topped, I'm not overly concerned with it.

 

This is all theory and conjecture at this point.

[CosmicBull]

As I usually play 1500 point games, I'm interested in your 1500 point list. More specifically, do you include the LR Crusader in the 1500 point list?

 

CB

[Warp Angel]

My Core is 700 points (see the first post).

 

I add the tactical squad next but with MM instead of HB(230ish)

That leaves me with 500 or so points for Termies and LRC. I'd PROBABLY go with regular terminators in that list for the additional shooting, and would consider a regular land raider because of reduced numbers of Termies and the need for heavy weapons. If I can fit the Thunderfire or a Dakka Predator, I do.

 

That puts 20 marines, 5 terminators, 10 bikes, and 1 bike captain on the table, supported by 2 razorbacks/rhinos and a Land Raider, plus whatever else I have space for.

 

I caution people against copying my lists directly, since (as I've pointed out upthread, and in numerous Killhammer posts), I flat out know my army and playstyle better than you do. And the way I use my toys might not work with the way you use yours.

 

I'm giving away some of the Killhammer: Army Building article that I'm working on, but what's important is that you have a balance of Roles, Capability, and Redundancy.

 

Roles are: Defender, Hunter, Killer, Cleaner, Firebase

Capabilities are: CC, Anti-Infantry (horde or MEQ), and Anti-Tank

Redundancy means you need to have something else capable of doing the same thing as another unit, even if it doesn't do it as well, or has to give up or weaken it's primary role.

 

In the 1500 list, the tacticals are backups to everything, but primarily defenders.

Bikes are cleaners or hunters (depending on opponent), but also killers.

Termies are killers or hunters and backup cleaners.

Land Raider is a Firebase that doubles as a cleaner.

Razorbacks support appropriate to their weaponry.

 

Captain, Bikes, MM Tac are anti tank capable.

Termies, Captain, and to a lesser extent unsupported bikes, are CC capable.

Anti Infantry is EVERYWHERE in the list.

 

There's any number of legitimate (and potentially more potent) subsititions you could make in this list as long as you've got the roles and capabilities covered. And that's the point of Killhammer... to give you a framework to bring about the best potential, not give strict guidelines as to what is better than something else.

 

The most important part of the Killhammer formula is the "S". Always remember that "S" is based in large part on you, the general, and in the battlefield and opponent you're facing.

[CosmicBull]

Warp Angel -

 

Thank you for explaining your 1500 point list. I use Dark Angels, so I'm not in a position to copy / play your list, but I have been trying to adopt the killhammer mindset to unit selections from the Dark Angels codex.

 

CB

[Warp Angel]

Well, for DA, it's going to be a ton harder to replicate my list. That's not the point of Killhammer though... to build the best list. It's to use the list that you build efficiently and to find a list that gives you the tools that you need to deal with all situations.

[tedwin183]

Warp Angel, when do you use the hellfire rounds? Do you take a bolter with your captain on the bike and use them in that, or do you take hell fire rounds and use them in the TL bolters on the bike?

 

Edit: Nevermind. I just read the hellfire entry in the codex and it says "replaces bike bolter rounds" so I just answered my own question. I am really liking the bik captain/full bike squad as scoring. I really like line-pushing abilities in my army and this setup seems to be really good.

[Warp Angel]

Battle Report HERE

[Marlow]

Battle Report HERE

A nice report, athough as you said fairly one sided.

I wonder how well you would fair against a heavily mechanised army as your list does seem weak in ranged anti-tank?

It may not be possible to get your PF into melee (or even hit if you do against things like Wave Serpents)

[Warp Angel]

Land Raiders are my only real worry. I've got a MM on an attack bike, and MM and Assault Cannons on the Land Raider, and Plasma for shooting at the rear armor in the bike squad. There's the Lascannon on the Razorback, and against AV10, the Plasma Cannons do just fine, thank you.

 

Ideally I'm in CC with any transport vehicles before they drop off their crew. If I'm not, I just ignore the vehicles until I've dealt with the crew (who have much greater kill potential in general). The TH/SS termies really do a number on just about anything, and being able to detatch Pedro to go zooming around with a combat squad as a tank hunter is fun.

 

Everyone underestimates what Pedro's extra attack means when he's forward deployed in the middle of a bunch of Marines.

 

As far as Eldar transports, I concentrate on the stuff not in them until they dump them out, then commence to slaughtering what does pop out because I've deployed in such a way that my units are mutually supporting each other.

 

It's Killhammer. Everything dies. I just need to see to it that my dying allows me to benefit more than my opponent's dying does him. That's what the Kill Gap is for.... Let him kill your stuff, just kill his faster.

[foster]

I was wondering that if you have both kedro and a Captain could you choose to use combat tactics despite the stubbon special rule? Lets say that I want the captains' unit to retreat, will stubbon stop me from doing this.

[Marlow]

I was wondering that if you have both kedro and a Captain could you choose to use combat tactics despite the stubbon special rule? Lets say that I want the captains' unit to retreat, will stubbon stop me from doing this.

Yes. Chapter Tactics is all or nothing. You must replace it for all units in your army or not use the Special Character at all.

[Warp Angel]

I was wondering that if you have both kedro and a Captain could you choose to use combat tactics despite the stubbon special rule? Lets say that I want the captains' unit to retreat, will stubbon stop me from doing this.

Yes. Chapter Tactics is all or nothing. You must replace it for all units in your army or not use the Special Character at all.

 

And for my army and playstyle Stubborn is soooooo much better than Chapter Tactics, it wouldn't be a choice, even if I had one.

[Mistikl]

I'm curious as to why you pick a relic blade over two lightning claws on the captain

[foster]

There's no way I can say this without being a douchebag so I'm gonna just say it. I've stolen and modified this list so I can try it with my brother in our game tommorrow. I'm nicking this list because it's readily available, I already have the modals for it and I'm so much a noob that it takes so long for me to do a list I don't have the time to do it.

 

I've posted this list on INDEX ASTARTES subfurums codex space marine army lists, under Building 2000pt crimson fist force against Orks here. I will be posting a battle report there very soon.

 

Pls don't sue me for copyright theft...

[Warp Angel]

I'm curious as to why you pick a relic blade over two lightning claws on the captain

 

I may switch to that, but I haven't made the plunge. I think the S6 may be more versatile than the claws against light armor and MCs. I'm not solid on it yet.

[Warp Angel]

There's no way I can say this without being a douchebag so I'm gonna just say it. I've stolen and modified this list so I can try it with my brother in our game tommorrow. I'm nicking this list because it's readily available, I already have the modals for it and I'm so much a noob that it takes so long for me to do a list I don't have the time to do it.

 

I've posted this list on INDEX ASTARTES subfurums codex space marine army lists, under Building 2000pt crimson fist force against Orks here. I will be posting a battle report there very soon.

 

Pls don't sue me for copyright theft...

 

Its not exactly an EASY army to play sometimes, and Ork Horde is one where being able to bring the pain in pinpoint areas every turn is important. Scatter your offensive capability too much and you'll get slaughtered. Played right though, it tends to roll my ork lists without too much trouble.

[Mistikl]

I'm curious as to why you pick a relic blade over two lightning claws on the captain

 

I may switch to that, but I haven't made the plunge. I think the S6 may be more versatile than the claws against light armor and MCs. I'm not solid on it yet.

Probable Number of Wounds When Enemy WS 6+

Tough---2LC---RB

10---0.00---0.00

9----0.00---0.25

8----0.00---0.25

7---0.50---0.50

6---0.50---1.75

5---1.00---1.00

4---1.50---1.25

3---2.00---1.25

2---2.50---1.25

1---2.50---1.25

 

Probable Number of Wounds When Enemy WS 1-5

Tough---2LC---RB

10---0.00---0.00

9----0.00---0.33

8----0.00---0.33

7---0.59---0.67

6---0.59---1.00

5---1.19---1.33

4---1.78---1.67

3---2.37---1.67

2---2.96---1.67

1---2.96---1.67

Against stationary AV10 the relic blade gets .5 glancing hits and 1 penetrating hit.

Against stationary AV10 the lightning claws get .67 glancing hits and no penetrating hits. And if the AV is higher than 10 lightning claws are useless.

 

To sum it all up:

Toughness 6 and up the Relic Blade is better, but 5 and down the two lightning claws are equal or better. Obviously the Relic Blade is better against vehicles. I suppose what you take all depends on what you're using it for.

[Warp Angel]

Thanks for the breakdown. But since it's against T5 and better critters, and against vehicles that I'm looking for support, it's kind of a hard choice. And the MEQ numbers aren't THAT much different.

 

The Relic Blade seems to be the better choice against all MCs, against armor, against Plague Marines, other bikers, etc. And has the added advantage of instant kill against T3 characters. And the odds aren't that much better at T4.

[Marlow]

To sum it all up:

Toughness 6 and up the Relic Blade is better, but 5 and down the two lightning claws are equal or better. Obviously the Relic Blade is better against vehicles. I suppose what you take all depends on what you're using it for.

Relic Blades other advantage is it leaves your second hand free for a Gun (less of an issue on a bike) or Storm Shield. I am trying out the Shield to see if it helps keep my Captain alive.

[Mistikl]

Thanks for the breakdown. But since it's against T5 and better critters, and against vehicles that I'm looking for support, it's kind of a hard choice. And the MEQ numbers aren't THAT much different.

 

The Relic Blade seems to be the better choice against all MCs, against armor, against Plague Marines, other bikers, etc. And has the added advantage of instant kill against T3 characters. And the odds aren't that much better at T4.

I forgot all about instant death. The relic blade does look like your best choice then.

 

Relic Blades other advantage is it leaves your second hand free for a Gun (less of an issue on a bike) or Storm Shield. I am trying out the Shield to see if it helps keep my Captain alive.

Personally, I'd take the Aux. Grenade Launcher in the off hand with a relic blade.

[Marlow]

Relic Blades other advantage is it leaves your second hand free for a Gun (less of an issue on a bike) or Storm Shield. I am trying out the Shield to see if it helps keep my Captain alive.

Personally, I'd take the Aux. Grenade Launcher in the off hand with a relic blade.

The AGL does not take up a hand, so you can have it as well as a second weapon. My Captain is on a bike so I do not think he needs the AGL as well, athough I will propably test it out at some point.

[Warp Angel]

I doubt I'm ever going to upkit my Captain to have much else, though if i did, the AGL would be the next piece of the pie.

[Marlow]

I doubt I'm ever going to upkit my Captain to have much else, though if i did, the AGL would be the next piece of the pie.

So what is your view on Storm Shield or Artifact Armour? Would your aim be for more damage output rather than defence?

[Warp Angel]

Given how I use my Captain, damage output is more important than survival. In shooting, there's plenty of ablative wounds in the rest of the bike squad, and in hand to hand, the invuln save is far more important than the 2+ would be. Since I can control what I get into combat with, the 3+ from the shield isn't a huge advantage over the 4+.

 

Both are upgrades that I'm not sure I can justify, though if I stuck him in with a 5 man bike Command Squad, things would be very different, and I'd consider the upgrades.

[Pasch]

I'm running a fairly similar list to yours at 1750 currently.

 

I've been considering swapping on the Captain on a Bike for Kor'sarro Khan. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Ignoring outflank, you gain a 1/6 chance to instant death with your weapon and your entire bike squad then has furious charge + hit and run. You lose hellfire rounds, but despite them being awesome you can make up for them in Sternguard.

 

It only costs 25 points extra and your bikes are still scoring as well.

 

Here is my list

 

HQ:

Kor'sarro Khan 200 points

- Moondrakkan

 

Elites

Sternguard Veteran Squad x 5

2 x Lascannon, Rhino

 

Assault Terminator Squad x 6

6 x TH+SS

 

Core

Tactical Marines x 10

Plasma Cannon, Flamer, Power Weapon

Razorback w/ HB

 

Tactical Marines x 10

Plasma Cannon, Flamer

Rhino

 

Fast

Space Marine Bikes x 9

Flamer, Meltagun, Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

 

Heavy

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Land Raider Crusader

Multimelta

 

Same basic idea with yours, I've run three games with a similar setup against Marines. I noticed I kept losing a bike here and there due to simultaneous combat. Since you'll almost always get the charge with Bikes, this should keep the attrition down against MEQs since you'll go first, all at strength 5 and could possibly instant death any particularly fast characters depending on what way the dice go.

 

I prefer to run my Plasma Cannons in my Tacticals since they're less of a hit if you die to Gets Hot. I considered HBs but I figured Plasma Cannons were just as good if not better against horde lists and more versatile in that they can take down MEQs.

 

I went with Lascannons in the Sternguard so I'd have some long range anti armor, I don't like relying on meltas. Two can pop out of the top hatch of a Rhino and shoot while in relative safety.

 

Of course I had to trim out a Assault Terminator but I figured 6 would be only less tough than 7. Same thing with the bikes to fit in Kor'sarro. Hoping the the extra strength in the attacks from furious charge will more than make up the loss of killyness. Dropped the plasma gun in the bikes for a meltagun for points, and to avoid losing an extremely pricey model if it gets hot.

 

Debated doing something other than Sternguard for my long range tank killing since I'm not running Pedro, but I haven't found anything suitable as of yet.

 

Thoughts?