New daemon player

[andrewm9]

OK, so I started playing 40K about 6 months ago and wouldn't you know it I picked one of the toughest armies to learn with. I picked the Witch-hunters based on fluff and models alone. Now, I've been looking at my second army and decided on Chaos Daemons. I figured I would go the opposite end of the scale.

 

My question to the more learned members of the Bolter and Chainsword is how do I use my army effectively? At this point I have collected 60 daemonettes, the masque, and 3 fiends of Slaanesh. I will soon be laying my hands on FW's Keeper of Secrets. Clearly I have decided to play an all Slaanesh army. I realize I have made it hard on myself. As a modeler I like for my armies to look good assembled and painted (not that I am anywhere close to finishing off my first army in that regard). As a gamer I like my army to have theme, so I went for daemons of just one of the Big Four. I realize I am limiting myself somewhat, but I also don't want to break the bank.

 

How can I use what I have effectively in low point games? Any basic tactica people can give would be helpful. My basic problem is wrapping my head around the deep striking assault army which can't assault the turn it drops in. Please educate the noob. Thanks.

[Captain Malachi]

First off, welcome to the dark side :P

 

All Slaanesh, while harder than a balanced army, isn't impoosible to win with, you just need to make sure you spend as much time on combat as possible, as that's where you dominate. By low points games how many do you mean? 500, 1000 or 1500?

 

For 500, just take the masque, or a herald if you can get one (a suitably blinged up daemonettes works fine) and some daemonettes, no real tactics other than try and kill as much as possible.

 

For 1000, another sqaud of daemonettes and some fiends will be useful. The fiends should probably be used in an anti-tank role, since with their decent strength, millions of attacks and rending they stand a decent chance to bust open light armour. Try and use the masque pavane and your other units fleet to get in to combat as quick as possible and decimate the enemy.

 

For 1500, the keeper will be a big help, helping you to bust heavier armour and kicking butt all round.

 

The deepstriking can be a problem, and was really designed with balanced lists in mind, but if you try and run in to cover, you can at least try and keep yourself alive a little longer. Or, deepstrike close and pray, but with T3 on almost everything that's a little risky.

[minigun762]

I'd say numbers always helps, you have the cheapest daemon troop so might as well enjoy that.

T3 sucks but many people gear up for anti-MEQ which normally means S7/8 shots which would wound even a Plague Bearer on a 2+. Enough bodies and good use of cover will keep you moderately safe.

 

With Slaanesh, remember your main advantage is speed, both in your ability to Fleet into combat and your higher Initiative. Get in combat with sufficient numbers and the dice should work for you. Catching a unit in a sweeping advance is awesome considering your absurb Initiative.

 

Slaaneshi Daemon Princes are also pretty cheap, a few big guys does wonders to distract the opponent from the horde of screaming sexfiends. Keeper of Secrets is probably the best overall Greater Daemon so 1-2 of them is worthwhile. I have actually been liking a Charioted Herald with Unholy Strike/Might whatever it is (+1S). You're S5 I8 on the charge with alot of attacks. More wounds and a 4+ armor save should help you survive some fire coming your way.

 

Lastly, Soul Grinders make for a good addition to any army. Probably go with Phlegm and hurl pie plates at the enemy. Rely on your S10 attacks to take out the AV14 vehicles you might face.

 

If I did pure Slaanesh @ 2000 I'd probably go with 1 Keeper, 2 Chariot Heralds, 6ish Fiends, 2 Soul Grinders, 1 Daemon Prince and fill in the rest with Daemonettes.

[andrewm9]

First off, welcome to the dark side :)

 

All Slaanesh, while harder than a balanced army, isn't impoosible to win with, you just need to make sure you spend as much time on combat as possible, as that's where you dominate. By low points games how many do you mean? 500, 1000 or 1500?

 

Thanks. I am thinking I can field 750 points no problem. If use everything I have I almost get 1250.

 

For 500, just take the masque, or a herald if you can get one (a suitably blinged up daemonettes works fine) and some daemonettes, no real tactics other than try and kill as much as possible.

 

For 1000, another sqaud of daemonettes and some fiends will be useful. The fiends should probably be used in an anti-tank role, since with their decent strength, millions of attacks and rending they stand a decent chance to bust open light armour. Try and use the masque pavane and your other units fleet to get in to combat as quick as possible and decimate the enemy.

 

For 1500, the keeper will be a big help, helping you to bust heavier armour and kicking butt all round.

 

The deepstriking can be a problem, and was really designed with balanced lists in mind, but if you try and run in to cover, you can at least try and keep yourself alive a little longer. Or, deepstrike close and pray, but with T3 on almost everything that's a little risky.

 

I guess the real trick is how do I balance my army, once I develop a full-sized army at least at deployment time

[Captain Malachi]

Well, Slaanesh has all the troop killing power you could ever need, provided you get in to combat of course. As minigun said, a couple of prince/grinders (grinders are best, but not Slaaneshi, so it depends on how pure you want to be) are good for anti-tank, and both double as troop killers if things get desperate. Another thing about Slaaneshi princes is that with I6 they make excellent character killers, especially of the marine variety.

 

You might want to consider seekers, they're a little bit more expensive than daemonettes, but hit like a truck, adn with a 12" charge, they get to hit sooner :D Only problem is there's no model at the moment, so you'll have to make your own. The idea I had to make some would have ended up costing me almost £30 for ten, which isn't actually that bad now I tihnk about it....

[andrewm9]

I'd say numbers always helps, you have the cheapest daemon troop so might as well enjoy that.

T3 sucks but many people gear up for anti-MEQ which normally means S7/8 shots which would wound even a Plague Bearer on a 2+. Enough bodies and good use of cover will keep you moderately safe.

 

With Slaanesh, remember your main advantage is speed, both in your ability to Fleet into combat and your higher Initiative. Get in combat with sufficient numbers and the dice should work for you. Catching a unit in a sweeping advance is awesome considering your absurb Initiative.

 

Slaaneshi Daemon Princes are also pretty cheap, a few big guys does wonders to distract the opponent from the horde of screaming sexfiends. Keeper of Secrets is probably the best overall Greater Daemon so 1-2 of them is worthwhile. I have actually been liking a Charioted Herald with Unholy Strike/Might whatever it is (+1S). You're S5 I8 on the charge with alot of attacks. More wounds and a 4+ armor save should help you survive some fire coming your way.

 

Lastly, Soul Grinders make for a good addition to any army. Probably go with Phlegm and hurl pie plates at the enemy. Rely on your S10 attacks to take out the AV14 vehicles you might face.

 

If I did pure Slaanesh @ 2000 I'd probably go with 1 Keeper, 2 Chariot Heralds, 6ish Fiends, 2 Soul Grinders, 1 Daemon Prince and fill in the rest with Daemonettes.

 

How worth it are DP's as opposed to Soul Grinders? I've seen logical arguments going both ways.

 

I see that Chariot Heralds need some customization to do and that’s one area I haven't branched into. I have to say I love the idea and the numbers as they look very effective when properly supported. I figure within 3 to 6 months I can build my army to that level and your suggestions are pretty close to the route I was taking.

 

One more question from the noob demon player. How worth it do Seekers seem to be in people's opinions? I like the models (at least the latest oop ones) and intend on getting a few, but are they worth it to field?

[andrewm9]

You might want to consider seekers, they're a little bit more expensive than daemonettes, but hit like a truck, adn with a 12" charge, they get to hit sooner ;) Only problem is there's no model at the moment, so you'll have to make your own. The idea I had to make some would have ended up costing me almost £30 for ten, which isn't actually that bad now I tihnk about it....

 

I see you like the seekers. What did your idea consist of if I may ask?

[==Me==]

Late to the party, but you always save the best for last right? :)

 

Welcome to the Warp, pull up some souls and start partying.

 

Slaanesh is all about speed, either by getting stuck in sooner or bringing the enemy closer. Unfortunately, the vast majority of your units are fragile, the softest in the army and having to rely on rending for their damage.

 

First off, look at Fiends. They rock, the best Slaanesh unit there is. Low points cost, amazing stats, and Sopoforic Musk. These guys are awesome sauce, never skimp on them.

 

Daemonettes suck, sorry. They're slow by Slaaneshi standards, are laughably easy to kill, and can't reliably kill marines without having a ton of models in there. On the plus side, they're cheap, hold icons (I don't think they're necessary, but we'll get into that later), have high I, and grenades. 2-3 big units should be plenty.

 

Seekers are expensive Daemonettes with 12" charge and +1A. They're better than Daemonettes, but Fiends win big here unless you plan on charging through cover.

 

Keepers are great, probably the best GD for the points. I like Musk and Pavane on ==Mine==. Run up, smack things silly, Hit and Run away, Pavane things closer and charge again. Rinse repeat. Its biggest downside is only having a 4+ invulnerable save. It will take lots of fire, so you'll need DPs/Grinders to take the heat off of it.

 

DPs vs Grinders is the eternal debate. They both bring a lot to the table, namely tank busting, dakka, and toughness. I like phlegm Grinders in concert with Pavane to get the most of your pie plates, plus S10 and fleet if you have any vehicle problems. DPs I run with Pavane, Aura, Musk, and Iron Hide, Might if points allow. Same plan as the Keeper, only Pavaning all the time with BS5.

 

Heralds rock...in chariots. Never put a Herald on foot or on a steed, you're points are better spent elsewhere. Chariots are cheap, tough, and hit really hard. I like Musk and Pavane on them (seeing a pattern?). Run up, hit something, run away, and pavane stuff around for pie plates/flamers/assaults.

 

Icon aren't needed in a Slaanesh list, your assault range is massive so you can deploy safely to avoid mishaps or getting shot up too much.

 

As far as tactics are concerned, you drop in (load up your big stuff in 1 wave and small stuff in another to overload the enemy's capacity to down them all), spread out by running to avoid templates, and get stuck in. Units with Musk use it to skip all over the board, catching the fastest foes with ease (Potential 36" charge range for Fiends/Chariots, 12" H&R+6" move+6" run+12" assault = nowhere to hide!) and Pavaners make life easier for your templates and slower units.

 

If I'm running Mono-Slaanesh, it'll probably look like this.

 

Keeper w/ Musk, Pavane

2x 6 Fiends w/ Might

Daemonettes as needed

2x Phlegm Grinders

DP w/ Musk, Pavane, Iron Hide

 

It's got the big hitters, speed, and plenty capability to bust tanks with 2 MCs, 2 Grinders, and Fiends. Alternatively, you can run a hordish list with chariot Heralds, Fiends, Seekers, and Daemonettes.

 

And with regards to converting chariots, it's actually pretty easy. I'm just putting a modified plastic Daemonette on a Tomb Kings chariot with chaosy bits and plastic Goblin Spiders.

[Raptor1313]

i'm with ==Me== on this.

 

Daemonettes...eh. Not really a great troop choice. They need numbers to be effective, but they're a bit expensive to swarm with and they die.

 

Fiends are pretty much the top stuff for Slaanesh, and the Keeper is pretty much the best value-choice for Greater Daemons.

 

All the fast-attack choices in the codex are pretty much overpriced hormagaunts. Seekers are just more expensive 'nettes.

 

Personally, I favor Soul Grinders. 135 for fleet, S10 power weapon attacks, and a heavy flamer is nasty. Plus, their ability to lock down people for Fiends to Hit 'n' run from...oh, it's love.

 

Pavane is nice for templates, but it's only 1d6 of movement, which is easy to flop. But, it can help them do the group hug, which is what you really want. I'd use it for templates, but not to reliably pull the enemy out of position.

 

Chariots are, on ANY HQ choice (...aside from Nurgle Heralds, which are pretty much poo) are awesome. If you can get a Slaaneshi Chariot-Herald into the fray, it's a nasty charge. The durability is insane.

 

For Mono-Slaanesh at 1850, I'd look at something like...

 

Keeper w/ Unholy Might, Soporific Musk

235

 

Keeper w/ Unholy Might, Soporific Musk

235

 

5 Fiends

150

 

5 Fiends

150

 

5 Fiends

150

 

12 Daemonettes

168

 

12 Daemonettes

168

 

13 Daemonettes

182

 

Soul Grinder

135

 

Soul Grinder

135

 

Soul Grinder

135

 

Total: just under 1850, I believe

 

Deploy based on what the enemy has the ability to kill faster; infantry or vehicles. Lock them down in melee, bring the other half.

[minigun762]

i'm with ==Me== on this.

 

Daemonettes...eh. Not really a great troop choice. They need numbers to be effective, but they're a bit expensive to swarm with and they die.

 

Fiends are pretty much the top stuff for Slaanesh, and the Keeper is pretty much the best value-choice for Greater Daemons.

 

All the fast-attack choices in the codex are pretty much overpriced hormagaunts. Seekers are just more expensive 'nettes.

 

Personally, I favor Soul Grinders. 135 for fleet, S10 power weapon attacks, and a heavy flamer is nasty. Plus, their ability to lock down people for Fiends to Hit 'n' run from...oh, it's love.

 

Pavane is nice for templates, but it's only 1d6 of movement, which is easy to flop. But, it can help them do the group hug, which is what you really want. I'd use it for templates, but not to reliably pull the enemy out of position.

 

Chariots are, on ANY HQ choice (...aside from Nurgle Heralds, which are pretty much poo) are awesome. If you can get a Slaaneshi Chariot-Herald into the fray, it's a nasty charge. The durability is insane.

 

For Mono-Slaanesh at 1850, I'd look at something like...

 

Keeper w/ Unholy Might, Soporific Musk

235

 

Keeper w/ Unholy Might, Soporific Musk

235

 

5 Fiends

150

 

5 Fiends

150

 

5 Fiends

150

 

12 Daemonettes

168

 

12 Daemonettes

168

 

13 Daemonettes

182

 

Soul Grinder

135

 

Soul Grinder

135

 

Soul Grinder

135

 

Total: just under 1850, I believe

 

Deploy based on what the enemy has the ability to kill faster; infantry or vehicles. Lock them down in melee, bring the other half.

 

If you're not a fan of Daemonettes, why not go with 2 10 (wo)man squads and use them just for scoring purposes? That would free you up for another Soul Grinder or Daemon Prince or more Fiends.

 

Personally I like Daemonettes and a swarm of them would be fun to play. Kind of like really fast Orks.

[Raptor1313]

@minigun762

 

If my opponent sees an objective-based game and me with all of 20 T3, 5+ models to score with...he's going to go straight for them, and unless I can keep them out of sight, I'm going to lose them.

 

I went mostly with 'em for the whole 'bring Slaanesh scoring units to fit the OP's theme' than anything else. If I were going to run that list, I'd turn 'em into 3 units of plaguebearers.

 

'sides, I'm already at 3 soul grinders...more fiends, maybe.

[minigun762]

@minigun762

 

If my opponent sees an objective-based game and me with all of 20 T3, 5+ models to score with...he's going to go straight for them, and unless I can keep them out of sight, I'm going to lose them.

 

I went mostly with 'em for the whole 'bring Slaanesh scoring units to fit the OP's theme' than anything else. If I were going to run that list, I'd turn 'em into 3 units of plaguebearers.

 

'sides, I'm already at 3 soul grinders...more fiends, maybe.

 

Aww I only saw 2 for some reason.

 

I think people overestimate the amount of death that will come Daemonettes way.

 

10 Bolter shots = 6.6 hit = 4.4 wounds = 3 dead Daemonettes. Put that same squad in 4+ cover and its just over 2 dead Daemonettes.

Compare that to Genestealers with E. Carapace. 10 Bolter shots = 6.6 hits = 3.3 wounds and 1.6 dead Genestealers. Those Genestealers are about 50% more expensive so overall I don't think its that bad really.

Considering how fast they can get into combat, I think you'd only have to endure 1-2 rounds of shooting before you hit them. Most importantly the ability to Fleet should get you into combat before they can rapid fire.

 

Of course a fun fun army would be Daemonette spam. 100 Daemonettes = 1400 points. Add in a few heralds and call it good. :P

[Raptor1313]

Still, they're just not that killy overall...or that durable. T3 with a 3+ or 4+ save ust isn't that great. Most people are geared for taking out T4 models that hide behind 4+ cover, and the same massed number of wounds works against 3+ saves as well. 'nettes just let more wound sthrough than anyone else.

 

And most 'nid players I've seen just run massed stealers. For 2 more points, you get WS6, S4 and T4 in exchange for downgrading to 5+ armor. Most folks if they run anything run Feeder Tendrils, which gives you Preferred Enemy. Even worse. I'd take Stealers over 'nettes any day of the week.

 

My other note is that try the math vs. any CC-oriented enemy...

 

Say you charge 10 Khorne Berserkers, and leader has a fist.

10 'nettes throw 40 attacks. Hit 20, kill 3 with rends, and a fourth with the force saves.

5 berserkers throw 15 attacks back at you. They hit on 3+, since they're WS5. 10 hit, and 7 wound you. You save 2. You lose 5 daemonettes.

 

Leader throws his 3 fist attacks, hits two, wounds two, you might save one.

 

YOu lose 5-6 'nettes, you take a couple saves.

 

Next round: 5 of your 'nettes vs. 5 berserkers and a champ. You won't win this one...

 

The real issue is that you need troops alive to score, and taking too many flimsy troops is a great way to lose your ability to claim.

[eyescrossed]

But Berzerkers are as expensive as... well... assault marines with jump packs.

[==Me==]

Daemonettes are insanely fragile, so you need lots to even meet minimum requirements for scoring.

[Evil Homer]

Still, they're just not that killy overall...or that durable. T3 with a 3+ or 4+ save ust isn't that great. Most people are geared for taking out T4 models that hide behind 4+ cover, and the same massed number of wounds works against 3+ saves as well. 'nettes just let more wound sthrough than anyone else.

 

And most 'nid players I've seen just run massed stealers. For 2 more points, you get WS6, S4 and T4 in exchange for downgrading to 5+ armor. Most folks if they run anything run Feeder Tendrils, which gives you Preferred Enemy. Even worse. I'd take Stealers over 'nettes any day of the week.

 

My other note is that try the math vs. any CC-oriented enemy...

 

Say you charge 10 Khorne Berserkers, and leader has a fist.

10 'nettes throw 40 attacks. Hit 20, kill 3 with rends, and a fourth with the force saves.

5 berserkers throw 15 attacks back at you. They hit on 3+, since they're WS5. 10 hit, and 7 wound you. You save 2. You lose 5 daemonettes.

 

Leader throws his 3 fist attacks, hits two, wounds two, you might save one.

 

YOu lose 5-6 'nettes, you take a couple saves.

 

Next round: 5 of your 'nettes vs. 5 berserkers and a champ. You won't win this one...

 

The real issue is that you need troops alive to score, and taking too many flimsy troops is a great way to lose your ability to claim.

 

I am just starting Demon's myself so take this with a grain but...

 

I think the real comparison though is between equivalent point values

Really rough mathammer ahead. Since I'm a math novice feel free to correct....

 

10x Zerker, champ, PF (240)

vs.

17 Daemonettes

 

Daemonettes Charge 68 attacks. 34 hits. 5-6 rend + 12 wound, 3-4 failed saves. Total 8 dead 'zerkers

 

2 'zerkers strike back. We'll assume the PF survives (though there is a better than 50% chance its already dead due to wound allocation) and you end up with something like 3 normal attacks,3 hit 2 wound 2 dead deamonettes. That's being generous and rounding fraction in favor of the 'zerkers.

 

Powerfist does the same. So 2-3 more dead demonettes.

 

Total losses:

10 zerkers (240)

5 Demonettes (70)

 

The same point value in Fiends doesn't even yield the same kind of results and requires you to have fielded and been able to charge with multiple units of fiends.

 

Fiend Math: assume 8 fiends get the charge from 2 units...

48 attacks, 24 hit, 3-4 rends + 8 wound and 2-3 failed saves = 5-6 dead 'zerkers.

 

Conclusions:

The key to Demonettes is full blocks. The risks are also great though. You are template bait when you arrive. My growing demon army is built around 3 full blocks of demonettes and 2 10 man blood letter squads. I think though that a daemonette horde has real killing/winning potential especially if you accept the premise that 5th is about killing and not about objectives.

 

 

Pure Slaanesh List:

 

HQ-

Keeper of Secrets Soporific Musk, Unholy Might (235)

 

Elites-

6 Fiends of Slaanesh (180)

 

Troops -

18 Daemonettes (252)

18 Daemonettes (252)

18 Daemonettes (252)

 

Heavy

Soul Grinder + Phlegm or Tongue (160)

Soul Grinder + Phelgm or Tongue (160)

Total = 1491

 

1st Half is the Grinders + Keeper and 1 unit of Daemonettes. The object of the first wave is to eliminate template throwers and vehicles, Russes, Vindi's and other big pie plate tossers get nailed first.

 

EH

[minigun762]

Still, they're just not that killy overall...or that durable. T3 with a 3+ or 4+ save ust isn't that great. Most people are geared for taking out T4 models that hide behind 4+ cover, and the same massed number of wounds works against 3+ saves as well. 'nettes just let more wound sthrough than anyone else.

 

They are the weakest Daemon to be sure.

I guess I just have a thing for the underdog.

[Captain Malachi]

My idea for seekers was to use woodelf dryads, daemonette torsos and some green stuff to make centaur style seekers. And yes, I am a fan, 12" charge is pretty good, and they're so much cheaper than fiends. Personally I think they are one of our most viable fast attack choices.

[Raptor1313]

@ Evil Homer

Yeah...that's a bit of my point, though. If you want daemonettes to be effective, you have to take them en masse.

 

Also, realize that chances are good you'll take some gunfire coming in. Don't assume you'll have 18 daemonettes rearing to go, but you can at least get a Run in on the deep-striking turn. I'd also drop into cover to get that 4+ save. If you get the full unit in cover, you lose two daemonettes (given a 1/6 chance of failing Dangerous Terrain, you'll fail it 3 times, and make one invulnerable save).

 

That DOES give you a 4+ cover save, which is honestly worth it.

 

A couple issues to consider with this berserker charge, though...

-A lot of the time, they'll be in a transport. Daemonettes need the kind of numbers you're talking about to open up that transport.

-If said transport is a Land Raider, forget it; daemonettes top out at 12 for armor piercing rolls (S3 + a six on penetration + 3 on the rending d3)

 

You can make the daemonette-heavy army work for you, but it won't be the most efficient use of daemons.

 

It's also a bit of a failing of Math-hammer that I'm guilty of falling prey to from time to time...we can run the numbers of a combat, but not always take into account the battlefield conditions that lead to said situation, and how they might influence the outcome. (IE: like whether or not those 'nettes get into cover and how much fire they take on the way in, or how the Berserkers are getting where they're going, et al.)

 

@ Captain Malachi

I'd rather get the second wound and the S5 of the Fiend, m'self...though I refuse to use the metal ones. (...and at something like $17USD a pop and I'm looking at fielding 15-18? I don't think so...). My plan is similar to yours, save that I'm doing a conversion based off the Chaos Knight (at least that's the neatest-sounding idea I've got so far) and I can dig the armor, as I'm doing a forge-themed army list.

[Captain Malachi]

Oh don't get me wrong, given the choice between fiend or seeker I'd probably go for the fiend, all I'm saying is that the seekers are pretty good, and are often underestimated in comparison to fiends as well, by both us daemon players and our opponents.

[Raptor1313]

Oh don't get me wrong, given the choice between fiend or seeker I'd probably go for the fiend, all I'm saying is that the seekers are pretty good, and are often underestimated in comparison to fiends as well, by both us daemon players and our opponents.

 

I take your meaning on them, but I can't help but seeing them as more expensive hormagaunts with an invulnerable save and I7.

[Captain Malachi]

Seekers have +2 attacks, +2 initiative, rending, grenades and don't have to worry about synapse for +7 points. If hormagaunts had all that I'd take them all the time.

[Raptor1313]

They also have T3 and 5+ saves.

 

Losing Hormies isn't as painful as losing Seekers.

 

The other real gripe I have (that GW will probably fix soon...) is the metal models that are hard to get.

 

I hates me some metal minis.