Help define and refine DIY.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I have been thinking of an idea for a new chapter recently, one that has captured my interest so fully that I am unable to think of any other ideas of any other sort.

 

I am also notorious (at least to myself) for allowing these sorts of projects to crop up, then die a slow death as I suddenly get ideas for other, sometimes even un-related projects.

 

I recently took a quick 'butchers-hook' at the WHFB MMO (Warhammer Online) as I am a gamer and was intrigued as to what they had done with it. I perused the classes and came upon the Knight of the Blazing Sun.

 

(Here is a link to the page which so inspired me. Visual inspiration was mainly from the mid-right image on the page in the 'Look' section.)

 

I was immediately and irrovocably taken with the colours of the Knights. The deep bronze armour combined with the black and yellow heraldry make them an extremely attractive bunch and will doubtless be the class I am to play when I get around to aquiring a free-trial.

 

In the meantime however I had the thought to apply this colour scheme, and slight theme to the new chapter I was thinking of creating to go with the brace of models I have bought myself recently. Also the theme of the Knights of the Blazing Sun, as portrayed on the games website showed them to be tacticians and strategists, keeping cool heads in combat and able to direct the battle even while serving as formidable warriors in their own right.

 

This fit very well with what I wanted the chapter to be originally and so I have set out to create at the very least a working draft of a DIY for them, if not a full-blown Librarium applicant.

 

The problems I have run into are thus:

 

Any 'Knightly' chapter is normally strongly related to both hand to hand combat, crusading and overzealousness. All with good reason, however I really, really want to move away from the archetype the Black Templars have set up. - For example moving away from the Hand to Hand warfare aspect, moving more to a CQB level, in essence taking away the swords and replacing it with short range firepower; bolters, flamers etc.

 

A name, I don't want to call them the 'Knights of the Blazing Sun' and rip off the WHFB mythos totally, and I refuse to simply alter the name to fit. I would prefer a new name but I really can't seem to grasp one out of the ether of my mind.

 

Heraldry, depending on the name change I would be moving away from the 'Blazing Sun' image that is the knights heraldry, but one that works so well with their colours.

 

Finally, after all the ways I want to distance them from the Knightly/Black Templar archetype, I do want them to resemble, perhaps even only in structure and/or beliefs an Order of sorts.

 

Any suggestions are more than welcome so please go ahead and speak your mind!

 

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Homeworld

 

Disclaimer: This is all conjecture and ideas that have been brought together so far, so don't take this as a final product.

 

[Name is forthcoming, when I think of one]

 

Climate: [/i]Desert World. Very harsh climate, large sandstorms scour the majority of the surface. (I was thinking of harsh wind patterns, though I'm not meterologist so I can't think of how or why, but thats what I imagined). The planets continents are mostly made up of rock and sand and very scarce resources for survival.

 

Population: The world has three surviving cities that house the majority of the planets population. Each city survives only because of their position over the only remaining abundant resources able to sustain human life, eg. water, fertile ground and shelter. The cities have ancient power generators and other defensive technology but has only recently been re-activated, the human culture being thus far too primitive to revive the technology when it failed. (some thousands of years ago or somesuch.)

 

A minority of the human is transient, moving between the cities as jobs are given.

 

The culture's advancement is approximately somewhat post black-powder, but the absence of certain chemicals and minerals in the planets crust, combined with a lack of heavy industry and scientific endeavour over survivalism has lead to a severe lack of military technology.

 

Society: The Six cities (Six or Seven?) are the only significant outposts of human civilisation remaining on the world. Each city is built using the materials to hand. Most architecture is comprised of the granite bedrock that the desert rests upon. While there is an abundance of sandstone this material was found very early on to be less than adequate for weathering the effects of the harsh climate.

 

(Aside: I imagine the cities to be constructed like the Medieval cities of Acre (after it's western occupation, mostly seen in the game Assasin's Creed. Low and flat with few high-rise buildings.)

 

Wood is extremely rare to the point of the cities militaries siezing plantations and guarding them fiercely so as to even have enough resources to maintain arms for the cities defenders, the Crossbow being the weapon of choice. Metal is also a scarce commodity, but in the advent of what would serve as the planets industrial revoloution mines have been constructed and metal armour and weapons are beggining to be phased into use, though the heaviest troops wear only simple breastplates. However stone weapons (akin to the Native American Tomahawk I would say, unless my brain has gone haywire I think it was made with stone) are still the most easily produced and maintained weapons.

 

(I imagine these troops to be something like the English Roundheads during the English Civil War.)

 

The culture itself is one bred of survival. There is no written language and the only religious institution pre-imperial discovery was an aural legend of a Sun deity. Post-discovery this has been changed and the people enlightened, the sun is now revered as a symbol of the Emperors guiding light for humanity. (This is sketchy at the moment at best). The people are fierce and pragmatic with a no-nonsense attitude. The desert is harsh and if you make a mistake it is more than likely your last. The majority of each cities population is indentured in the City Watch, the defenders of the settlement. All are required to serve and unless your subsequent career is vital you are forever required to respond to calls to arms. Vital work consists of Mining, Woodcutting and growing, Stonemasonry and farming.

 

(I think I'm going a little overboard on the culture here so I'll peel off for now.)

 

Intrigue: The worlds cities show evidence of pre-Imperial tech modified to construct less advanced machines and constructions due to limited resources. Each city has a void shield generator and a power core which is also linked to the cities walls which remarkably show very little signs of wear and tear despite the thousands of years of sandstorms that they have endured. This is not to say they are invulnerable, the cities power supply and shields failed thousands of years ago due to a lack of proper maintenance and have stayed mostly inert ever since. There are two cities that are simply ruins. One was clearly a victim of a reactor malfunction, the resulting explosion vaporising the city center, the following shockwave reducing the remainder to rubble, though the walls still stand. Both cities are now a haven for the Xenos species that lives in the deep deserts.

 

These xenos are humanoid in appearance and unceasingly raid and attack the remaining cities.

 

(so gone too far now.)

[Tyrannicide]

I can understand why you'd like to move away from the overwhelming Black Templars archetype of the crusading, knightly themed Space Marines. It can swallow up the entire Chapter and ultimately convert them into Black Templars with a different name, scheme, and small bits of additional fluff. I think that with this you may want to focus on a homeworld to begin with, unless of course they are fleet-based. The homeworld of the particular Chapter can actually lend itself to ideas you may want to incorporate though. Does your Chapter have close ties with its homeworld, or do they have more of a distant relationship, only rarely swooping down from the skies to recruit aspirants. If you do decide to choose the first option, ask yourself if the Chapter has absorbed any beliefs, rituals, or dogma from the planet. This could affect your DIY greatly, maybe they are blinded by the people's views and have transformed themselves overtime to fit these views.

 

Just thought I'd offer some food for the thought, I'm interested in seeing what others have to say. :(

[Lysimachus]

funny, i was doing the same thing, trying to do a Bretonian knightly style Chapter without being too obvious (thread's here somewhere, Paladins of Dercia), think i'm gonna abandon mine though so if any of the following ideas fit feel free to take them! :mellow:

 

the things that stood out to me were:

 

1) the focus on lineage among the noble families that produce the knights. for marines, they clearly don't care much about the family line of their recruits (as long as they genetically pure, etc) but could have them very conscious of their gene seed lineage, eg the marines from whom their own seed came, perhaps remembering their forebears deeds, even being able to trace their gene line back to the Chapters founding?

 

2) there being certain forms of war that would be considered beneath their code of honour, specifically skulking about rather than showing their colours. hence my idea was that the 10th co. would not be a proper part of the Chapter, recruited from a less valued part of society (perhaps even another nearby world?) and not being trained as well, maybe not even given all of the implants of a marine (tying in with the 1st point, not giving the 'commoners' of the chapter the same 'lineage' as the main companies?)

 

anyway, they're just a few ideas that came to me but as i said i don't think i'm going to have time to do them properly so if anything fits, feel free to salvage anything you think might be useful from it (or ignore it completely! ;) )

 

 

be interested to see how you develop them anyway!

 

 

Lysimachus

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

@Darth Potato

 

Funny you should say that but after I posted this topic and went to bed, I began to formulate the Homeworld and culture of the planet, though by no means is it concrete yet I am going to update my original post with what I have so far. Homeworld to me is one of the key parts of an IA and a chapters personality and is always something I love to develop, given the right inspiration.

 

How I see them at the moment in regard to your questions are thus:

 

Does your Chapter have close ties with its homeworld, or do they have more of a distant relationship, only rarely swooping down from the skies to recruit aspirants.

 

This is something I was actually divided on, yes divided with myself. ;) I was going to make them more aloof, residing in orbit. However I have thought recently (today) of making them into a more feudal society, giving them closer ties with the planet and its populace. I'll elaborate in the Homeworld stuff I'm to update, I see them as sort of in-between. Not as buddy-buddy as say the Raven Guard or Salamanders, but not as aloof as say... well, the Black Templars I geuss, my mind has drawn a blank of stand-off'ish chapters at the mo'.

 

If you do decide to choose the first option, ask yourself if the Chapter has absorbed any beliefs, rituals, or dogma from the planet. This could affect your DIY greatly, maybe they are blinded by the people's views and have transformed themselves overtime to fit these views.

 

Very true indeed and definetly something I've considered. I was thinking of -again- being slightly in between the extremes of either 'homeworld influenced' or 'influencing the homeworld'. Since the 'blazing sun' angle is being persued, I was thinking of perhaps the chapter coming to the planet and changing some of the existing beliefs. They are looking to be sun-worshippers at the moment, for lack of any other deities in their pantheon and the chapter would come in and 'reveal' to them that perhaps it is the Emperor that is the sun, or in some other metaphisical sense of relating the sun to the Emperor that I can't at the moment think of. My other thought was to have them merge with an already existing organisation similar to a knightly order on the planet, therefore slipping quite easily into their culture and society. I'm undecided as yet.

 

@Strike Captain Lysimachus

 

The points you list are good ones and I really like number 1, and it is something I can easily work into the chapter at this point and fits well with cementing their character as one more of a 'knightly order' than any other type of organisation. I had fleshed out last night that the planet would have a number of small cities, and that each company will have a hold in each city with the exception of the First, Scout and Reserve companies who reside in the chapters main fortress.

 

I was though thinking of changing their organisation, which would better reflect their lineage as well. That each city recruited into one of the companies but that most of these warriors were then rotated through various strike-forces (or similar) so that the majority of the chapters strength was always brought to bear, leaving no reserve companies bar the marines that were at 'home' in their companies chapter house. As such only a relatively small number of warriors would be present in each city, the main fortress being held by the 10th and 1st companies, having no city of their own. The rest would be campaigning or somesuch.

-

Number two is a charactful point but one of the great parts of the Knights of the Blazing Sun theme is that they are superior tacitcians and strategists, and would therefore refrain from counting out any method of warfare if it was useful in certain situations. They would be close adherants to the Codex despite the organisational differences -which I can't as yet explain the reasoning behind in regard to why they diverged from the codex in this regard- which again does not fit with removing a method of warfare from their bag of tricks.

 

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Thanks for the inpsiration guys. :tu:

[Codex Grey]

So the Voyagers are put on ice, or dropped completely?

 

I like the calm and collected knights angle, rather than the roaring, zealous knights. Sorry I can't be of more help at the momemt. But as for the sun worshipping angle, ToyShip had a similar idea. Provided a link that may prove useful:

 

ToyShip's Blog

 

If you were to continue down this road, the the name 'Solar Knights' is a personal favourite. It might be too similar to the knights of the blazing sun, but its a cool name in my opinion.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

The Voyagers are on Ice, unfortunately. This inspired idea has taken me away from them, though I actually feel with each unfinished IA I come up with they are getting actually better or more realistically grounded (in terms of 40k) than the last. Though I haven't forgotten the Voyagers yet and I think I will pick them up again after this idea is (hopefully) seen through.

 

Maybe the astartes absorbed some of the symbolism from their homeworld(emperor being a shining light; sun) but still retaining the typical astartes beliefs?

 

What you said in ToyShip's blog is pretty much what I was thinking, turning the planets heretical worship to a more stable one, subverting the original imagery or deity with the Emperor and how he has cared for them and so on and so forth.

 

I like the calm and collected knights angle, rather than the roaring, zealous knights.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Rather than simply bludgeoning the enemy with your weapon until they are knocked senseless you instead look for the chinks in their armour and strike accordingly, thinking a few steps ahead and all the rest of it. Something other than screaming bloody murder and waving your sword around in a typically enraged fashion.

 

On the naming, I'm honestly not sure yet. I was thinking something along the lines of the 'Knights Hospitaller', something of a similer camber to it, though Solar Knights is definetly going on the list. Honestly, naming characters and such has always been a bit of a roadblock. I can see the image of them in my minds eye, however no names seem to spring to mind for the most part unless I have a random 'eureka!' epiphany.

 

Cheers Grey.

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, if you're looking at heliocentric/heliocultist Chapters, you could do worse than looking at the Redemptors. Their cult of belief had quite a few subtle layers that I quite liked.

 

As for the knights, I've been working on IA: Sword Bearers with Midian. They're unquestionably a knightly Chapter, but we've chosen to express it in different ways. If anything, the Sword Bearers are like the idea of St. George and the Dragon - doing a difficult job, and doing it well. The Black Templars are dark and gritty, whilst Midian's Sword Bearers give off the bright and proud and shiny aspect of the knights. If the Templars are the knights in the desert, bringing justice to the 'holy land' as crusaders, the Sword Bearers are the knights jousting. They aren't rabid, frothing zealots; rather, they're proud and quietly faithful. They don't burn witches at the stake - after all, the Emperor was a psyker, and the Sword Bearers do utilise Librarians. They don't use an Emperor's Champion because every Marine is a Champion in His name.

 

I think it's easy to move away from the Templar aesthetic with work.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Thanks Mol, you've got a good handle on what I'm looking for. Though perhaps not quite being on-par with the Sword Bearers 'tournament' style, rather they are more like the christian knights fighting each other. There are no heretics there, no pope or clergy to appease, nothing except besting your opponent efficiently.

 

Good examples are the wide-ranging 'war-games' that the Christian Knights of Feudal Europe used to perform. They would ride out with their men-at-arms and battle against other lords, not for the purpose of killing their enemy, but to best them on the field of battle. The ultimate purpose being to capture an enemy lord, prince or king and ransom him. If he was a Knight he would usually pay with his steed and/or arms and armour, which could well ruin a poorer knight.

 

As an aside, even in real bloody warfare it was common for the knights, even if they charged into the thick of it, to come out of it breathing thanks to their money able to buy heavy armour. The commoners were the ones who got butchered, usually by each other. Ironically, this is very similar to warfare 40.000 years later.....

 

In any case I know what your getting at Mol and your about right.

 

Thanks for the input. ;)

[Lysimachus]

perhaps you could have the various strike-forces and/or companies you mentioned engaging in these kind of war-games against each other as part of their ongoing training? maybe even compete for (or be forced to ransom away) each others resources like tanks, master crafted weapons and arti armour, etc?

 

 

as a side point, hate to go off topic but it's really nice to get a taster of what Midian and Mol are coming up with for the Sword Bearers, sounds good, will we see it up in the Liber any time soon?

 

 

Lysimachus

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

perhaps you could have the various strike-forces and/or companies you mentioned engaging in these kind of war-games against each other as part of their ongoing training? maybe even compete for (or be forced to ransom away) each others resources like tanks, master crafted weapons and arti armour, etc?

 

I have to say I really like that idea. It works really well especially considered the honoured position such items hold within the chapter. I could easily see a certain named predator being swapped between many different companies in it's lifetime as the victors of certain wargames reap their rewards. I do think that too much though would breed discontent between the commanders unless handled properly. The men wouldn't be as affected because they are rotated between the companies anyway, and the wargear lost would not really be lost to anyone except the strike-force's commander.

 

That was a great idea Lysimachus, I really hadn't put the two together when I posted that earlier, odd as it may seem for someone so unbelievably amazing as myself. ^_^ :rolleyes:

[flameseeker574]

Hmm well personally Im guilty of the zealous knights type chapter, even the name is like the templars. As for name suggestions, how about "The Blazing Sons" nice little play on words there.

 

If you dont want to focus on the crusading aspect of knights, how about the economic/social system. You could have a chapter with say 7 companies(like the salamanders) and each company recruits from a certain area on the planet. Consequently each company would have a "mini monastery" in the recruiting region. And of course the captains of each company would pledge fealty to the chapter master, who might command the chapter from the chapter monastery proper. Reasons for this could be that the small rivalries between companies makes them fight/train harder.

 

As you can see there a many ways you can express your knightly backround, you can go neck deep in it like I did (link in sig) or you can pick and choose your favorite parts.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

If you dont want to focus on the crusading aspect of knights, how about the economic/social system. You could have a chapter with say 7 companies(like the salamanders) and each company recruits from a certain area on the planet. Consequently each company would have a "mini monastery" in the recruiting region. And of course the captains of each company would pledge fealty to the chapter master, who might command the chapter from the chapter monastery proper. Reasons for this could be that the small rivalries between companies makes them fight/train harder.

 

Thats good and is very close to what I was thinking. Each company recruits from a city on the planet and as such has a small fortress in each. Each company fortress is responsible for recruiting and outfitting members of their own company. I think the idea of wargames could fit in tightly with this, having the companies recruits train against each other.

 

I'm actually writing up my ideas for the homeworld in another window and have taken a second to reply here as I like this idea. I agree with the less companies approach, though I am thinking of having about six cities as the planet is very inhospitable and these existing cities survive only due to some tech left behind by the original colonists. As such the left over space in the Organisation Roster for the other four companies are taken up with Strike Forces (or similar as mentioned, I'm actually seeking a better name for them which fits with the theme but doesen't have 'crusade' in it.) which do most of the chapters campaigning. The 1st company resides in the Chapter Keep, though I'm thinking of reorganising the 1st company and command structure, but more on that later.

 

I was going to say something else but after sitting here for a few minutes trying to revive what it was I was thinking of saying, I'll leave it and see if it comes back to me. ;)

 

Thanks flameseeker574.

 

 

More ideas and thoughts please! This is all great stuff.

 

*edit: I updated the original post with my homeworld ideas*

[Ferrus Manus]

Society: The Six cities (Six or Seven?)

The 1st company resides in the Chapter Keep, though I'm thinking of reorganising the 1st company and command structure, but more on that later.

 

Your ideas on the Monasteries are good, but a little complex. So you have each of your 6 companies within their own city. But what about the First Company? Are they just another Battle Company? Or do they contain the best and brightest from the other companies? Either way you say the reside in the Chapter Keep. But surely each of the Company Monasteries is a Chapter Keep?

 

Just some food for thought.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Essentially the first company is the same as every other first company. They hold the Honour Guard, Veterans, dreadnoughts and command staff.

 

The reason I was thinking of reorganising it was because the first company would be spread throughout the strike forces, and as such would not be able to hold down a chapter keep.

 

Either way you say the reside in the Chapter Keep. But surely each of the Company Monasteries is a Chapter Keep?

 

Yes and no. I would say each Company fortress is like what the Black Templars build on worlds they pacify and recruit from. It's a small, formidable fortress that holds everything that company needs in order to function, along with that companies garrison of serfs and recruits.

 

I was going to have a proper chapter keep, an actual, dedicated fortress instead of the smaller structures in the cities. but with the first company debacle and/or reorganisation I'm not sure if that would work anymore. I'll have to see what ideas I have during the week.

 

Also while the culture doesen't seem too knightly at the moment, I am adding a Warrior Order that was founded in such and such a year for the purpose of fighting the raiders. More structured information to come.

 

Good spotting Ferrus, thanks.

 

*edit*

"The Blazing Sons"

 

I like that, a lot. I havent even touched on a name yet so that goes straight to the top of the list. Thanks for that!

[Donkey Kong]

Maybe when selecting a chapter master each of the companies selects their champion to fight with the others, sort of a tournament. To be honest, I think that competition for armor and support is silly, no matter how much competition or rivalry you have with your battle brothers, you want them to succeed to give you a good name. If they're competing for a relic helm or sword or iron halo, that's all well and good, but when one company has all the vindicators and the company at the siege is a couple hundred light years away, it gets kind of screwy.

 

I second The Blazing Sons. Also, the Zweihänders :) .