the jeske Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 the termicide sqauds don't live long enough one turn is all chaos needs. because it catches peoples eyes, and simple psychology says that when done properly, this simple element makes them infinitly more distracting than terminators. no offense , but do you play against noobs ? anyone who does play tests knows what is the destruction lvl of a all the units in most power builds . there is no way your going to make someone shot at your model just because its bigger [and how can something plastic be scary :huh: ]. Sun Tzu tells us that wars are won and fought not in the field of battle, but in the hearts and minds of the men fighting them 0_o what does that have to do with table top games. Also wars are not there to win stuff[you cant win wars when the top dogs can auto kill each other] . wars are there to sell stuff . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1908031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 first off, no i play tournaments, and win fairly often. secondly, i find the art of war to be a huge help in understanding of the psychology of warfare, and in turn, anything mimicing or involving warfare (from first person shooters to table top miniature games) as it helps you much more deeply understand how people work and respond, and if you can predict how people with act, you can force them into situations that are most advantagous to you, and screw them out of things quite easily. also, by playing up the psychological element with the dread, you can easily inspire fear, and i usually find the 100 point combat machine is cheaper than the termicide monitarily (as i use converted loyalist dreads). thats all man. and as for how i know this, i've done several case studies on this, and how certain units can elisit certain responses by other players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1908055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spareknikov Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I love Dreadnoughts, but I've never had any problems with my little-big guys personally. :P But a friend of mine in our last battle did :) He rolled a 1. Subsequently his Multi-Melta armed Dread' turned and fired on his Land Raider, destroying it whilst it had a squad of Termies inside! :D It was on the first turn too! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1910280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 There's an interesting discussion going on over at DakkaDakka that suggests that we may be mis-interpreting the fire frenzy rule. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232266.page The basic premise of the argument is that since in 5th edition for vehicles line of sight and weapon firing arc are the same thing that dread will shoot the nearest unit in their fire arc at the beginning of the shooting phase, not the nearest unit to them on the board that isn't fully obscured as it is usually played. Perhaps this was the original rules as intended? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1910338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 The basic premise of the argument is that since in 5th edition for vehicles line of sight and weapon firing arc are the same thing that dread will shoot the nearest unit in their fire arc at the beginning of the shooting phase, not the nearest unit to them on the board that isn't fully obscured as it is usually played. Perhaps this was the original rules as intended? - You could make that arguement and perhaps get your opponent to buy it. But even then the fact would remain that you would be in control of your chaos dread only 66% of the time. A while ago I tried to put the dread back in my army list and used several different strategeries, b/c I have a nicely converted one, but they are just to undependable for my taste, even in friendly games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1910412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 yeah thats the real problem with dreads . I mean they dont do much hurt with shoting anyway , the main problem is that they can do nothing for one turn . you put it to counter someonething or want to target a specific target and it doesnt . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1910500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Oh, i agree. But its not as bad still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1910543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 indeed, for a hundred points, if it does much of anything, its paid for itself. plus give it a dccw and missle, fire frags at freindlies, and fire kraks at enenmies. i played tau yesterday, and my dread killed 2 piranahas, stripped a hammerhead of the big gun, and at a unit of fire warriors, all while contesting an objective, and all for a hundred points. it lived all game, despite being shot a bunch, and helped me win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1910556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_wu Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I think they are ok I just have not had that good luck with them. The missile launcher ones do not shoot long enough. They still can be good if they get into cc and cannot be hurt by a squad. I have thought of gifting a unit with a powerfist and then sending a dreadnought into them. That could be funny. It also is like the Tellion dread trick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutt-Man! Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I still stand by my tried and true DCCW+Missile Launcher Dread and my pure double DCCW dread. Pick frag missiles when firing, and a rhino/dread buddy near it makes it completely harmless when it wigs-out. It has been my dread's saving grace, and it retains a good deal of capability for its cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Thats the main allure of the Dreadnought, you're getting a decent unit for a bargain price. The drawback is naturally that it doesn't do exactly what you want 33% of the time so its hard to say whether or not the reduced price is worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Oh, i agree. But its not as bad still. thats mega uber bad to use net speak . I mean for me it means I have to babysit each and every dreadnought with another units , because I never know if they wont go crazy and instead of charging the stealer/guants/meq and holding them away from an objective for a turn or two they shot with their twin linked bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Oh, i agree. But its not as bad still. thats mega uber bad to use net speak . I mean for me it means I have to babysit each and every dreadnought with another units , because I never know if they wont go crazy and instead of charging the stealer/guants/meq and holding them away from an objective for a turn or two they shot with their twin linked bolters. No i meant that with the alternative interpretation of the rule i was mentioning dreads arn't as bad as they are with the regular interpretation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathsHead Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I generally fall in with the "They suck, and if they don't suck, it's because you found an inefficient and awkward workaround - which means that they suck" crowd. And that's a shame, because I love the concept, and I love the models (the Forgeworld variety, anyway). My question is, what sort of rules tweak would it take to make this unit really useful and intimidating, or at least functional within its stated role (hard-as-nails squad level firepower and close-combat support)? Faster movement, more armor, more firepower, different 'frenzy' rules, whatever - what would it take? I'm particularly interested in your thoughts, Jeske, because you seem to have a very solid grasp on the interaction between units and meta-game factors. By the way, I don't have my codex handy, but I'm pretty sure that we're not 'misinterpreting' any rules, fellas. I believe the entry in the codex says something about "pivoting on the spot". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsuicidekingx Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I'm one of those people that have had zero luck with them. I stopped using them when i rolled a 1 for the first 4 turns in two consecutive games. I parked a rhino in front of him and had him shoot at that the whole game. Personally i get way more luck out of a daemon prince at staying around longer and doing more damage for relatively the same number of points. It is such a cool idea fluff wise that they go crazy, but i just have zero luck with them and can not think of a game in recent memory that i put one in that he didn't spend at least one turn standing there like a goof. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1911639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 My question is, what sort of rules tweak would it take to make this unit really useful and intimidating, or at least functional within its stated role (hard-as-nails squad level firepower and close-combat support)? Faster movement, more armor, more firepower, different 'frenzy' rules, whatever - what would it take?Have D.Possession ignore the frenzy table (or remove it altogether) + raise the dread's WS OR front (only) armour value by 1.Then I would use them again. My 2 Kraks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 My question is, what sort of rules tweak would it take to make this unit really useful and intimidating, or at least functional within its stated role (hard-as-nails squad level firepower and close-combat support)? Faster movement, more armor, more firepower, different 'frenzy' rules, whatever - what would it take? I'm particularly interested in your thoughts, Jeske, because you seem to have a very solid grasp on the interaction between units and meta-game factors. Honestly all they have to do for me is not target my own troops. If you roll fire frenzy, then you target the closest thing to you and fire twice. Its kind of like the Ork Tankbusta rule, you don't get to choose what you fire at (which is bad enough) but atleast you aren't blasting your own stuff. I understand that the pilots are bat guano insane, but as it is its more Orky than Chaosy to be charging around or gunning down your own troops. I find it somewhat disappointing that bolting a Gretchin or Ork into their Dreadnoughts yields a more reliable weapon than a Space Marine, insane or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutt-Man! Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Dreadnoughts fitted with other weapons work well if you use a stand and shoot army, only marching the dread(s) forward. That lowers the risk enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Make them another 15 or 20 points cheaper and then an upgrade that removes the insanity but cost 15 or 20 points. Drop pods would also make them worthwhile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalodon Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Drop pods would also make them worthwhile. QFT, hopefully Planet Strike will solve this situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Drop pods would also make them worthwhile. QFT, hopefully Planet Strike will solve this situation. At least in Apocalypse you can dreadclaw them :< and If Fury of the ancients says any dreadnought variant (can't remember what it says), you could flank march a whole load into someone's side or rear. Not very helpful in a standard game I know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 All the suggestions made so far are good. I don't remember exactly what the "dread gone crazy" rules were in C:csm 3.5, but I know they weren't as bad as now b/c I still used dreads in 3.5 dex. So I would probably use them again (at least sometimes), if they went back to 3.5 dread rules. - I really don't see any reason the dread gone crazy rules. Don't see why csm's whould treat their dreads any differently then they did b4 the heresy or any different then s/m's do, esp if it caused them to go crazy and become basicly useless. They didn't make their LR's or rinos or preds less useful for the sake of being chaotic, did they ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Remember that a stock loyalist dread has 1 less attack and is only 5 points more expensive with comparable wargear. So we get 1 extra cc attack, slightly more versatile weapon options, and 5 points in return for being insane. But of course we don't have Iron Clads or ven dreads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 And that's a shame, because I love the concept, and I love the models (the Forgeworld variety, anyway). then play chaoszilla . 2 DPs , 2 defielers 2 dreads 2 pms squads and 1 demon squad . Its a list very different from the chaos we see normally and for me it has a very chaos demons army list feel to it . as the dread goes , its all wish thinking and there isnt much you can legally do about dreads . I see it this way . Chaos sm are not orks , we dont run 200 models [what allows you to cover the bases with one or two random units] in one army. dreads are not a very shoty unit [at least not without possession] they are all about HtH . more armor would be nice , but I would rather like to see a change to the frenzy rules [the old ones were ok]. As other said chaos dreadnought only drop pods could be interesting , pts are more or less ok right now , they arent over costed , but I would pay more pts for them , if I could get more control over the unit. They didn't make their LR's or rinos or preds less useful for the sake of being chaotic, did they ? well in the new dex they kind of a did . the machine spirit in LR went crazy and just like orks who loot LR , each and every csm LR has no machine spirit :woot:/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1912997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 So we get 1 extra cc attack, slightly more versatile weapon options, and 5 points in return for being insane. My gut instinct is to go with 2 ranged weapons, as a Walker platform allows you to move and fire 2 weapons, something you can't do with a Predator. However does that end up wasting the extra attack and the benefits if you blood rage? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157738-chaos-dreadnoughts/page/2/#findComment-1913313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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