Help with Thousand Sons!

[tedwin183]

So I have played Thousand Sons 2 times now and both times I've lost. Now, I am fully aware these guys are basically built to kill SM, what with their ap3 bolters, invuln saves, fearless, etc. I am looking for a rematch now, as I nearly won last night, but couldn't pull it out in turn 6. We're playing 2000 points and from what I can tell, he's fielding:

 

Defiler with TLLC, Battlecannon, extra cc arm.

Predator with TLLC, LC sponsons

3 full tac squads with sorcerers with...i don't remember what psychic abilities...

a Havok squad 2 LC 2 Autocannons and a powerfist.

Ahriman

 

 

The whole army is just decked out with almost every kind of upgrade he can give them.

 

I brought a good army. Well balanced.

 

Chapter master w/plas pistol and PW

3 tac squads, 2 with ML flamer, 1 with HB, PG, PF, rhino.

1 sternguard squad all with bolters, rhino.

1 assault squad, 2 flamers, PW

1 cc scout squad, outflanking, 5 BP/CCW, 5 Shotty

1 dev squad, 2 LC, 1 PC, 1 HB, serg and 5 normal guys.

1 Predator w/autocannon, HB sponsons, chronus

1 Whirlwind

 

 

The whirlwind did great. It got it's points back in one round of shooting and continued to pick off 1 or 2 guys out of the squads each round it shot. The predator did some good, though he generally kept everything out of sight/range of the predator. The big nasty thing he did was hold everything in reserve because I won the roll, and the deployment was DOW, annihilation. My scouts ended up coming in on an unsupported table edge right by his defiler/predator, so i spent a couple movement phases scooting them around, trying not to get them shot to pieces. The sternguard flopped. They got tons of hits, tons of wounds rapid firing hellfire rounds into a full squad of Thousand Sons, but did 2 wounds. The dude seriously made, like 10 armour saves out of 12. Lastly, my assault squad just couldn't win fights. They ran a couple of times, rallied and came back for more...but could never finish what they started.

 

Seriously, any critique on my list, my play, some suggestion on tactics, whatever, I'd be most appreciative.

[greatcrusade08]

I gave this some thought a few wekks back, as a freind of mine is assembling a 1Ksons army...

Basically as you say his main adavantage is AP3 bolters, so try to nullify his advantage, take things with a 2+ save, so termies, honour guard and HQ with artificer armour are all in play, and also with the exception of his sorcers and tanks, he will have very littlle anti-tank, so drop some dreads down.....

 

Another point to make is that the Rubrics may be hard to kill, but are essentially useless in CC, so use this to your advantage.

 

Personally against this many rubrics and sorcerers id take a libby with tda and storm shield and give him null zone, maybe some assault termies as back up....

 

GC08

[Warp Angel]

Your list has no Killers.

 

You've got plenty of stand and shoot (firebase), plenty of units that can sit on objectives (defender), some adequate hunters (sternguard), but nothing, that by itself, can kill an enemy unit in a reasonable timeframe.

 

You're also set up to be completely vulnerable to his rapid fire shooting because your only mobility is Rhinos and Assault Marines. Both of those units spend at least one turn where their 3+ save means nothing. Cover saves if they're lucky, but that's 17% more casualties than they should be taking.

 

Terminators are going to be both killers AND immune to the AP3 bolters.

 

Land Raiders look to be immune to just about everything but the Defiler and the Predator, and can kill either of them more easily than they can kill it.

 

From a Killhammer perspective, your army is completely unable to generate a Kill Gap by shooting or CC, because you lack the ability to remove his offensive capability faster than he removes yours.

 

I'm really not sure how to remedy it without rewriting your list. It's almost a perfect example of why you'll never catch me playing a 'gunline' style list that relies on numbers of Marines to accomplish what more Elite and killy units can do faster - even if they don't last as long.

[tedwin183]

Looking back on it, I really think terminators and a godhammer LR would have helped me out a lot. I may well drop the scouts and 1 of the tac squads and maybe the whirlwind in favor of some termies and the LR. He does have quite a few lascannons on the board though...2 TLLC, 2 regular sponson LC and 2 in his havok squad.

[greatcrusade08]

A lascannon still needs a 6 to pen a LR, if you upgrade with chronus, you will ignore stunned/shaken and will get BS5 for shooting your own lascannons back :wacko:

If you wanted to be really nasty stick a large unit of honour guard and a chapter master in the LR.....surprise....

 

GC08

[Koremu]

Chronus in a Land Raider is an evily effective tactic :)

[Sigismund's Ghost]

Screen an assault squad with your rhinos. Do the standard rapid fire with the tac boys, then jump over with the assault squad and tie them up. Rinse and repeat. Terminators are effective as well, but there are mobility issues.

[Reinholt]

My thoughts:

 

1 - What you would want to be doing is assaulting his thousand sons with your tactical squads. T-Sons are better in shooting and more expensive than Tacticals, so you'd want to tie him up as efficiently as possible to lock down those units from shooting. However, you don't seem to have power weapons or power fists in your tactical squads (which is literally a reduction in combat effectiveness against other marines by about 50%), so you're best tactic is also the one you aren't equipped for... get some power weapons and fists, and get in his face.

 

Edit - I also can't tell if you mean all of them have rhinos, or only one. If you take tactical squads, I think it's folly to take them without a rhino, razorback, or drop pod. Their strengths are short range firepower and comparative assault ability against most foes, yet leaving them footslogging actively denies those strengths because they can't get to where they need to be! If you only have one rhino, you need more transports.

 

2 - Use the rhinos to screw with the thousand sons. You should be able to keep them screened, and they don't have the firepower to ding a rhino. Literally just repeatedly park them in front of the T-Sons to block line of sight.

 

3 - Use the Sternguard and Assault squad in tandem; the same turn the Sternguard unload and rapid fire the crap out of a squad, the assault squad either needs to charge in to finish that squad off, or charge in on a nearby squad that would have been the one returning fire on the Sternguard. If you use them both together as a hammer, you're in good shape.

 

4 - Whirlwinds and Predator Destructors have always underwhelmed me against marines. Especially with the Chronus upgrade. Replace them with a pair of Vindicators and watch your opponent run scared.

 

5 - I don't like Dev squads because they are highly static, and you're going to want to blast his defiler (and to a lesser extent, his predator) out of the game as quickly as possible. I'd suggest replacing them with multiple attack bikes or land speeders with multi-meltas so you can get your anti-tank where you want it, on demand, and then demolish his armor immediately.

[tedwin183]

Those are all very good suggestions, but I have to admit...changing my setup to the one listed directly above would cost me 150 bucks or so. I have no vindicators and I have 2 rhinos as of right now. I'm currently getting an 8 man bike squad together that will have a powerfist, melta and either a flamer or plas gun in it. I may skip the special weapons though, or at least keep them cheap. all the TL bolter rounds I think will be plenty of anti horde/softening before the charge.

 

I think everyone is right in saying that it's best to tie these guys up in cc as soon as possible. I can't just roam rhinos around the battle field without consequence though. He does have lascannons in a havok squad, in an annihilator pred and on his defiler. He seems to have better than average rolls in general...so there's that...

[asur03]

My roommate plays Chaos marines so I face them quite often. A few things to note about them in general;

 

- Point for point they're better than C:SM. They come equipped with a bolter, bp and ccw giving them the best of both worlds. They generally have better leadership and are going to murder you in CC most of the time. Luckily for your he is playing Thousand Sons which isn't as CC oriented.

 

- They also have the ability to take two special weapons in tac squads which makes them more versatile in build out than C:SM. What I'm getting at is that we can only take one special weapon and one heavy weapon. This forces you to "combat squad" to maximize the effectiveness of the tactical squad. Chaos can run two hard hitting special weapons without losing the volume of attacks / shots with 10 marines.

 

About your list;

 

1) Without mobility / transport your Chapter Master will be sitting around for far too long. I assume you took the Master for the S10 death from above which is going to force him to sit still for a turn. So, with your current build you are wasting the points on the points on your CC wargear. Give him a purpose. If he's going to sit back and direct the attack, give him a Hellfire rounds and a bolter. Also, I just don't like the Plasma Pistol for it's points regardless of what you're doing with him. Try a RB, TH / SS or LCs if you're going to put him in CC.

 

2) You are playing against T4 3++ marines. A flamer just isn't going to do much damage. The number one problem with it is that it requires you to get close. Granted it auto hits but you open yourself up to AP3 fire if you're not assaulting. I find that you want to cause as many wounds as possible so doing so on a 2+ with your special weapons.

 

3) Against other marines I like to use melta. It insta-kills and gives you effective anti-tank. Consider loading out your tacticals with MM and MGs. Plasma is OK but it's risky, it doesn't insta-kill, is only good against light armor and doesn't allow you to assault. Also, remember you are facing invul saves so the AP doesn't matter.

 

4) With the assault squard I would run a PF rather than a PW. It's mobility will allow you to go after enemy tanks and characters. PW against other marines aren't as good because you're looking at 4+ to wound. As above, he's getting saves no matter what so effectively a PW is just a normal CCW.

 

5) If you are going to take scouts, make them do one job. Do all BP / CCW or all bolter or sniper rifles. I think I would drop them but if you want to use them, make sure they're effective at one thing.

 

6) On the Dev squad, mixing weapons is a bad idea. If you want anti-troop stick to HB in this case. If you want anti-tank use ML or LC. Against this particular army I would not use PC for the reasons stated above.

 

7) Whirlwinds are ineffective against Marines. I like the Predator but you could consider getting another support option. You mentioned a limited availability of selection and funds. Consider buying a Librarian to Gate your Sternguard, freeing up a Rhino for your Tacs. (I agree with Reinholt; footslogging goes against the point of Tacs to begin with. Also, against this opponent it leaves you vulnerable to a lot of AP3 fire) You could buy a Vindicator or another Predator to replace the WW. These two purchases might be a little more within budget.

 

All this being said, it looks like you're actually in good shape against this opponent as he isn't taking advantage of Chaos' main strength IMHO. He could be running 1-2 more Tac squads against you which you be very difficult to deal with. The Defiler should be an easy target early on to get rid of the battle cannon. The second priority should be immobilizing his Tac squads if they aren't footslogging. Then depending on setup you can take out another support choice in the Predator or Havocs.

 

- For What It's Worth

[minigun762]

3 full tac squads with sorcerers with...i don't remember what psychic abilities...

 

A key thing to consider is that Thousand Sons die to regular weapons just like normal Marines. Volley of fire can easily kill them. Now this doesn't mean stand there and fire into them and let them fire into you because their AP3 will mean you lose that trade. However Heavy Bolters, Plasma Cannons, Flamers (if you hit enough models) anything that forces them to take alot of armor/Inv saves will work out well for you.

 

Your Tacticals are just as good as Thousand Sons in close combat, they get 1 attack and so do you. They have a built in Sorcerer with a Force Weapon so unless you gang up on them with multiple squads or bring in a Power Fist Champion. However if the choice is rapid firing or assaulting, assault them because they're scarier at range then in combat.

 

Aim the Whirlwind and Predator at the Havocks, they'll be in cover but that won't matter since nothing you have is AP3. Just keeping hitting them and hope to kill them off. Your Devs should fire at the Defiler first and then Thousand Sons, honestly the 3 LasCannons Predator isn't much of a threat, it will snipe some Marines but if they're in cover, it will have a hard time killing its points worth.

[Race Bannon]

I can say for a fact that the above suggestions work against 1K Sons. My games have been few against this army but having tried some suggestions (luck/fate as a variable on the side), the Sons can be defeated with less stress than I had before.

 

This is not to say the army is suddenly weak. But with the correct application of resources, the game is less lop-sided in their favor because of their "tricks".

[Brother Gathurn]

If your going to take Sterngaurd take tigirious. HE will help against those sorcerers. Then take another unupgraded libby or one with termy armour with more termies.