paulson games Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 I prime the models black, I've fopund that gray primer is usually pretty crappy and white is too bright and takes more time to cover it also has problems with consistancy sometimes. These particlar models I'd primed a while ago using the standard chaos black spray, GW makes a good primer although it's a bit pricey. When I do the HQ guys and special characters I usually prime them by hand, it takes a lot longer but the paint is more consistant and that I don't get any grittiness or thick spots on the paint. I also try and use a new paint pot when I can, gummy paint sucks and I spent years struggling with junky paints until I realised it's not worth it and just top buy a couple new jars when I'm starting a project. Templars don't have a huge range of colors so it runs maybe 20-30 to get new paints. On some of the newly assembled models I switched to using "painter's touch flat black" spray paint which is available at home depot, has a blue label with some furniture on it. I used to use krylon but home depot apparently doesn't carry it anymore. It has a very smooth texture to the paint and applies better as the spry nozzle has a slightly wider design than standard cans, also it's very good for applying at odd angles where standard cans might not give the right flow. The best part about it is that the cans are $3 as opposed the the $12 that GW wants. I just bought an airbrush which I'll be using on the thunderhawk, I picked up a testors brand mighty mini which has a compressor built into it for $89. It's probably the cheapest compressor avilable, I would have bought the blue model which is the next step up that sells for about $150 but they didn't have it at the time and I'm impulsive so I wanetd one then and there. The airbrush is a bit thin and has a small paint resivoir but it works. Also you can fit the GW airbrush onto it if you want a heavier feeling gun with more capacity. The GW gun is good but the compressed air cans don't go any further than a spray paint can and actually cost more than stuff at home depot. If you plan on doing vehicles an airbrush is the way to go, it's better for the enviroment and you can paint inside because it doesn't stink like spray paint. Just make sure you have the area covered in newspaper and have a cardboard spray box set up. It's a bit exspensive initally but if you are doing an army worth of models it quickly pays for itself, you never run out of air, and you can do shading and blending details that you could never do by hand. As for the colors, The armor is based with chaos black, and then very lightly drybrushed with a 50/50 mx of fortress grey and chaos black then an even lighter/finer drybrushing of codex grey on the highest areas. The underlying fortess grey gives it slighty blue black tone which helps give the illusion of a black surface rather than just a dark silouette. The edges look almost as though they were lined but is much smoother than what I can normally do with lining. The sholder pads started with chaos black, and then built up with mechrite red foundation paint, follwed by red gore and khador red from P3. I left a thin black line where the edges of the armor color come together. Added dehab stone and then a mix of skull white and menoth highlight from P3 which is basically a pure white like skull but has a better pigment and coverage quality. I had to touch up the black lining several times during the process but it comes out very clean. I used a combination of flesh wash and brown ink on the tunics, but didn't wash the armor at all relying strictly on drybrushing to distingush the recesses. The studs are straight mithril silver with a tiny dab of black ink painted around the base. The gold chains dwarf bronze highlighted with burnished gold and a tiny amount of brown ink painted over it. The joints which aren't really visable in the pics are drybrushed with boltgun metal, which I applied before drybrushing the rest of the armor, that way I didn't get any silver over brushing on the armor. I carefully lined the joints with black ink, using it straight outof the pot instead of using it as a wash that way it has a slightly shiny reflective quality to it that looks like synthetic material or rubber. Then to brighten the ribbing I dryburshed a 50/50 mix of boltgun and mithril silver. For drybrushing I have a fat round brush that has the bristles cut even so there's no points, after a whipe on a paper towel to remove most of the excess paint I test it against the skin of my hand and only when it leaves the faintest trace I can see or feel is it fine enough. It's a bit messy but it works for me. Whenever I try to guage the paint by eye alone I always mess it up. After everything is done I go back and re-apply very fine lines of black ink at the joints and recesses in the armor if needed. One thing I'd highly recommend is the privateer press P3 wet pallette, that thing is amazing, I cannot stress how awesome it is for getting just the right paint consistancy and getting incredibly smooth paint without it getting watery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortsonfire79 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I've primed a couple of things black by hand(shoulder pads..random areas) and they always tend to peel...before I finish painting the model..which is before I put a finish on them...Do you ever run into this problem? And how would you solve it, without putting a finish on them before the rest of the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 I rarely seal my stuff as the normally clear seal coat tends to yellow slightly over time, not normally noticeable except on the areas that are super white. Normal reasons paint would peel can be from cold, high heat or direct sunlight can cause paint to blister even when dry, leaving it in a car during the summer or winter could cause paint to come up. Also sometimes plastic has mould release agents left over from manufacturing, resin almost always does which is why most modelling sites recommend washing them before painting. Also how new/fresh are the paints? Any of those might be possible factors. Do you live in an area with high humidty? If moisture were getting back into the paint I could see that happening. If the area isn't allowed to dry long enough the paint can reabsorb moisture from any layers you're trying to paint over the top. When I hand prime I usually let the model dry for about 24hrs or longer as I've noticed it has a tacky/gummy feel if I try and paint sooner. If it wasn't dry all the way I've had it bleed through, and ocassionally clump up under the new paint. I don't recall it ever peeling away, although back before I used let stuff sit over night it may have happened I just don't remember. Once or twice when I was working and reworking the same area with coat after coat I've had paint come off, as the moisture managed to bleed back into the base layer, but that was using paint that was overly watered down and trying to apply multiple layers in a rush job. Now I try not to do more than one layer at a time, I use much thinner layers than I used to (which dry quicker) and I do one area then let it sit for a while while I work on a differant model or a completely differant are of the model. Lately I've gotten in the habit of working on 3-5 minis at a time in an assembly line that way the colors are all consistant and it allows each model to dry while I'm working through the group. When I drybrush I also let the model dry for a few hours, or even overnight. It may not seem like it but it does add a significant amount of moisture to the surface which could bleed back into the primer layer. I've found that if I drybrush a second or third layer too soon the high point areas on the model will rub off. Also whenever I spray prime models I let them sit for a full day sometimes two, most spray paint is enamel based so it won't reabsorb moisture like arcrylic paint hand based stuff will, but it stays tacky/gummy for a long time. I found that privateer press P3 wet palette has been amazing, it lets you get very thin smooth paint without adding too much water into the mix. I definately noticed a change in my painting quality since I started using it, ands it's probably the best tool you can use for painting after the brushes themself. I've had far fewer problems with paint since then, and also I started using a bunch of their paints as they have a better pigment and coverage factor for the reds and whites. Drying time sucks as you usually want to work on models now, but it can't be rushed which is why I try to assemble and prime my models in big groups, that way I always have more primed models than what I'm currently working on, and when I need to let the new layer dry I can keep the paint bug going and pick up a differant set of guys to work on while the first set dries. I spent the better part of 5 hrs hand priming 3 squads of terminators, last week it was a chore but I didn't want to ruin good exspensive models by messing up with spray paint, I have a terrible curse with spray paint coming out gritty. I let them dry for a coupel days while I was working on my regular troops. I guess they advice is not to rush the drying time and stagger how you work on the models so you are always working on dry paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortsonfire79 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I'd hate to keep posting in your thread, to assume hacking..but I think that this should maybe be addressed here, since it pertains to what your methods are. Like, on corners of things, and on the shoulder pads with bumps, for example. It just rubs off while I paint the rest of the model. I put a seal on them waayy after I finish, so I can do bulk. I live in Cali, 40 mins drive from San Francisco, so no humidity, no extreme heat or cold, and my room gets the sun on the other side of the room. I've never transported my army (I've never played a game). And I only sometimes wash models when I'm positive that theres been a agent on it, my Vasaline for example. I haven't had to use resin yet, but I know the ways I'm supposed to attack it. My paints aren't OLD, because black is something I'll go through quite frequently. Probably 4-5 months..at most. And I've only hand painted a few things, but every time (all from different sprues) they start to rub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 I don't mind the posts as I'm glad to help. When you hand prime are you watering the paint mix down or painting straight from the pot? Handpriming I tend to paint straight for the pot so that it has a undiluted consistancy, also changing the paint line may help p3 black or a vallejo black might work better than the GW stuff, GW paints are good for blending and layering but aren't the best for using in their raw form. The wash phase is a major part, I hate washing but ift's pretty much required for hand basing, even if you can't feel the oils they are there. You also leave behind traces amounts of oil/fingerprints when building the model, after washing I only handle the models by the base and sometimes attach a cork to the base with blue tack to help hold it. It might be possible to be unconciously rubbing paint off the high points by the way you hold it, one of my friends has that tendancy by the way he grips his models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortsonfire79 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Straight from the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 If it doesn't occur with sprayed painted models I'd suspect it may be oils, spray paint has a differant chemical solvent that keeps the paint liquid, that solvent reacts with and eats away most minor surface oils so it will adhere where the solvents in acrylic paints are water based and won't grip those types of surfaces very well. When washing makes sure it's rinsed thoroughly as soap can leave a film, alternately you can try an alcohol based cleaner which will evaporate without any residue. (simply green, windex window cleaner, or plain old rubbing alcohol) Hard water can also change paint qualities if it's particulary bad, or in theory if it leaves deposit residue on the plastic when washed. The tap water at my work is kinda funky so I usually just grab a cup from the water cooler instead. Outside of drying time, surface oils, or abrasion from contact I have no idea what'd cause it to peel or come off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortsonfire79 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Spray works fine, so its probably the oils like you say. I don't normally wash my minis. Cool beans, thanks for helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 oops double posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have a couple black reach dreadnoughts onhand so I decided to see what I could do to make a special character dread for the templars. It doesn't look like much at the moment, my progress was a lot slower than what I wanted, but upsizing the model takes time and the replacing leg actuators with scratch parts is a royal pain. I increased the length of the legs but almost a 1/3 of an inch and when all is said and done he'll probably be standing about 3/4 of an inch taller than the standard dread, and will be quite a bit wider. I broke one of my core rules for my army and went out of range for the axe hand, but there weren't a lot of options using GW componants., oh well at least the rest of it will be stock. Anyways here's the in progress work so far. Body http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210453.JPGhttp://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210456.JPGhttp://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210454.JPG Leg Actuator http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210455.JPG Still not complete as I need to add a second set of round bits to the piston at the base of the ankle, and will be extending the shin's armored cowel. Axe Arm http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210452.JPGhttp://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210457.JPGhttp://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/P1210458.JPG The axe hand is from privateer press's Drago warjack model (khador) It's simply an awesome sculpt and even has templarish chains built in, I was initally hesitant about using it but I'm fairly happy with it now that the work is done. I will be converting the axe's shaft to look much closer to the templar axe that is on the conversion sprue. I'm still deciding what to do with the right arm, if I pick up a forge world close combat arm I can have him weilding 2 axes although that may look a bit odd. Alternately I can give him a large tower sheild, or go with a more standard weapon arm posisbly a twin linked assault cannon or heavy flamer. I'll have to bulk out the right arm slightly to maintain balance as the left arm is much longer than the normal dread arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targol Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Very nice conversion work here ! About the dread arm, did you plan to extend the chain to link the axe to the hand ? I think this should look great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thranquil Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Another huge axe would look good. Yes it could look Khornate, but it could also look very Crusader-ry. Thranquil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay79 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I love those dreadnought conversions so far. Excellent work. I think I'll buy an AoBR dread soon as well and hack him up... see what I can do. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 The chain I'll probably extend over the back of wrist and leave hanging loose, while the chain on the hand and wristed is sculpted on, there's a seperate bit on the back of the hand with the broken link which is not actually part of the hand sculpt. In warmachine Drago is a bloodcrazed killing machine that's kept chained up until it's meant to be unleashed, even his handelers are afraid of him and his broken chains are from when he busts loose. I want to borrow from that a little bit and mix it up a bit, templars sport their chained weapons to signify their duty to the emperor that only death itself can end, the broken chain will symbolise that the dread is an entombed templar that fell in battle. He's going to figure prominantly in my crusades background fluff, the name of my crusade is "invictus" which is latin for unbroken or unconquered. The dread will house the crusade's original founder who's mortal body was shattered and slain, but his spirit refuses to surrender, thus he lives on entombed within the dreadnought with broken chains. There's also a very fitting poem by that name Invictus Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds, and shall find, me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul. As for the other modeling aspects, I was toying with cutting the legs at the hip joint so that he can be reposed to be taking a step rather than standing staticly, but it will require extra work with replacing the hoses and reposistion everything. I'm not sure how well that will work with how the ankle joints are constructed so I'm not sure if I want to do that conversion or not. The connection pieces for the arm is going to be extended with some metal or plastic washers, depending on what I can find at home depot. The hoses coming from the sarcophagus and connecting to the torso will eventually be replaced with guitar wire. And I plan on placing lots of purity seals all over. Also the face plate will be replaced with the BT one from the conversion sprue which is why the other one is ground down. I had it glued in place loosely so I could remove it if need while working on the body, because of the weak glue it popped off before I took pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmperorsChampion Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just a quick question about your emperor's champ and chaplain. Are they based off the same legs or body? Maybe its just me, but I'm slightly bothered by their similar poses. They still look like quite the BAMFs but I'm a big fan of individualizing my characters in pose and body type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadeath Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 His chaplain is the Chaplain Grimaldus miniture(moded) and his EC what looks to be a moded Sword brethren from the sword brethren box set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yeah the models are two differant base models, as noted the chaplain is a moded grimaldus, and emperor's champion is from the sword brethern. The poses are quite close though, as I modified them at differant times I didn't notice how close their poses were unil I went to base them I was like odd they are both pointing and standing nearly identically. Originally the sword bethern model is looking to his left instead of ahead which breaks up the pose a bit. Not much I can do about the simular poses without choosing a differant base model for my emperor's champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmperorsChampion Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ah, silly me. Great models regardless of my neurotic commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Took a slight break from the dreadnought to do some painting, worked on a second full squad of initiates. I need to go in and finish the eyes and highlights, also need to finish the weapons with another wash and highlighting, but not bad progress for about 3 hours time. Skipped the wash on the tabard pieces this time around as it made things look to gritty and the wash was leaving rings when it dried instead darkening the entire recess evenly. Instead I painted two darker paint mixes right into the folds of the cloak, the darkest layer first then working to a lighter and then up to straight bleached bone for the final layer. I may still add some final highlights with a mix of skull white. Also when flipping through the codex last night I noticed I had made an error with the sholder pads, technically the red outlining is for assault marines/fast attack, while these are close combat squads they technically aren't assault marines. It's a very minor thing and I like the red trim for the appearance, not sure if I'll change them to black or leave them as is. When I get around to the bolter squads those will have the standard black trim for sure. http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/2squad4.JPG http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/2squad1.JPG http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/2squad2.JPG http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/2squad3.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Mick Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Good looking mini`s good job :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Here's a couple more shots of the overall progress, not the most exciting stuff but figured since I had the camera out I'd get a few more pics. I didn't shoot any of the stuff that's still in primer or bare plastic (which there's tons of) all of this stuff at least has some paint beyond primer. Overall shot: http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/btgroup1.JPG Stuff that's table ready or very close to: http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/btgroup2.JPG Stuff that needs a bunch of work: http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/btgroup3.JPG http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/btgroup4.JPG http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/btgroup5.JPG http://www.paulsongames.instantecom.net/i/warhammer/btgroup6.JPG The 3rd pic has my original chaplain mod before I decided to hack up grimaldus for a more imposing figure. The 5th pic has a pretty cool sergeant using a pointy hand bit from the command sprue and I'd chopped a bolt pistol down to give him his left handed bolter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Also when flipping through the codex last night I noticed I had made an error with the sholder pads, technically the red outlining is for assault marines/fast attack, while these are close combat squads they technically aren't assault marines. It's a very minor thing and I like the red trim for the appearance, not sure if I'll change them to black or leave them as is. When I get around to the bolter squads those will have the standard black trim for sure. The Black Templars, being a very non-codex kind of chapter, can allow themselves to bend the various rules some. A simple "fluff explanation" for it could be that the above mentioned marines are indeed assault marines, but have to stick to footslogging "for today" for any odd reason. Anything from being out of Jump Pack fuel/having to conserve it, to Violent low altitude winds making normal use of jump packs way to risky so the marshal decided that they'd have to make do without for now. .. and is it just me .. or do you have lots and lots of tabard chest plates. (Read: Tons of BT upgrade boxes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 Yeah I defiantely have a lot of tabards, I wanted ot make my army stand out a bit so all of my marines are sporting tabards. So far about 70 marines and 40 terminators are all built with tabards. At the time I started my army my brother worked for GW so he got stuff at fairly a steep discount if it was bits ordered, he thought I was insane that I wanted enough to field about 150 tabard bodies. Now I'm sure he thinks I'm still insane but he apreciates the look of the army. At 3 tabards per sprue it's a lot of sprues, and I have a small mountain of extra templars bits because of it. Originally my initiates were all going to be in tabards and the neophytes were going to have the non tabard chest pieces, but after many long discussions/arguements with my brother (who's a fluff-nazi) he convinced me to use the regular scouts as they didn't have power armor and that people would be misled if I used marine bodies for scouts. So I'm sticking to the normal scouts but I'm planning on converting them to be using the templar close combat weapons with the chains on them to help tie them into the chapter theme a bit more. I think at the time I picked up the equivilant of 30 templar conversion boxes (60 sprues), but I only bought a few of the vehicle sprues so my tanks aren't bitzed out like they could be. At the time I didn't have enough marine bodies to covert, but I knew the eventual size of the army I wanted to grow it to and pre-bought accordingly, I also bought a ton of terminator sprues at the time. My brother quit GW about a month later so the timing was good otherwise I doubt I would have dropped the cash to convert that many guys. About teh same time that he quit they re-adjusted the employee discount, so it's not quite the steal it used to be. It's also why I focus on a single army, I could never afford to be crazy intense on building more than a single army, what I've built up to with my templars has already taken me almost two years of purchasing to build up to. I think the fluff explantion for the assault stripe is a good idea, I'll probably use something along those ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amit Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Awesome army there mate. Just a quick question, when you paint your marines, do you leave the bolter arms on or off. That is to say do you paint the the marine legs/torso/backpack and the bolter arms separately and then assemble afterwords? Cheers in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulson games Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 So far I've been painting everything assembled except the back pack. The reason a few of them have bare arms is I decided I needed more bolter squads and had already assembled primed them with combat weapons, I popped the arms off and replaced them with the bolter arms which is why the ones pictured are bare. What I'd suggest is hitting the back side of the tabards before gluing the chest to the legs, as it a pain to paint the rear of the tabard once the legs are on. Most of my stuff is already assembled and I didn't think of it at the time, but it's something I'd do in the future. It'd probably be a good idea to paint the torso before adding the arms on the bolter squads, as they cross over the chest and it'd be much easier than trying to work around the bolter. Hindsight is 20/20, since my stuff it pretty much all assembled I'm stuck doing everything the more difficult way. The close combat arms don't get in the way, so it shouldn't be a problem if you glue those on before painting, but for the bolter arms I'd suggest leaving those off and painting them seperate. Also make sure to leave the plastic bare where it gets glued, if you paint on it and then try to glue it you'll have a heck of a time as the paint will just pull away and make a mess of glue and paint. Leave a small spot bare on the sholder connection or the glue won't bond correctly to the plastic, same with the backpacks, and the sholder pad. For the HQ guys I put up I took the backpacks and standards off after taking pics so they don't get in the way while I paint. Anyways that'd be my advice if you're starting out fresh, I'll make some changes for the next time around but in the mean time I'm stuuck with extra work as I didn't think it through as thuroughly as I could have. My impatience often gets the better of me and I end up wasting time going back and fixing issues I could have avoided by spending the couple extra minutes planning before building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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