Korhal Ragingspirit Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I had a debate during a game this weekend with one of our groups veteran players about our Dreadnoughts getting counter-attack. I told him that since our codex does not say that our Dreads do not get C-A so they can. The only problem that came up was that Dreads do not have a leadership value. So do they auto-pass the test and get the +1 attack? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother SRM Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Vehicles are assumed to have passed all leadership tests. The rule for counter-attack also states that "all models" have it. Slightly wonky, but no more so than many of our other rules. If anyone gives you trouble, blame it on our wonderful, old codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1848937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Vehicles are assumed to have passed all leadership tests. The rule for counter-attack also states that "all models" have it. Slightly wonky, but no more so than many of our other rules. If anyone gives you trouble, blame it on our wonderful, old codex. Where do you find ALL models? I found only space wolves and fenrisian wolves may counter charge...and only squad that cant are the long fangs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1848962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well, the all models bit is taken from a slightly abstract reading of the dex, but it basically says "your army" which by my logic means vehicles gain acute senses. Dreads counter attacking is more difficult however, as the rules for counter attack state a Ld check must be passed, and the BBB says something to the effect of vehicles ignore Ld check. At the last Tourney I was at, it was ruled they didn't get it, and that was by me and another SW player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 And in the end that is the only way we can use the some rules in out dex. Talk to opponents or staff and just make your point clear but except when they feel its over powered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Is a dreadnought not a 'space wolf model'? and at the top of pg 4 of our dex it says that "The following rules apply to a Space Wolves army." The dread is part of the is he not? However in all fairness, the rule was never meant to apply to a dread as if charged he will be in base with the enemy and he already has 3 base attacks which is one more than most dreads with similar equipment. I thinks the two attcks each for bloodclaws more than make up for letting this one go. We don't want to be too literal with a decade only dex. We are tough enough as it is, and I for one think this particular reading on the RAW goes a bit too far. Especially since the dread can't even fail the check on his worst day with box-cars :P . G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I gotta admit that it didn't even occur to me that a dread might not get it... But putting it like this, I guess I could live with it if an opponent disputed it. Of course, if it's someone else with an old codex, then they could look forwards to similar treatment... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The English version of the codex clearly says "unengaged Space Wolf and Fenrisian Wolf models" the German version states (rough translation) "infantry models". -edit- I mean common sense would say no, especially when long fangs can no longer get it... what makes you think even older pups would. :P I've tried it out and some bite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Jukes Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Having failed 3 out of 5 counter-charge leadership checks in a game yesterday (gotta love 5 and 6) it would definitely be nice to have an auto-pass counter-charge... but I'm pretty sure the language on Space Wolf models applies only to the footsloggers and not any vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
obs0l3te Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 "but I'm pretty sure the language on Space Wolf models applies only to the footsloggers and not any vehicles. " My only argument against this is.. the FAQ says NOT to use the language in C:SW and use the language in the main book. Id simply say no to the countercharge thing on dreads.... for fairness factor.... it didn't apply to them before... its kinda getting a lil... beardy? with that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Having failed 3 out of 5 counter-charge leadership checks in a game yesterday (gotta love 5 and 6) it would definitely be nice to have an auto-pass counter-charge... but I'm pretty sure the language on Space Wolf models applies only to the footsloggers and not any vehicles. Vehicles always rolled for acute senses and such and those too say Space Wolf models... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 See, and I disagree with the lot of you. ^_^ Dreads, while technically older than long fangs, would also be much more aggressive with bodies that are able to keep up. Since it was pointed out to me (I didnt think so at first) its pretty standard at my LGS that SW Dreads get it. It also has encouraged folks to stay away from them (+1 on the charge, +1 if they are charged...). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well this is the way I thought Dreads were handled in the assault.....they fought like infantry in an assault except for how it is damaged, i.e. the enemy hits the armor instead of regular "infantry-type" wounds. So if a Dread handles assaults like an infantry unit, he therefore would get it, the wrinkle is the no Leadership value which is essential because to get the counter-attack a unit needs to pass a Leadership test....so therefore, SW Dreads no NOT get it unless someone can find in the rulebook where it states vehicles pass Leadership tests..... Take it or leave it, it is only my opinion...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1849965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnarchX Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Most vehicles use a leadership value of 10 when taking a Leadership test against things like psychic powers, so I would assume that it would be 10 for a CA, if you were going to use it. To me, the +1 attack isn't worth the 15 minutes of arguing that would probably ensue if I tried to use it. ;) Thanks, AnarchX Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1850077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 However in the BRB vehicles are assumed to pass all leadership checks. They use a value of 10 to test against powers.... when a number is needed. Dreads get it, just like they get keen senses. They autopass.... they get one extra attack on the first round of combat, big deal. Its nice, but if they dont have it in the next dex I can deal with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1850311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 ...so therefore, SW Dreads no NOT get it unless someone can find in the rulebook where it states vehicles pass Leadership tests..... Take it or leave it, it is only my opinion...... Check the vehicle section, vehicles are assumed to auto-pass any leadership test. The crews faith in their vehicle is so strong to make it redundant. I do agree though, while its nice now, if it was gone from our codex, it wouldnt bother me too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1851004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Works for me thanks =D Yeah, lets enjoy it while it lasts.....Ven Dread knocking everyone flat waaaoooooooo! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1851311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coverfire Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Sorry to resurrect this thread but I understood that only "unengaged" models received the counter-charge bonus... How can a dread be unengaged, since he is the only one in his unit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Sorry to resurrect this thread but I understood that only "unengaged" models received the counter-charge bonus... How can a dread be unengaged, since he is the only one in his unit? Because, the FAQ from GW replaces the wording in the codex with us getting countercharge from the main rulebook... which says nothing about unegaged or not, just specifies the first round of an assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 it's all right to necro this to ask a Q. Answer is, he can't ever be unengaged, but Counter Attack doesn't care if you're unengaged. Course, everything else already said is wrong, but I've already explained it once before in another thread. If the argument from the other thread wants to spread over here, I'll oblige though (since this thread was made with the topic in mind. The other wasn't, I think). The important part is: Dreadnoughts do not get CA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Whats your argument that dreads dont get counter attack again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Because Dreads do not have a leadership stat, they cannot take leadership tests. This is implied in the BRB by the statement regarding morale: (paraphrased) "Vehicles do not take morale tests" While it is true that morale does not necessarily equal leadership, I can see a very real train of thought on behalf of the original writers. Also, it is important to note that "does not take" does not equal "always passes." This normally is indistinguishable, as it usually refers to morale tests which often have no stigma for passing a test, but when looking at "do I get this benefit for passing a test" I have to say "No, you did not take the test, thus could not have passed or failed." Evidently, this argument is moot as the BRB may or may not explicitly spell out that vehicles do not get benefit of Counterattack, but I cannot verify that at this time as I am away from book. There is also reference to Acute Senses, however, this is immaterial to the discussion at hand as Dreadnoughts possess both an initiative characteristic and are called upon to take spotting tests in nightfight scenarios. My contention here would be, yes, Dreadnoughts get Acute Senses. My argument is: If a model does not have a characteristic, it cannot test on that characteristic (not really an "out there" point of view, or so I was led to believe) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I get what your saying, I disagree, but I see what your saying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 You're entitled to feel that way, as long as when new users ask the inevitable question "Do dreadnoughts get Counter Attack?" you identify that the issue is under contention, and that both camps have arguments for their position. I'll do the same. Beyond that, if you want to repeat my argument alongside your own, feel free, but I won't hold you to that. Just not clear cut enough for a definitive statement, I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1992641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 To everyone pointing out that vehicles automatically pass leadership tests, you are wrong. Vehicles automatically pass morale checks. GW specifically points out that Morale checks are a specific type of leadership test, but NOT a leadership test. Pg 43 of the BRB specifically points out: "Some units always pass Morale checks, while a few others always pass all Leadership tests. This is a subtle but important difference. For example, units that always pass Morale checks will still have to test for pinning." Counterattack specifically calls for a Leadership test, NOT a Morale check. So while a dreadnought automatically passes morale checks, it has no leadership value to take a leadership test therefore it cannot test to see if it can counterattack. In addition if you check pg 8 of the BRB under Characteristic Tests: "Of course, if a model has to take a test for one of its characteristics with a value of 0, it automatically fails." Last time I checked, there is no leadership value listed on the profile for dreadnoughts. They are given a leadership 10 for a specific circumstance (psyhic powers), however that is for only that circumstance. If leadership 10 was to be used for counterattack or for leadership tests in general it would specifically be written into the rules. As it is written now, it isn't in the rules. RAW: Space Wolf dreadnoughts do not get counterattack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157992-counter-attack-and-dreads/#findComment-1993013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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