Counter-Attack and Dreads.

[Grey Mage]

Actually having a 0 in a characteristic is not quite the same as not having said characteristic. But its something to look into...

[Grimtooth]

Actually having a 0 in a characteristic is not quite the same as not having said characteristic. But its something to look into...

 

True, however not even having that characteristic even listed on the profile could then be interpreted as being even less then 0. It doesn't even rate the value of 0, it is non-existent.

[WG Vrox]

This normally is indistinguishable, as it usually refers to morale tests which often have no stigma for passing a test, but when looking at "do I get this benefit for passing a test" I have to say "No, you did not take the test, thus could not have passed or failed."

 

Last time I checked, there is no leadership value listed on the profile for dreadnoughts. They are given a leadership 10 for a specific circumstance (psyhic powers), however that is for only that circumstance. If leadership 10 was to be used for counterattack or for leadership tests in general it would specifically be written into the rules. As it is written now, it isn't in the rules.

 

I have rarely ran a Dread in my lists and have never encoutered the need to decide. However if having to make a call on the battlefield, from your two posts, I would rule this correct and not ask for a counter charge.

 

Now when Bjorn comes out, I wonder if they will give him a leadership value?

 

WG Vrox

[Grimtooth]

This normally is indistinguishable, as it usually refers to morale tests which often have no stigma for passing a test, but when looking at "do I get this benefit for passing a test" I have to say "No, you did not take the test, thus could not have passed or failed."

 

Last time I checked, there is no leadership value listed on the profile for dreadnoughts. They are given a leadership 10 for a specific circumstance (psyhic powers), however that is for only that circumstance. If leadership 10 was to be used for counterattack or for leadership tests in general it would specifically be written into the rules. As it is written now, it isn't in the rules.

 

I have rarely ran a Dread in my lists and have never encoutered the need to decide. However if having to make a call on the battlefield, from your two posts, I would rule this correct and not ask for a counter charge.

 

Now when Bjorn comes out, I wonder if they will give him a leadership value?

 

WG Vrox

 

That is something to ponder. We are not just talking about an ancient battle brother with Bjorn, we are talking the ancient battle brother. One who is only brought out to LEAD the Space Wolves in battle when dire circumstances present themselves. He should definitely have a set leadership value because he is Bjorn alone.

[Ryzouken]

I disagree regarding Bjorn.

 

Consider the implications of giving Bjorn an Ld value. It adds absolutely nothing (except, maybe, for some special rule he'd have that could just as easily be represented as "roll a d6, on a 1 this ability fails) and then opens a whole new can of RAW argument worms as we now have a walker that may or may not be susceptible to pinning, mindwar, and a whole host of other things. If 40k were like Warmachine, and LD (Command in WM) dictated the ranges orders are given and the like, then it would matter. Bjorn's age is better represented by a special rule and some other benefit.

 

Also, since I DO have the rulebook in front of me, I'll quote the relevant passage I alluded to earlier, word for word (as regards vehicles and morale checks. Bottom of pg 63 under the Vehicles and Morale heading)

 

"Vehicles never take Morale checks for any reason. It is assumed that in all cases the vehicle's crew has unshakeable faith in their vehicle and their orders."

 

Again, while it doesn't spell out "Leadership tests" one can make the small hop to it by the inference and by the lack of followable mechanics presented in the rules.

 

Dead horse, well beaten.

[Grimtooth]

Also, since I DO have the rulebook in front of me, I'll quote the relevant passage I alluded to earlier, word for word (as regards vehicles and morale checks. Bottom of pg 63 under the Vehicles and Morale heading)

 

"Vehicles never take Morale checks for any reason. It is assumed that in all cases the vehicle's crew has unshakeable faith in their vehicle and their orders."

 

Again, while it doesn't spell out "Leadership tests" one can make the small hop to it by the inference and by the lack of followable mechanics presented in the rules.

 

Dead horse, well beaten.

 

While we are agreeing that dreads do not get counterattack, you are going by "RAI by Ryz". As it is written in the BRB, Morale checks =/= Leadership tests. This is supported by RAW. Making the "small hop" is not supported by RAW and in fact is leading to people thinking that dreads get counterattack.

[Ryzouken]

you are going by "RAI by Ryz".

 

I am the law!

/dredd

 

It seems you and I are arguing the same point, otherwise, I think.

Or you're arguing that my making a small logical hop isn't supported by RAW while your small hop is perfectly okay. Not entirely sure.

 

I think I'll just boil down my whole argument to:

 

Take a leadership test on that dreadnought. If you can prove to me you have succeeded in rolling a result which is less than the leadership value your dreadnought does not possess, you can claim counter attack. (Good Luck.)

[Grimtooth]

Like I said we agree that dreads do not get counterattack.

 

I am not making any small hop at all. My point is supported by the rules as written and as I quoted earlier.

 

Morale checks =/= Leadership checks

 

Just because a dread automatically passes Morale checks does not in anyway mean that they automatically pass Leadership tests because they are not the same thing. GW clearly points out that they are not the same thing and even puts an example in the BRB. To infer that Morale = Leadership in anyway in regard to dreadnoughts is not RAW by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ryzouken]

Like I said we agree that dreads do not get counterattack.

 

I am not making any small hop at all. My point is supported by the rules as written and as I quoted earlier.

 

Morale checks =/= Leadership checks

 

Just because a dread automatically passes Morale checks does not in anyway mean that they automatically pass Leadership tests because they are not the same thing. GW clearly points out that they are not the same thing and even puts an example in the BRB. To infer that Morale = Leadership in anyway in regard to dreadnoughts is not RAW by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Okay, so we agree, entirely, absolutely, 100%

 

Why are we arguing?

 

And dreads don't auto pass morale checks, they don't take them. Neither here nor there, but a point that keeps getting incorrectly brought up.

[Coverfire]

Off the Topic of Dreads but still with Counter Attacking... I had a terrible scenario the other night.

 

I had my 13th Co. Grey Slayers in combat with Grey Knights and the GK Land Raider rolls up and drops another unit and charges.

If all my guys had been locked in combat (base-to-base) I would have not received the headache that I did wondering if in fact the

several models not in base to base contact could counter-attack. Since members of the unit were locked in base contact I assumed

that all were considered 'locked in' combat, but the question has been niggling at me since the match.

 

So I guess my question is... Even if some of the squad is locked in combat, can other models not in Base to base counter attack?

 

None of it mattered as my Wolf Guard Pack Leader and the Wulfen Lord that had joined the pack both had Lightning Claws and

the Mark of the Wulfen and obliterated them all in three rounds of combat. Unfortunately, the Land Raider drove over the objective

I was holding and a shooting round of four meltaguns did nothing except singe it losing me the match 1 objective to 1 contested.

[Grey Mage]

Well I dont suppose it matters much, as counter-attack is worthless to Grey Slayers.

 

Edit: Your characters probly couldnt, as theyre considered part of the unit, and with counter-attack its a unit thats locked in combat, not a model. You might consider taking that idea to the Official Rules forum though.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

It never even occurred to me that they could and it seems a little too much to allow dreads to counter attack.

[Ryzouken]

Grey Mage touched on it, but it deserves to be spelled out:

 

A unit locked in CC that is subsequently assaulted by another unit in a later assault phase may not claim the benefit of Counter Attack. This is in the BRB.

 

Additionally:

It does not matter if the enemy manages to base each and every one of your models in the initial assault, you still are able to claim Counter Attack provided you succeed on your Ld test.

[Korhal Ragingspirit]

I had forgotten about this post but after thinking about it I decided that our Dreads do not in fact get Counter-Attack. I see the reasons being have already been stated in the post. I am hoping with the new Codex around the corner and with the rumors of Bjorn, that he at least gets it.

[Grey Mage]

Grey Mage touched on it, but it deserves to be spelled out:

 

A unit locked in CC that is subsequently assaulted by another unit in a later assault phase may not claim the benefit of Counter Attack. This is in the BRB.

 

Additionally:

It does not matter if the enemy manages to base each and every one of your models in the initial assault, you still are able to claim Counter Attack provided you succeed on your Ld test.

Well the other bit is that since Grey Slayers are true gritting a bolter with their CCW, and cant get lightning claws, powerfists or other such they simply wont get an extra attack... or if they do *true grit being optional* it still wont change the total.

[Coverfire]

Grey Mage touched on it, but it deserves to be spelled out:

 

A unit locked in CC that is subsequently assaulted by another unit in a later assault phase may not claim the benefit of Counter Attack. This is in the BRB.

 

Additionally:

It does not matter if the enemy manages to base each and every one of your models in the initial assault, you still are able to claim Counter Attack provided you succeed on your Ld test.

Well the other bit is that since Grey Slayers are true gritting a bolter with their CCW, and cant get lightning claws, powerfists or other such they simply wont get an extra attack... or if they do *true grit being optional* it still wont change the total.

 

Well it was more for the Wolf Guard Sgt that I really had in mind when I asked the question. But I am certain that your opinions are the correct ones as I was more or less leading toward that anyway. It was when Grey Mage replied to an earlier post (see entry below) that I got confused.

 

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I understood that only "unengaged" models received the counter-charge bonus...

 

How can a dread be unengaged, since he is the only one in his unit?

Because, the FAQ from GW replaces the wording in the codex with us getting countercharge from the main rulebook... which says nothing about unegaged or not, just specifies the first round of an assault.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry about the confusion. Remember, if your already locked into assault it matters not if you are assaulted by another unit, its still not the first round of your assault.