Corrupted Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I really want to do a Slannesh Daemon army, and I was willing to sacrifice a good deal of effectiveness for full, but dear god. They should be ten points max. To pay that much for a squad that's going to get wiped by small arms fire, really? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dourine Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 That's the problem with mono-god armies. Glaring, obvious weaknesses Slaanesh-get shot up without any return fire Khorne- hard time keeping up with the enemy...without return fire Nurgle- Can't catch the enemy, can't cause wounds in close combat, but you can take pretty much anything thrown at you....without return fire Tzeentch-We get return fire! We get return fire! We get...18"charge assault marines? But, u don't have to go single god, it's pretty encouraged to use multiple gods. Throw in a a few nurgle units and you've got something to keep the enemy busy while you rush in. Or, throw in some khorne stuff and you've got stuff the enemy knows is more dangerous. Of course khorne and slaanesh don't complement each other very well, but whatever. Keepers are greater daemons, therefore more durable, and then you've got the soul grinders. You could make pure slaanesh work, but i'd suggest at least 4 squads of 20 daemonettes all coming down on 1 turn to overload your enemy. KoS, Trans.gaze Kos, Trans.gaze 5 Fiends 6 Fiends 20 nettes, icon 20 nettes, icon 20 nettes, icon 20 nettes 1st turn maybe do two of the daemonettes with icons, daemonettes without icon, and the 6 fiend squad. Make sure to screen as much as you can, using your own troops as cover if need be. 2000 points right there. Off the top of my head, with some other ideas i've been fiddlin' with. And if you're really worried about the small arms fire, it'd take at least 3 squads of tac. marines rapid firing at you to kill one squad of 'nettes, or 18 heavy bolters focused at you, and that's not considering if you're taking advantage of cover or not....do be wary of template wepons however. But if you get a good run roll after your DS, and whore out the 2" rule, you'll minimize losses. With slaanesh though, your really can't disperse your army like other armies can. Slaanesh units are all supporters, that's why they're so fast. The points cost for them isn't considering what the can do, it's what the can help do. "My unit of horrors are about to get assaulted over there! What can i do?!?!?....oh, these daemonettes can get over there in a couple turns." Even a KoS can't handle a full ork squad by itself, nor can a full unit of daemonettes, or a full unit of fiends, that's why you'd have the kos, a squad of daemonettes, and fiends all there to out init, out attack, and possibly outnumber the orks on the charge. Funny story. Today my Herald of Tzeentch caused 3 wounds on a Chaos space marine Daemon Prince with wings and warptime without getting any wounds back....but the subsequently did nothing to him for 3 turns, and 6 charging bloodletters failed to wound him also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Eltor Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hi, did you already tried it with proxies? Maybe they are worse than Bloodletters but 10 points wouldn't be enough! Furthermore: it might be difficult to win with this army. But it is extremely boring to win nearly always and far more interesting to have a challenge! Mybe try a 1000 pts list with 6x6 units of daemonettes an deepstrike them into cover. Then see what will happen! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Am I the only one who actually likes daemonettes? Maybe it's because most of us also play a power armoured army and are use to ignoring small arms fire, but daemonettes are not that weak, they still have 3 rending attacks each and a 5+ invulnerable save, as well as WS4. The point is, they don't all need to make it to the enemy to have a huge impact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sceleris Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I'd agree with Malachi - with a inv save they aren't that bad, it just seems that way of you are used to lots of power armoured bodies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Daemonettes are very soft, just take plenty. 3 biggish units should work, so you'll still have plenty of points left for the good stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 I'm going to try some proxy games, I just doesn't seem promising. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewm9 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I'm going to try some proxy games, I just doesn't seem promising. I think the toughness 3 and strength 3 in an assault unit is what puts people off. As a Sisters player thats all there is for me. If I packed it up eveytime I got assualted (which is to say every game) because I am toughness 3, I would just stay home. The same applies for many eldar units, tau (although they suck worse than basic sisters sisters in assault), and imperial guard (at least they can be WS4). You just have to know how to play them I think and its a learning process. Of course all those other armies I have listed have something else going for them that Daemonettes don't and thats shooting. Daemonettes and Seekers are fast though with fleet and high initiative. It helps a big deal. Never love tap with these units though. Tyr the blocks of 20 and you might be surprised. Killing a unit before they go is always good. If you manage to get that block of daemonettes to assault range thats 80 attacks, 40 hits against WS4, 13 wounds against toughness 4, 6 of which will be rending, and if you are facing a MEQ thats another 2 wounds unsaved. So even in a full squad of marines that 8 out of 10 dead before the marines even get to fight back on average. With some cover and intelligent moves, I think daemonettes are fine models. Game play will tell for you whether they work I guess. All that said I think daemons have some things against them, since deployment could go very badly for daemons. One obstacle at a time I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Homer Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Count me as one who like Deamonettes, but always in large blocks. 20 is necessary, especially in larger games. At 1500 points I would still field them as 20's and no less than 15. Some rough mathammer was done in a thread further down about massed demonettes vs. Berzerkers, and the kill numbers are just as applicable to normal marines. 20 Demonettes, assuming average dice, will completely maul a 10 man tactical squad or assault squad. I haven't done the math but I think statistically they may nail a storm hammer terminator squad too. They go simul with harlies (always a good thing) and that's probablly a mutual annhilation fest. I think they will do a number on an orc mob too. I don't play orcs so am unclear on some of the stats but assuming WS4 and T4. Warning: Rough Mathammer ahead. Feel free to correct. 20 Demonettes vs. 30 orcs w/ power claw Demonettes get the charge 80 attacks, 40 hits, 20 wounds 18ish dead orcs 33 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 6 dead demonettes w/ 2 more dead from the power claw orcs lose by 12 and take 6-8 more casualities due to CR. They will not be fearless the next round assuming they survive the 12 demonettes swinging at them first. It gets worse when you combine squads on the attack. EH Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Few things for you all to bear in mind. 1) Not all your army is going to be amazing, you need something not so amazing to clean up (though this isn't what daemonettes are I'm just making a point). 2) If your daemonettes are getting shot at, your tougher units like your fiends or bloodcrushers are moving up relatively unmolested. 3) If your daemonettes aren't getting shot up then all the better for you. 4) Eldar have T3 and do plenty well enough. 5) They are still our cheapest troops choice, even if they are 14 points. 6) They outclass any other T3 unit out there hands down, and beat most T4 units to. 7) The models are ace. 8) Rending, need I say more? 9) 20 per unit makes them pretty survivable, and with deep strike and fleet they won't see more than one, maybe two turns of fire before they get stuck in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Warning: Rough Mathammer ahead. Feel free to correct. 20 Demonettes vs. 30 orcs w/ power claw Demonettes get the charge 80 attacks, 40 hits, 20 wounds 18ish dead orcs 33 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 6 dead demonettes w/ 2 more dead from the power claw orcs lose by 12 and take 6-8 more casualities due to CR. They will not be fearless the next round assuming they survive the 12 demonettes swinging at them first. It gets worse when you combine squads on the attack. EH Corrections away. 20 Daemonettes charging = 80 attacks 4+ to hit, so 40 hits 5+ to wound, so 40/3 (13.33) Half of those rend, so 20/3 (6.67) kills off the bat 6+ armor, so 5.56 more kills. Total dead = 12 Orks 18 Orks swinging back (17+PK), 51 normal attacks 4+ to hit, so 51/2 (25.5) hits 4+ to wound, so 51/4 (12.75) wounds 5+ invulnerable, so 8.5 dead PK, 3 attacks 4+ to hit, 1.5 hits 2+ to wound, 1.25 wounds 5+ invulnerable, .83 dead Total dead = 9 Daemonettes Considering that 20 Daemonettes costs 280 while 30 Orks and their PK costs 220 and the Daemonettes even have the advantage of charging, things don't look good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dourine Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Wait, wait, wait......WS4?!?!? Really?..........cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1849954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 The thing that I've thought about is that both Bloodletters and Daemonettes compete for the same slot in an army, that of assault infantry. The numbers have already been ran and we've seen that Bloodletters are more killy against pretty much anything than a equal point amount of Daemonettes. S3 Rending is weaker than S5 Power Weapons as far as tank busting, however S3 Rending does have a chance of hurting AV12 (though you can take Fury of Khorne to help that). Daemonettes have the advantage in high terrain boards, due to their grenade equivalents. And they have the Fleet. I6 always is better than I5 on the charge, but frankly I5 is normally enough. So the question remains, what is special really about the Daemonettes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1850119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 So the question remains, what is special really about the Daemonettes. Not thier models thats for sure! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1850138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Being able to maim/kill/otherwise do unspeakable things to infantry is hardly a special thing for a Daemon unit. Let's look at the list of things that can kill infantry en-mass... Bloodthirsters Keepers of Secrets Great Unclean One CC Heralds of Khorne Bloodcrushers Flamers (when close enough) Beasts of Nurgle (when powered up on the Tally) Fiends of Slaanesh Bloodletters (Yay, massed power weapons!) Daemonettes (massed attacks/rending) Most of the Fast attack choices Daemon Princes Soul Grinders (in melee or phlegm) Most of the codex, eh? Murdering infantry isn't really a standout...plus, troops need to be survivable to score. The enemy has scoring troops left, we don't? Game over. Daemonettes may be the swiftest troops choice, but they're also the LEAST survivable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1850236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dourine Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 The special thing about daemonettes, and slaanesh stuff in general, is that you have the speed to easily assault several of your units into one enemy unit by turn 2. I know with my khorne stuff, if i do assault anything, against a good opponent won't be at least until turn 3, then that unit's on it's own for at least 1 or 2 turns. Also, being sad because you're limited to holding objective with daemonettes is just whining, because you're limiting yourself if you choose to go pure 1 god. If you wanna hold objectives, get 2 cheap units of plaguebearers, with 75pts for 5 of 'em, put them in cover and go to ground, it's not too hard to hold the objectives. And if the enemy manages to get a power weapon'd assault squad behind you, your slaanesh stuff can get back there in time to help pretty quick. Don't get me wrong, when i first picked up the codex i thought "daemonettes.....cannon fodder....overpriced cannon fodder". But as i've gained more experience with the daemon codex, and fought a friend who used them, though not very effectively, i began to see their uses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1850388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestroyerHive Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 So the question remains, what is special really about the Daemonettes. They have GRENADES. Think about it - who's gonna end up better? (I can't be bothered math hammering right now) 9 Bloodletters (144 points) charging into 10 Orks in cover or 10 Daemonettes (140 points) charging into 10 Orks in cover...and striking first? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1850566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 So the question remains, what is special really about the Daemonettes. They have GRENADES. Think about it - who's gonna end up better? (I can't be bothered math hammering right now) 9 Bloodletters (144 points) charging into 10 Orks in cover or 10 Daemonettes (140 points) charging into 10 Orks in cover...and striking first? Well lets see... 10 Slugga Boyz in cover (no Nob) vs 9 Bloodletters charging 30 Ork attacks @ WS4 = 15 hits @ S3 = 5 wounds @ 5++ = 3.3 dead BL (round to 3) 18 BL attacks @ WS5 = 12 hits @ S5 = 8 wounds = 8 dead orks Orks test for LD against LD3 and run away, probably getting caught 10 Slugga Boyz in cover (no Nob) vs 10 Daemonettes charging 40 DE attacks @ WS4 = 20 hits @ S3 = 6.6 wounds (3.3 Rends) @ 6+ = 6 dead Orks 12 Ork attacks @ WS4 = 6 hits @ S3 = 3 wounds @ 5++ = 2 dead DE Orks test for LD against LD4 and run away, totally getting caught In the end, the BL only lose 1 more model than the Dameonettes, given the perfect scenario. Kinda sad huh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 But they still come off better :P They also have defensive grenades. Math hammer 10 boys charging into 10 daemonettes and 10 boys charging into 9 bloodletters. The daemonettes will end up attacking first, and the orks lose an attack as well. The bloodletters will strike at the same time. I'd mathhammer it myself but I've gotta go right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Yes, but 10 boyz only costs 60 points. That's hardly a fair comparison. Not to mention, they do have sluggas so will get a few shots off before assault as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 How is it unfair? They cost less and'll probably end off better.. Okay, I can math hammer it now. 10 Boyz charging into 10 'nettes (No nob) - 30 'nette attacks, 15 hit, 2 rend, 3 wound, none save--5 dead Orks 15 attacks back, 7 hit, 4 wound, one saves--3 dead 'nettes. Orks need to take leadership test at Ld5 (base 7 -2) 10 Boyz charge 9 'letters (No nob) - attacking simultaneously, so 18 'letter attacks, 12 hit, 6 wound--6 dead Orks 40 Ork attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound, 3 save--7 dead 'letters. Bloodletters take additional wound for losing by 1. When charged, Daemonettes come off better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Orks don't get +1A from charging thanks to grenades, also Daemonettes are going first in both scenarios due to their crazy high I. 20 Daemonettes can tear up 10 grots real easy, too bad that's a meaningless comparison because of the massive points discrepancy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 How is it unfair? They cost less and'll probably end off better.. Because we're not actually comparing the Orks to the Daemonettes, we're comparing Bloodletters to Daemonettes, and as such the difference is much clearer if the points on each side are equal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarch Naogedd Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hate to break it to ya, but the Bloodletters will strike before the Orks, as Boyz are I2 and furious charge increases that to 3. BL's still strike first. So, with the BL's dealing 6 casualties, only 16 attacks will make it to attacking, making 8 hits, 4 wounds, about 3 dead 'letters. Orks take a LD check at LD4. Bloodletters do better than Daemonettes in that situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Homer Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Demonettes are unlikely to be caught by the charge and are much more likely to get the charge off Demonettes are probably superior at assaulting models in cover. W/ 5th edition and static objective many of which are in cover that is a plus for them. Demonettes are likely to receive less attacks coming back at them then the bloodletters. Demonettes kill marines nearly as well but through different means, mass attacks the rending rather than the power weapon. Demonettes are better off again hive tyrant and other nasty, mobile, natural I5 opponents than the 'letters are. Yes the 'letters will win but the Demonettes are more likely to be functional and have a better chance of catching the mobile nasty than do the 'letters. So let see use demonettes when you need a fast, moderate killy unit that can handle a variety of foes, including MCs, ICs, and up to AV12 walkers (read dreads...) Use 'letters when you have to absolutely kill MEQ opponents and you know there are going to be alot of T4 3+ models around. My personal theory is to use them both so we will see how that works out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/157997-daemonettes-why/#findComment-1854621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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