Daemonettes, why?

[Raptor1313]

Let's look at some other targets.

 

Let's look at more resilient targets, like PLague Marines, monstrous creatures, and the like. Look at them vs. vehicles.

 

On the charge...

A 'nette has 4 attacks. Against a vehicle that isn't moving:

4 hits. 1/6 attacks rend, so 4*(1/6) = .667 rends per daemonette.

After she rends, she gets D3 extra penetration. 1/3 rends glances, 2/3 pen.

So each daemonette is is good for about a 22% chance to glance, and 44% chance to pen AV10.

 

They can glance dreads.

 

Vs. Moving targets they hit on 4+:

2 attacks per 'nette hit.

33% chance to rend per 'nette

11% chance to glance, 22% chance to pen

 

Bloodletters on the charge:

Not-moving targets:

S5 attacks to AV10

One in 3 attacks does something.

1/6 glances, 1/6 pens.

 

 

Vs. Moving Targets

3 attacks each at S5

1.5 hits. Each hit has a 1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen.

Each bloodletter is good for a .25 glacnes and .25 pens.

 

 

Look at some other nasty units, though.

Nobs/Nob Bikers.

They'll either be mechanized (getting the charge off) or on bikes (getting the charge off).

 

Flat-footed:

Bloodletter has 2 attacks @ WS5, S4 with power weapons. goes first or simo.

1.33 hits.

0.66 power weapon wounds vs. Nobs, .44 vs. bikers.

Screw Feel No Pain

 

Against 10 Nobs, 15 bloodletters will kill them outright.

Against 10 bikers, 22 bloodletters will kill them outright

 

Daemonettes:

3 attacks each.

1.5 hits.

VS Nobs on foot:

wound on 5+, rend on 6+

.25 wounds, .25 rends.

Figure in the 4+ armor save and 4+ FNP, and you're at:

0.06 wounds, .25 rends.

.25 rends vs. bikers.

 

Vs Nobs, 40 daemonettes kill them outright*. (Not dealing with the 0.06 wounds that get through the armor and FNP)

Vs Bikers, 40 'nettes to kill outright.

 

Bloodletter power weapons are the win, here.

 

Vs. Thunder Hammer Terminators

T4, 2+/3+, always have init.

 

Assume they come out of a Raider, which you already have problems with.

 

Bloodletters:

WS5

1.33 hits, 0.66 wounds, and after saves, .22 wounds.

 

Daemonettes:

2 hits.

Wound on 5, rend on 6

.33 regular wounds, .33 rends.

AFter saves:

0.05 wounds + .11 rends.

0.16 wounds total per 'nette

 

Vs the average 5 hammer-nators:

22 bloodletters recieving the charge

31-32 'nettes recieving the charge.

 

On the charge, it takes abou 10 bloodletters to do it. (30 attacks, 20 hits, 6.67 wounds). The daemonettes can't match that.

 

The Bloodletters just stack up better against the nastier melee opponents.

[eyescrossed]

Okay, I'm just not going to bother any more in the "Which unit is better than what, and how can we win at all costs?" argument.

[minigun762]

Okay, I'm just not going to bother any more in the "Which unit is better than what, and how can we win at all costs?" argument.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to be defeatist or powergamey.

The issue we're running into is to try and find out where Daemonettes are more useful than Bloodletters because I believe we all want all units to be of use somewhere.

 

Daemonettes do have some good things going for them.

1) As was mentioned, they can glance AV12 Walkers or Penetrate AV11 ones, Bloodletters can only glance AV11 on the charge, so if you're going to get stuck in with a Dreadnought, Daemonettes are better.

2) Against T8 models (Wraithlords) the Bloodletters are only wounding on the charge, after that they're simply incapable of hurting it. Daemonettes will be able to drag it down with enough numbers.

3) Daemonettes are faster to get into combat than Bloodletters, this is a hard thing to math-hammer but sometimes its far safer (for the unit or the whole army) to assault someone so they can't shoot. If Daemonettes can charge that squad of Lootas on turn 1 and the Bloodletters have to wait until turn 2, thats a whole extra turn of shooting those Lootas will get in.

 

There are some times that they're better than other Daemons, but in straight up killing power, they are weaker than Bloodletters but so is everyone else.

Khorne is made for killing so it seems appropriate.

[Captain Malachi]

While not a huge advantage, and not always an advantage at all, one thing daemonettes can do is try not to kill to many of the enemy, and act almost like a tarpit unit, capable of tying up the enemy for awhile. Note however that this is not a recommended use for them, I'm simply pointing out other things they can do if the situation is desperate.

[eyescrossed]

I am a bit hypocritical, though, as I don't use 'em.

 

EDIT: Wait - no I'm not - I only don't use them because of fluff reasons.

[DevianID]

I gotta add that daemonettes are cheaper, you get 8 daemonettes for 7 bloodletters all at 112 points. So, 18 orks are pretty close.

 

Versus 18 orks

 

Daemonettes charge, 32 attacks, 16 hits, roughly 5 dead orks, in terain or out of terrain.

 

Bloodletters charge, 21 attacks, 14 hits, roughly 5 dead orks out of terrain

 

13 orks swing, 39 attacks versus both, 19.5 hits, ~4 dead bloodletters and 6.5 dead daemonettes, 1 more from combat res so 7.5 dead daemonettes, roughly the whole squad. However, in the next turn the 3 blood letters kill 2 orks, and with 10 orks left they deal 5 wounds and the bloodletters die.

 

In terrain, the blood letters strike last, so 18 orks swing and kill 6 blood letters. 1 blood letter left, who dies in combat res.

 

So as we see, both the bloodletters and the daemonettes die to orks in equal numbers, so neither is the 'better' straight mathhammer option. However, daemonettes, being faster than bloodletters and equipped with grenades, are therefore better, as they can apply local superiority with their speed while bloodletters can simply do nothing if the ork entrenches in cover.

 

Thunderhammer assault termies, 6 are 240 points, 16 daemonettes/14 bloodletters are 224 points.

 

Daemonettes charge, 32 hits, 5 rends and 5 wounds, 2.5 die. 3.5 swing back, 3.5 hits, 2 die. Next round 1.75 termies die, and ~2 swing back, 2 hits, 1 dies. Daemonettes, as you can see, will win this, but after 3-4 rounds.

 

Bloodletters charge, 6 wounds, termies all die, blood letters win in 1 round.

Bloodletters charge in cover, 6 termies swing, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3.33 bloodletters die, termies still die in 1 round.

 

Termie charge, Daemonettes kill 2, 4 termies swing, 4 hits, ~2 die. Next round 1.75 termies die, 2 more daemonettes die. Next round 1.5 termies die, 1 daemonette dies. Final round, termies die.

 

Termies charge bloodletters, bloodletters kill 3. 9 termie swings, 2.5 bloodletters die. Next round, bloodletters probably kill termies.

 

So, termies lose to both bloodletters and daemonettes, but daemonettes are tied up for roughly 4 turns of combat while bloodletters finish in 1-2. Final results point to point goes to daemonettes when charging in cover, equal when the daemonettes speed allows the daemonettes to charge while the 'letters get charged, and to bloodletters when in the open, so overall bletters fare better in mathhammer but again daemonettes are faster.

 

Finally, versus nids, a dakka fex is killed by both when initiating the charge (daemonettes do 3.55 while bletters do 4.6, it is more likely that daemonettes will take 2 rounds) but when getting charged daemonettes do 2.66 while bletters do 1.55. The fex does .55 wounds to daemonettes and .833 wounds to bloodletters. Also, the dakka fex kills more points of blood letters than daemonettes (read: daemonettes point for point are more survivable than bloodletters in the nid shooting phase cause they cost less) Thus, daemonettes are better versus the MCs

 

Versus stealers, the daemonettes are just as fast, both with fleet and init 6. 6 Genestealers (with feeder tendrils) to 7 bletters to 8 daemonettes. On the bloodletter charge 6 stealers do 3.5 wounds to bletters, and the bletters deal 3.5 back. Next turn, 2.5 stealers kill 1.5 bletters, 2 bletters kill 1 stealer. Its a bloodbath. Daemonettes take 4.7 wounds but kill 4.44 back. Next turn the 3 daemonettes kill 1.25 and take .6. Daemonettes win with 1-2 models, so a better margin than bletters.

 

When stealers charge, the bletters are cut down to a man by combat res, killing only 1 stealer in return. Daemonettes take 4.7 and deal 3.33. They pretty much trade the rest of the way down with combat res giving the edge to stealers. So daemonettes are better versus stealers.

 

So in conclusion when daemonettes lose, bletters also lose. When bletters win, daemonettes win but it takes longer. However daemonettes win versus nids with fewer losses and also beat/tie stealers, AND daemonettes are faster and have grenades, so have more tactical options, plus can do something to AV 12, and transfixing gaze routinely AWESOME (though I didnt take gaze into effect in the math hammer), much better than paying to have 1 model get rending in the bletters. My 2 cents.

[Raptor1313]

As a note on Math-hammering...

 

I'd suggest that you also run numbers based on what you might actually encounter in the field.

 

With Orks, I think it breaks up like this:

 

11 Slugga Boyz + PK Nob in Trukk

19 Boyz + Character in Battlewagon

9-10 Nobs and/or character in Battlewagon/trukk

25-30 Orkz in a footsloggin' mob

 

Anyone in the vehicle gets the charge on you, since it's open-topped.

 

With Termies, they get the assault on you if it's a Land Raider. 5-6 of them. Same goes for most any marine assault troop, though Assault Marines get jump packs and therefore, likely the charge on us (...probably with flamers, too.)

 

Genestealers...toss-up on who gets to do the charging. This scenario's more mutable, given the deep strike, fleet, and whether the 'stealer player is bringing Flesh hooks (offensive grenades) or Feeder Tendrils (preferred enemy).

 

All things considered, though, I'd rather look to Fiends or Bloodcrushers for my killing power. More durability (in the crushers) and more speed (12" charge).

[eyescrossed]

More durability (in the crushers) and more speed (12" charge).

Bloodcrushers only have a 6" charge.

[eyescrossed]

More durability (in the crushers) and more speed (12" charge).

Bloodcrushers only have a 6" charge.

[Captain Malachi]

I think he meant durability on the crushers and speed on the fiends.

[eyescrossed]

Ah.

[Raptor1313]

Yeah, that's what I meant though apparently the late night stole my coherency...

 

Ah well.

 

But it seems to me that in this discussion of 'killy troops', we're kind of forgetting that one way or another, in melee (and getting there) we're taking some serious losses to gunfire and often the enemy swinging back. T3 and T4 aren't much when protected by a 5+ save, or a 4+ cover save. (I don't know about you guys, but I pack plenty of flamers in my marine armies...)

 

So, we're either taking a lot of troops, or we're taking durable troops and bringing killy elites. Bloodcrushers are terribly slow, but there's very little they don't maim in melee. (T7+, and AV12+ are about it.) Fiends can catch pretty much anything in melee (6" move + d6 run + 12" charge = 17-24 inch charge range) and have a high volume of attacks and S4 and rending.

 

And while the enemy will undoubtedly pay lots of loving attention to our killy elites, it means he's not killing scoring troops.

 

Bloodletters and daemonettes are nasty, but we need them to be alive at the end of the day unless we utterly table our opponent. We just plain NEED scoring troops. Worst comes to worst, if we plunk objectives into cover we can go to ground with a 3+ save with anything of ours, but...that leads us back to the fact that Plaguebearers are ridiculously hard to shift, and anyone else is wasting some killy potential.

[eyescrossed]

Fiends are strength 5.

[d-bagerson]

Thunderhammer assault termies, 6 are 240 points, 16 daemonettes/14 bloodletters are 224 points.

 

Daemonettes charge, 32 hits, 5 rends and 5 wounds, 2.5 die. 3.5 swing back, 3.5 hits, 2 die. Next round 1.75 termies die, and ~2 swing back, 2 hits, 1 dies. Daemonettes, as you can see, will win this, but after 3-4 rounds.

 

Bloodletters charge, 6 wounds, termies all die, blood letters win in 1 round.

Bloodletters charge in cover, 6 termies swing, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3.33 bloodletters die, termies still die in 1 round.

 

Termie charge, Daemonettes kill 2, 4 termies swing, 4 hits, ~2 die. Next round 1.75 termies die, 2 more daemonettes die. Next round 1.5 termies die, 1 daemonette dies. Final round, termies die.

 

Termies charge bloodletters, bloodletters kill 3. 9 termie swings, 2.5 bloodletters die. Next round, bloodletters probably kill termies.

 

Don't hammer termies have a 3+ invuln save?

 

Any who, one of the things about nettes is that they're so underrated. I know I personally would shoot at bletters if I saw those two units turn 1. At that point, I would most certainly get charged, and that doesn't work out well (not sure exact numbers) after that units like bletters can drop and start assaulting. Plague bearers would work better for the tying up, except that they can't usually get there.

 

So, nettes drop turn 1 with icons, assault turn 2 while bletters drop safely. This also means that the bletters can drop closer while the nettes (with fleet and 1st turn run) don't have to take risky drops that could lose you a unit. Then, turn 2, bletters assault and destroy things (doesn't really matter what things).