tedwin183 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 So I am building an 8 man bike squad to use as a troop choice along with a bike captain. I have the bike captain loaded out like Warp Angel's. Hellfire rounds, relic blade. The 8 man bike squad will have a PF serg...but I am not sure what special weapons I should take...or if I should bring any. Seems to me like TL boltgun fire is going to be fairly effective en masse. I like the idea of a flamer...but I won't be bringing my bikes into terrain...so the flamer loses that perk...and I really don't plan on charging them into terrain to get into combat...so the flamer really is kind of pointless. I like the idea of 2 plasma guns...but with my rolling, I'll be losing at least one of those bikes to getting hot. Meltas seem like the best choice...but if I bring an attack bike with MM, isn't it over kill? Also, I'm not sure if bikes are treated the same way in C:SM as in the DA codex...but does the attack bike break off on it's own like DA attack bikes do, or does the attack bike stay in the squad with the other 8 bikes? Anyways...please weigh in on this matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 If you take a captain on bike with relic blade then you can do the following 8 bikes and attack bike split into combat squads 1st : (5)Sergeant with fist, 4 bikers to be accompanied by captain for CC mayhem 2nd : (3+1)Attack bike with MM, 2 bikers with meltaguns for dedicated anti-tank If you take the option of an attack bike with the bike squad then its classed as a unit upgrade and cannot split off later. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The attack bike stays with the squad, and counts as 2 models for the purposes of Combat Squading. And mostly, people go Melta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The attack bike stays with the squad, and counts as 2 models for the purposes of Combat Squading. And mostly, people go Melta. I use the flamer as part of anti-horde, not just for clearing stuff from terrain. But yeah, most people go melta on bikes for both cost and less risk compared to plasma. I like the plasma better for what I use my bikes for, but that's me. I never find that the multi-melta is overkill on my bikes. I LIKE having at least one insta-kill weapon in the squad, and it's a bonus that it eats tanks more often than just about anything else I can put on the table. The only thing I suggest is DO NOT combat squad your bikes. You reduce the overall firepower and make them relatively ineffective in assault. If you need a tank hunting group or want smaller squads that aren't going to get in CC, go with attack bike squads. 3 twin linked bolters and 3 multi meltas/heavy bolters for almost exactly the same cost as half a bike squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Duplicate post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The only thing I suggest is DO NOT combat squad your bikes. You reduce the overall firepower and make them relatively ineffective in assault. If you need a tank hunting group or want smaller squads that aren't going to get in CC, go with attack bike squads. 3 twin linked bolters and 3 multi meltas/heavy bolters for almost exactly the same cost as half a bike squad. I would recomend the opposite, but that's due to the differing way I would use Bikes. You use them as a core unit, around which you build other units as supporting features. I would use them as the supporting feature to my core. Hence, I prefer the ability to have them strike in multiple sections of the battlefield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I use a squad of 6 bikes and an attack bike with two meltas and one multimelta and I have to say they are tough as nails mate. I give them a job to do and that is take out the armour first or terminators or anything tough and then when needed help the rest out with bolter and assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yeah it's seeming like the melta is the way to go. saves a few points and isn't as dangerous/ one-sided as a plas or flamer. I do really love Warp Angel's bike captain load out though. It's the absolute best of both worlds, nasty cc and nasty shooty. I'd love to see the look on an eldar player's face when he moves a wraithlord into charge range and I open up on it and then slice it down in combat. For those of you who use flamers or plas, what roles do you typically give your bikers that this is your desired loadout? I'm looking at these bikes as a spearhead to my army. Sort of the fast, tough to bring down linch pin that my whole army sort of falls behind and either supports, or runs along with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1849789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
asur03 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 How are you going to chop up a Wraithlord in CC with a S6 Relic Blade? Just wondering in case I'm missing something... Also, unless you're going for a somewhat one-dimensional bike squad I'd stay away from Plasma. Flamer is great against cover / horde as has already been covered and melta gives you anti-tank, termy, character, etc plus the ability to assault. With such a fast moving unit CC should be embraced. The bikes can be a great support to a unit like assault marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1850163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 When I take my bikes: 8 Bikes, Sergeant with Powerfist, 2 Meltaguns, 1 Multi-Melta Attack Bike I can see taking plasma on bikes. I don't like taking a flamer, because quite honestly, you already have enough anti-horde firepower with the ungodly number of twin-linked bolter shots that come out of that squad. The captain I use with them: Space Marine Bike, Thunder Hammer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1850232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 I didn't mean to use chop in a manner that made it seem like the captain was just going to waltz up and destroy the wraithlord. It's simple logic though. A str 6 weapon is going to wound a wraithlord on a 6+...no other biker is going to do any damage except a serg with a PF or TH. To boot, the wraithlord wouldn't get it's armour save either. But again, this captain isn't meant to be a wraithlord hunter. He's just able to do combat with a wraithlord. Secondly...bikes are relentless...so a plasma gunner on a bike would still be able to assault after he rapid fired, or at least that's how I've read it. I may just not take any special weapons...or if any, just one melta and then the attack bike. I dunno. It's becoming less appealing to set any bike differently than stock. 2 melta guns would be the way i'd go if any, I think... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1851362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Meltaguns being STR8 and therefore ID to T4 is significant when comparing them to Plasma Guns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1851416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 For me, the big advantage to meltaguns is this: Bikes are fast movers on the table, other than through terrain. A lot of times you will have the opportunity to swoop in, pop a transport, and then tie up the squad that drops out of it in assault (if it was a dedicated transport). However, the downside to failing at this maneuver is extremely high, as you're a sitting duck in front of the squad you wanted to eliminate. Thus, to hedge that downside and prevent defeat from being snatched from the jaws of victory, I like multiple redundancy with regard to my vehicle killing weapons. In other words, I'd rather pay 10 more points to make sure that rhino or wave serpent is really, seriously dead in the face than to save 10 points only to have my bikes get railed when the multi-melta attack bike fails to do its job (as it will do every so often). Downside protection! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1851545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I agree with Reinholt... you need to make sure that your units have built-in redundancy in their role to ensure success. It's one of my greatest frustrations with Tactical squads... their only redundancy is in being able to shoot with bolters.... :| I also think that bikes are wasted without the upgrades to special weapons of some kind. They are the perfect delivery platform for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1851547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brgerkng Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I've been using lists with bikes as my primary troop choice for a while now and its worked pretty well so far. I'm still experimenting with how to equip my bikes so take my suggestions with that in mind. I like having meltaguns as opposed to plasma in general, but plasma does have its uses. You should always take the multimelta attack bike, in addition to being the "heavy weapon" of the squad, it allows you to hide a wound. I use 2 full squads using melta weapons and I've been combat squading them with the meltas in one combat squad and the bolters in the other. While this allows for 2 small units, one anti infantry and the other anti tank. They are both somewhat fragile and at risk of taking leadership checks and running away. I also field a squad of 6 bikes and MM attack bike, with 2 plasma. I'm still not convinced this is the best solution. Meltaguns are great for anti tank, but suffer from being close range. Plasma allows for taking shots at range or rapidfiring, but do cost more and even though losing a guy to overheat doesn't happen too often, it is a risk. Depending on the size game you play (I do a lot of 1850pts), the cost of plasma over melta isn't as much of a concern unless you really need to be conscious of points. What should also be considered is to have attack bikes squads. I find that either heavy bolters or multi meltas are good as a cheap addition. I do have one powerfist among my bikes, mostly as a backup. Anything I would have the powerfist for, I imagine meltas would be just as good if not better for. I have yet to face a wraithlord or too many walkers, but I would be very hesitant to even let my bikes get near something I would have to worry about in assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1851647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 When would I use the meltas over the normal TL Boltgun fire? Before the charge? Clearly they'd be used when approaching anything with a 2+ sv... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1852910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 When would I use the meltas over the normal TL Boltgun fire? Before the charge? Clearly they'd be used when approaching anything with a 2+ sv... Against MEQ every turn!!! GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1852925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 When would I use the meltas over the normal TL Boltgun fire? Before the charge? Clearly they'd be used when approaching anything with a 2+ sv... Vs. Ork Nobz, MEQ, 'nidzilla Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1852946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Basically, against anything that meets one of the following criteria for when to use the meltas: T5 or greater. Armor save 4+ or better. Vehicle. Multiple Wounds (and can be instant killed). In other words, almost everything other than basic guardsmen type units. The meltas are better anti-armor save and way better anti-vehicle, and they give your unit a lot of options. A melta-weapon can kill anything a bolter can kill, but the reverse is not true. If I'm in a land raider and you don't have meltas, for instance, your bike squad has a real problem. If you do have meltas, my land raider has a real problem. I can't stress enough that adding a few meltas to the unit makes it a very swift double threat; your opponent has to fear for his infantry (due to the volume of twin-linked bolters) and for his heavy troops and armored units (due to 3 meltas). Plasma can work as well, but not quite as good against real heavy armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1853091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brgerkng Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I think Reinholt just summed up the importance of meltas nicely. With the amount of bikes I use, vehicles tend to be a high priority target due to the fact most vehicles have weapons that negate the benefits of having toughness 5 and speed. The only thing you need to be worried about is that meltaguns have a range 12", meaning that if you get in range to use meltaguns, you might also be in range for enemy rapid-fire or assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1853187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I rely on my bikes for anti-infantry, so I prefer a flamer/plasma mix. I must emphasize though, that's personal preference, not because I think it's inherently more effective than an all meltas loadout. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1853766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I rely on my bikes for anti-infantry, so I prefer a flamer/plasma mix. I must emphasize though, that's personal preference, not because I think it's inherently more effective than an all meltas loadout. I don't use my bikes this way personally (see the melta setup above), but I have seen a few people who do, and they have been effective - so listen to what Warp Angel is saying here as well. My personal inclination is to avoid flamers on bikes to maximize the value of relentless for the plasmaguns if you go that route, but I could see the flamers being effective as well... that one I have less experience with. More notably, keep in mind you have the 12" move plus up to 24" shooting, so with the plasma weapons he's talking about you have a 36" threat radius in any given turn, which is pretty spectacular as things go. Keep that in mind when positioning them; maximizing the uncertainty for your foe about where they will show up to blast the hell out of his units will greatly increase the psychological value of the bikes and extend your ability to disguise your own gameplan. Double points if you screen them with something cheap like a rhino to prevent them from being easily countered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1854107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Double points if you screen them with something cheap like a rhino to prevent them from being easily countered. I love me some rhinos. Though Razorbacks are just as annoying and more potent in distracting things from your bikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1854200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Couple of bike questions for my (planned) Captain: 1) Thunder hammer in one hand, pistol in the other, does he still get +1 attack bonus(ie can he steer with his knees :) )? 2) One dangerous terrain test will cost me 190pts (Art arm, Hellfire); I would expect a Captain to have Skilled Rider, but there's no option. Is there a way of acquiring this, or is it a xenos thing? 3) Anyone got any models to show for a bike HQ? I'm going to use a Ramshackle Games long-forked scambler, fancy a head thrown back, swinging hammer wide pose! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1855898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bt2278 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Even if he steers with his knees... you never get +1 attack with thunderhammer + pistol (Rulebook, p. 42) :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158057-special-weapons-on-bikes/#findComment-1855927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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