New Grey Knights player

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

I have been a DA player for a while now and I recently read the UM book 'The Killing Ground'. I was inspired by the GK sections of the book and I wanted to collect some Grey Knights. At the moment their starting off as a detachment, but I may consider making them a larger army in the future.

I have ordered the codex and 5 PAGK from my local hobby store, and am planning to read and assemble them respectively ASAP.

I'm looking for advice on other purchases to make, basic tactics, incorparating them into my DA army, and anything else helpful

Thanks in advance

 

-Simoleo

[Mal]

Well...there are a few point to remember when handling GK's...

 

They are significantly more expensive than any other marine avaliable to you. Shooting wise, they only have a slight advantage over standard tac marines, the biggest note is the extended range on the move, make use of this to whittle down your target before getting in close. The other thing to remember is that while their greatest strength lies in combat... they lack grenades... Don't be stomping off into cover to pick a fight, make them come to you. It doesn't matter if you charge or if you get charged, GK's have the same number of attacks either way (thanks to true grit, they use the stormbolter as a pistol giving +1A, but never gain +1A for charging, which means a standard PAGK always has 2 attacks).

 

They can be really useful for picking on MC's and light armour, I have used them to rip apart a Tau Hammerhead in combat, thanks to their Str6 attacks.

 

Generally, make full use of your strengths, but be aware of your weaknesses. Granted this is true for any force, but it is more so for GK.

[Aidoneus]

Check out the stickied threads up at the top of the Ordos page. There's lots of terrific stuff there.

 

For what to buy, I recommend getting blisters instead of box sets. You just don't need that many Justicars and Incinerators compared to regular grey knights.

 

As you expand your force, heavy support is going to become extremely important. Basic grey knight squads are excellent at killing infantry, but they don't have much in the way of anti-tank. For that, you will need either Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders. Most people (myself included) believe that you need to take at least two dreadnoughts, or alternatively at least two Raiders, for them to be effective. Otherwise they tend to die before doing their job.

 

You will also need an HQ. Because you'll need one to unlock Dreads and Raiders, you absolutely need a GK Hero. I personally like a lone Brother Captain stuck in with one of my squads, so the HQ doesn't take up too many points in my already-elitist army. However, other people prefer to take either the BC or the beefier Grand Master along with a retinue of GK Terminators, to add some nice close combat kick. I suppose it comes down to personal preference.

 

Of course, all that is for a regular GK-heavy daemonhunter army. For allies in your DA army, your unit selection really depends on what role you need the GKs to fill. As I said, they're best at anti-infantry. They're pretty good in assault, but not stellar, so probably best used as reactionary-cc, not as your main assault unit. With 24" assault weapons, they tend to be really flexible, as they can move around the field while laying down a constant hail of bolts.

[Marid]

I would get a few more blisters of regular GKs and maybe two GKs with Psycannons. While Psycannons have only 18" range on the move, they are still great heavy weapons that can be fired on the move. And you will want to be able to move your GKs at any time, because your opponent will likely see them as priority target number 1. Duck and weave, duck and weave, shoot, shoot, shoot! And when CC has to come, remember that you're WS 5.

 

And pie plates hurt!

 

Good luck, and welcome aboard. :)

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

Thanks for all the responses so far guys :rolleyes:

 

@Mal: Tau Hammerheads you say? hmmmm, I know a few Tau players I wanna try that on :P

 

@Aidoneus: You have just given me more of a reason to add heavy support to my army ;)

And i need some more anti-infantry as well, so thanks again :D

 

@Marid: Duck and Weave is some advice I'll take on board. Thanks :)

 

-Simoleo

[Adoremus]

Depending on how fast you want to build a GK army and how competitive it is suppossed to be (as oppossed to simply fun, the way I play the game), I would recommend a small squad of GK terminators with a BC or GM with Psycannon and another Psycannon wielding brother.

 

Not that they were the best points to performance ratio, but they look cool and can be a threat. First time I brought mine to the table and called for a shrouding test the IG player almost...er...leaked. :rolleyes:

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

@Adoremus: Leaking guard players is always worth a giggle :rolleyes:

Only thing that puts me off the terminators is their price tag, but maybe for the future :D

And in answer to your other question, I play for fun at my local club :)

 

-Simoleo

[Adoremus]

I guess everyone plays for fun (what other reason is there), but I have learned to live with a record way below 50-50, because I rarely field what most would call a competitive army list.

Funny thing is whenever I do win, I tend to wipe my opponent of the table. :rolleyes:

 

I bought my first set of terminators of ebay which was good as start...and got addicted...now I have 25

 

Oh, and if you're financial resources are limited, it may take a while till you got a proper GK force. Due to the all metal models and the hints you received (models in blisters are usually more expensive than in boxes) GK forces are one of the most expensive armies to collect.

[Mal]

A word of advice about shrouding... while it can be useful, do not rely on it... the average distance is 22.5 inches... now think the board is only 48 inches from one side to the other, and both players generally start upto 12 inches in.... it doesn't take long (1 turn is the norm) for the enemy to get within the average distance putting the odds of seeing you in their favour.

[Thaelion Hexis]

A word of advice about shrouding... while it can be useful, do not rely on it... the average distance is 22.5 inches... now think the board is only 48 inches from one side to the other, and both players generally start upto 12 inches in.... it doesn't take long (1 turn is the norm) for the enemy to get within the average distance putting the odds of seeing you in their favour.

 

True, but it does help with the longer ranged low AP weaponry occasionally.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

A word of advice about shrouding... while it can be useful, do not rely on it... the average distance is 22.5 inches... now think the board is only 48 inches from one side to the other, and both players generally start upto 12 inches in.... it doesn't take long (1 turn is the norm) for the enemy to get within the average distance putting the odds of seeing you in their favour.

 

You are totally right about not counting on shrouding, when it works - it is like a hail mary. But there is a reason that you don't see to many hail mary's... One thing, I have found the average range to be closer to 30" - thought I had seen some mathammer on the net somewhere on why this happens statistically.

 

I would give my left genetically enhanced *** to get an average of 22.5" on shrouding...

[Marid]

The expected value (mean) of one roll of a die is 3.5. With 3d6, the mean is 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 = 10.5. Multiply by 3 and, voila! 31.5 inches.

 

So, yeah, don't rely on the Shrouding for much other than keeping across the board shots at bay.

[Aidoneus]

Shrouding works, just only for a few select purposes. It's not going to cover your advance, as is the case with Harlequins' Veil of Tears (an average of 14" and a MAX of 24"). However, it has, I have found, three purposes for which is works quite well.

 

1) Uncertainty: While Shrouding won't stop many mid-range shots, it will stop some. And when it stops one shot, it stops a whole unit's worth of shots, and simultaneously prevents that unit from shooting anything else that turn. Oftentimes, your opponent will have a good idea of how many GKs each of his units can kill, and he will maneuver and divide up his shooting accordingly. What the Shrouding does in this case is to make him uncertain about whether each of his units will be able to do its job that turn. This will have one of two effects: 1) he will "double-cover" your units, to make sure he can kill them with something, even though this often means sub-optimal killing ratios, as he will end up over-killing only a select few of your units, or 2) he will ignore Shrouding, in which case every now and then it will do its job and save a unit, which is often enough of an opportunity to tip the balance in your favor.

 

2) Protecting Long-Range Shooting: There are two squads that can make use of this best: psycannon "mini-purgation" squads (Troop squad with 2 psycannons), and psycannon-wielding GK Termies. Because Shrouding has an average range of 31.5", and a psycannon's range is 36", these units can sit back at maximum range and rely on Shrouding to stop more than half of the incoming fire. Think of it like a 4+ save for the unit before your enemy can even roll to hit!

 

3) Isolating a Flank: This one's my favorite. Consider, if you walk up the center you'll probably be within 36" or so of even his back-field heavy weapons, and much closer to his front line. If you're on a flank, however, you'll be much farther away from about one third to one half of his army. This can help set up pockets of superior power, while his far-away units either sit and watch or spend time moving closer. I find this works especially well if you have some sort of fast deliver method, like a Land Raider transport that can drive to one side, or deep-striking directly onto an extreme flank.

 

In short, is Shrouding a phenomenal ability that will win you games by itself? Not really. But is it still quite useful in the right circumstances? Absolutely!

[SamaNagol]

In terms of what to buy? You have to take at least one GKT model as either your BC or GM HQ choice. I would recommend you pick up 1 box of Grey Knight Terminators and 1 blister pack of a Terminator with a Psycannon. This way you have enough for 1 squad of Terminators should you wish to include one, with both special weapons.

 

For the Power Armoured flavour Grey Knights it would be a good idea to pick up around 16 of the bog standard ones in blister packs and 3 blisters of Justicars.

 

Then you can decide which Power Armoured special weapons you want and pick them up individually. And also decide on whether you want to play a foot slogging list with Dreadnoughts or a fully mobile list with Land Raiders.

 

I really highly recommend WaylandGames.co.uk They offer tremendous value if you are in the UK.

[Adoremus]

I have played enough (painful) games to know that shrouding is not a sure bet cover. But against my friends first IG army set up it worked well as he tended to use 2 Basilisks which even though having an AP to high to simply penetrate my GKT were always a painful threat from a distance.

 

Unless you are deep-striking your GKT I would actually give the BC/GM a Psycannon as well.

[Mal]

Yep my bad, I screwe3d my math on that one (which is really embrassing since im great at math), unfortunately the 31.5 is actually a worse average for GK forces.... so my point still stands.

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

Thanks for all the advice about shrouding. It seems like a useful rule, but I won't rely on it. :)

And I intend to get a squad or two of PAGK before moving onto terminators, for cost purposes. I also want to get a feel for the army before buying something like terminators.

My next question to you lovely people is what HQ would you recommend?

Thanks

 

-Simoleo

[Spartans]

HQ wise if you have the points I will always go for a Grand Master just because the 3 wounds and BS 5, give him a psycannon and your laughing, that being said general thoughts are 1500 pts or less go for a Brother-Captain to save on points but I personally go for under 1000 pts.

 

Also you want to give either HQ a rentinue the minimum allowed is 3 Terminators, this will allow them to live longer.

 

You may just take the BC because you have to and then max out in other places and use him as a target, not really caring if he dies or not.

 

Note that I play pure Grey Knights so can not comment on Inquisitors.

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

@Spartans

As I intend for this to be a fully grey knights detachment, inquisitors aren't what I need info on :)

And I may buy the Brother-Captain Stern model and then use him for all HQ roles :)

Can I ask, has anyone used Stern? If yes, how did you find him?

 

-Simoleo

[Spartans]

Can I ask, has anyone used Stern? If yes, how did you find him?

 

Have never used Stern and would never use him.

 

Look at the stats might aswell take a Grand Master and get the extra wound for 4 pts more cost.

 

Ok you lose the psychic powers but in my experience the only one I have used is Sanctury, and thats only against Daemons other than that let him fire his psycannon (which you should give to a Grand Master), preety much 3 hits and 3 wounds and it ignores inv saves.

 

Next you lose Grimoire of True Names only handy against Daemons so mostly a waste would prefer to have Icon of the Just and get 4+ Inv. save.

 

Plus the whole strands of fate seems a little 6 of one half a dozen of the other to me, as in you dont get much benefit from it.

 

So in general prefer to take a Basic Grand Master than a basic Stern and much prefer to take a kitted up Grand Master at around 200 pts than basic or kitted Stern.

 

Just my thoughts on Stern anyway hope it helps

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

Hmmm, has anyone got any good points for Stern? If there are any :)

I am going towards the grand master, though probably using the stern model :)

 

-Simoleo

[Adoremus]

Go for the GM. Whenever I decide to deep-strike them, I usually opt for Holocaust as psychic power.

[Auedawen]

The ONLY reason to take Stern is he gives you access to a second Grey Knight Force Weapon (one that works on Eternal Warrior models) and an HQ who's a grey knight with more than 1 wound. But he's way to expensive for his value IMO.

[Simoleo-Brother marine]

Ok then :(

I think the choice is grand master :D

thanks for all the advice guys ;)

 

-Simoleo

[Marid]

I'm planning to give Stern a whirl over the next few games. I think he might actually be fun to use. Some people swear by him but most bemoan him. Anyway, I'll see how it goes. :)