Ultramarines and their Realm

[The Dean]

Greetings, Brothers.

 

As I am in the process of detailing my DIY Ultramarine-Successor (link in my sig), I came across the question how much involvement from a Space Marine Chapter into the Administratum duties of a World, Subsector or even Sector can be reasonably justified within the canon-limits.

Naturally, I turn to this subforum, as the Ultramarines are the only canon chapter to actually have their own somewhat sovereign realm.

 

But how much of the administration and governing is really done by the chapter?

 

How much is Clagar really involved in running Macragge?

 

Do the Ultramarines accept Administratum staff?

 

Or do they exclusively rely on their own serfs?

 

And, hinging on this questoin:

How big is Ultramar? Sector sized? Subsector?

 

Enlighten me! ^_^

[The Emperor's Champion]

Ultramar is 7-9 star systems occupying a section of space that seems to be larger than the whole Tau Empire (but the Tau have way more worlds crammed in there).

 

Every world will have a Planetary Governor and likely every planet will answer to the master of their system's Captial planet which it seems are the Captains of the Ultramarines (for example, Sicarius is the Duke Of Talassar).

The Captains in turn of course answer to Lord Macragge (Marneus Calgar).

 

I assume every Governor, Captain and Calgar to have their own administration set up to deal with day to day operations so that every little daily detail isn't their concern. My guess would be that Planetary Governors would employ the citizens of their worlds while the Captains and Lord Macragge's administration would consist of Chapter Serfs, "Administrative Staff", "Support Personnel" and "Senior Officers".*

 

 

 

 

*"Administrative Staff", "Support Personnel" and "Senior Officers" are all listed in the Headquarters section of the Codex Astartes Chapter Organization chart.

[Mal]

But how much of the administration and governing is really done by the chapter?

This varies a little, on planets directly controlled by UM, I would expect to see only token admin staff, but on planets further out, I think its likely to be a bit of a mix.

 

How much is Clagar really involved in running Macragge?

Calgar is one of the more hands on chapter masters, on Macragge there is only one higher authority... and thats the emperor.

 

Do the Ultramarines accept Administratum staff?

Yes, of this they have no choice.

 

Or do they exclusively rely on their own serfs?

Not exclusively, they do have a much larger number of serfs than most other chapters (well all other chapters... probally combined), but they have no choice to accept admin staff, it was after all RB who gave the reigns over to the Administratum.

 

And, hinging on this questoin:

How big is Ultramar? Sector sized? Subsector?

I personally don't know the exact size, but tis a substantial protion of the imperium...

[Legatus]

From the Index Astartes Ultramarines:

Collectively these are known as Ultramar and, while each has its own government, armed forces and individual cultures, all look to the Ultramarines and Macragge for leadership.

Since Space Marine Captains are usually fairly busy with waging war, I assmue that means that in case of disputes the systems rely on Calgars wise solutions, but will otherwise largely rely on their own government. Perhaps every few weeks a decorated Ultramarine representative (might boe one of the Captains) has a look at the current events to see that everything is good.

 

When looking to their defence, each world maintains its own dedicated armies, but can also call upon the protection of the Ultramarines. They are not required to levy troops for the Imperial Guard, but such is the prosperity and disciplined nature of Ultramar that hundreds of regiments stand ready to fight throughout the galaxy.

As far as I have always understood it, Ultramar is largely a souvereign realm. They don't have to pay tithes or levy troops, since all the resources are at the discretion of the Ultramarines Chapter, and they don't have to pay the Imperium nuthin. For the same reason there will probably not be too much Imperial or Administratum intervention. Space Marines usually don't have to put up with that. Indeed, the Imperium is not involved in the matters of every world. As long as the world pays their dues they are left to themselves. Only if there are problems, or if the products of the world are substantial will the Imperium establish a more direct controll over the world.

[Brother Pariah]

Marneus Calgar wears several hats. One of his titles is "Imperial Commander," which gives him overlordship over Macragge (or possibly Ultramar) in the eyes of the larger Imperium. Another of his titles is "Lord of Ultramar," which, under the Treaty of Macragge, makes him the liege lord of the rulers of the other planets of Ultramar. Who those rulers are is another question. Is Cato Sicarius the head of state of Talassar due to his title of "Duke of Talassar?" I'm uncertain.

 

Ultramar is described as both a sector and a sub-sector in various sources, but I'm confident that it is a sub-sector. It is variously described as being composed of eight planets and eight star systems.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I think it COULD be sector sized to be honest.

IF the 40k Starmap is to be believed then Ultramar is something like 3500 lightyears long by 1400 lightyears wide and presumably it has some "thickness" too (maximum of 1000 lightyears thick, because that's the thickness of the Milky Way).

According to Lexicanum

Each Segmentum is divided into Sectors. The size of a sector varies according to local demands and stellar density. A typical sector might encompass 7 million cubic light years, equivalent to a cube with sides almost 200 light years long. Sectors are in turn divided into Subsectors.

(apparently from WD 139 or 140)

This would imply Ultramar to actually be numerous Sectors in size.

And actually this galaxy map is only 50,000 lightyears across when the real Milky Way is 100,000 lightyears across, soooo.....that would make Ultramar actually twice that big in every dimension and even if THIS particular map is out of whack all the others do tend to show something similar.

 

 

But once again, this is what happens when we look a bit too closely at the math and measurements involved with the background of our happy little sci-fi universe. ;)

 

 

 

It is almost always described as 8 systems of planets so far as I've seen.

I guess 8 is the number if you ignore Circe and Konor. One I guess isn't actually inhabited and the other is an Inquisition stronghold (right?).

[The Dean]

Alright. Thanks for the Feedback guys!

 

So basically the marines act as supervisors and as the highest court of appeal, so to say, but stay out of everyday politics and administration as it is detailed in Roboutes Codex.

But Calgar does give out the greater directives and intervenes when the worlds do not act as deemed neccessary. I take it the Ultramarines are not only concerned with the military economy, but also with teh more "mundande" tasks of governing their realm?

 

Wich leads to the question: How much the Codex Astartes is concerned with such things as the politics and less direct aspects of warfare and the leading of an empire?

 

In regards to the size of Ultramar, in a BFG Campaign Ruleset that Com. Molotov linked me to in my DIY thread, Subsectors are represented as groups of 10 to 14 Systems. So I would assume that Ultramar is Subsector-Sized, but not really part of a sector, at least in an administrative sense.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Hey! You live in in the same town as my cousin! I'll probably be over there this summer.

 

 

Anyhow, I'm not totally sure how to measure Sectors and Sub-sectors. It seems BFG and WD contradict each other on that subject.

 

Yes the Ultramarines deal with ALL aspects of government when necessary (transportation, trade, military, etc etc). I doubt too much of the Codex Astartes deals with how to run a government, That's not its purpose. Guilliman was the greatest tactician and organizer/administrator around, so his tactics got passed on to all the Marines through the Codex Astartes, but the rest of his talents were passed on directly to his Ultramarines (and maybe their successors). Or at least that's how I understand it.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I would say Ultramar is one of the larger sub-sectors. The reason for this is it does not have a Battlefleet. Space Marine Chapters are not supposed to be able to be the best straight-up space combat, instead specialising in planetary assault, in order to maintain the balance of power and ensure the Imperial Navy is able to maintain any renegade Chapters. So, regardless of Space Marine presence, each sector has a Battlefleet (Battlefleet Gothic, Battlefleet Scarus, Battlefleet Cadia etc.), and in turn each Segmentum also has its own Battlefleet (Battlefleet Obscurus, Battlefleet Tempestus, Battlefleet Solar, Battlefleet Ultima and Battlefleet Pacificus). The Sector Battlefleets can be added to the Segmentum Battlefleet as necessary, but the standing Segmentum Battlefleet is larger than the standard Sector Battlefleet. The Sector Battlefleets are spread out on patrol through their sub-sectors, with the largest standing strength maintained at the Sector Base (Cadia, Port Maw etc).

 

At the Battle of Macragge, Ultramar required the aid of Battlefleet Bakka to defeat the Tyranids in the battle at the rings of Circe (no doubt leaving the reserve Battlefleet Bakka to defende Bakka and the rest of the sector whilst they were busy). This means Ultramar did not have a standing Imperial Navy fleet, as any Sector would. This means Ultramar cannot be classed as a Sector, regardless of size, given that the Ultramarines are barred from controlling any Imperial Navy assets as their own. Larger than most sub-sectors it may be, but it cannot be a Sector.

[The Emperor's Champion]

That's not necessarily true. Ultramar COULD (not saying it does) actually take up an entire sector's space or lie between 2 sectors taking up half the space of each. What's restricting it from being inside a single one? I'm not convinced "Space Marine Sub-Empire" is a standardized organizational district that will fall neatly into other political boundaries. So anyways, it could be that Ultramar basically takes up 100% of Sector Bakka while Bakka's headquarters is an independent planet/system within Ultramar the same way that Konor is the local independent Inquisition Fortress-World.

 

The Ultramarines may not have an Imperial Navy fleet per se, but the Ultramar PDF is guaranteed to have quite a substantial fleet to patrol and guard something as massive as Ultramar (I still assume it to be somewhat smaller than a real Navy Fleet tho).

[Legatus]

Ultramar does have it's own shipyard, but I don't know about the fleet at their disposal. I don't recall reading about an Ultramar fleet, really. Though reading about how autonomous the defenses of the Ultramar systems are one could perhaps assume that they have one.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Oh, my bad, Konor is the local AdMech research world, Talasa Prime is the Inquisition Fortress.

[The Dean]

Hey! You live in in the same town as my cousin! I'll probably be over there this summer.

 

You sure you dont mean hAmburg? :) I live in hOmburg, wich is a town with about 50k inhabitants in western germany. A couple of miles from the Rammstein Airbase, if that is any help to you... :)

 

So anyways, it could be that Ultramar basically takes up 100% of Sector Bakka while Bakka's headquarters is an independent planet/system within Ultramar the same way that Konor is the local independent Inquisition Fortress-World.

 

That' actually impossible in the GW Canon-Verse, if the Galaxy Maps are anything to go by. Bakka is the HQ of Battlefleet Tempestus and as such actually situated in a different Segmentum than Ultramar. :)

 

What I find irritating is that Ultramar is described as a huge realm, but only incorpotares 8 Systems, whereas most subsectors around the Cadian gate and in the Gothic Sector as well have 10 or more systems.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I do mean Homburg (not too far from the French border).

The town/village of Eiweiler is 35,5 km to your west. That's where I'll likely be most of the time. :)

[The Dean]

Heh. That's pretty cool.

 

How old is your cousin? Homburg is not that big, I might actually know him... :)

[The Emperor's Champion]

19 or 20 I think?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Ultramarines may not have an Imperial Navy fleet per se, but the Ultramar PDF is guaranteed to have quite a substantial fleet to patrol and guard something as massive as Ultramar (I still assume it to be somewhat smaller than a real Navy Fleet tho).

 

Absolutely not. That would massively breach the edict forbidding Imperial Army commanders (now Guard and PDF) from commanding starships. Ultramarine serfs could crew defence monitors (system ships that do not have warp drives and due to their low speed do not leave orbit) and Orbital Defence Satellites (missile silos, laser satellites etc.). The only ships outside the Ultramarines fleet they could concievably have would be AdMech ships attached to Legio Praetor. But, since Titans are carried by Super-heavy Transport, the most you could expect would be a squadron of escorts and perhaps a cruiser.

 

That's not necessarily true. Ultramar COULD (not saying it does) actually take up an entire sector's space or lie between 2 sectors taking up half the space of each. What's restricting it from being inside a single one? I'm not convinced "Space Marine Sub-Empire" is a standardized organizational district that will fall neatly into other political boundaries.

 

Size is not a question, as I mentioned. Despite being a larger grouping than most sub-sectors, it would be unlikely to be classed as a Sector. Your points add into that to come to the conclusion that it would not be classed at all. However, Sectors are massive areas of space. If Ultramar is larger than a Sector its heading into Segmentum territory, given that some Ultima Segmentum Sectors are coming lose to the size of Segmentum Solar or Segmentum Obscurus. I still stand by my estimate that it would be a large area of space, but not as big as a Sector. Most Sectors will have more than one Space Marine Chapter. If Ultramar was a Sector why does it only have the Ultramarines? They don't have excessive numbers to make up the gap.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Nay, the Imperial Army was split into Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard.

PDF forces still maintain their own ships, they're simply limited by not having enough numbers to do anything but defend their worlds. They have just enough to stall attacking forces long enough for Imperial Guard/Navy or Space Marine aid to arrive.

If you go try and start something somewhere else say bye bye to your homeworld little PDF men!

 

At least this is how I've always understood it.

 

 

I'm not saying Ultramar would be classified as a Sector. I'm saying it may very well be the SIZE of a Sector while actually being spread across the boundaries of multiple Sectors. I also doubt the Ultima Segmentum Sectors are any larger than Segmentum Solar's. More than likely there are just more of them, especially given that White Dwarf said a Sector is 7 million cubic light years worth of space rather than some variable number drawn at random.

[Captain Idaho]

Something that Mal said in reference to Administration staff in Ultramar;

 

Yes, of this they have no choice.

 

is an interesting matter for discussion. As a Space Marine Chapter, the Ultramarines have a certain amount of autonomy from them, but we all know that the Ultramarines don't hide anything from the Imperium. I'm inclined to say that the Ultramarines run things 100% themselves, but allow token "observers" from the Imperium's various factions to make sure things are going on ok.

 

Similar to Inquisitorial observation. There's a fortress within Ultramar they own, so what role do they have within Ultramar (logically, as there is little fluff regarding that specifically)? The Inquisition are untrusting, even of the seamingly infallible Ultramarines. Sure they use it as a staging post for investigations, but it's also a convenient spot to start investigations into possible heresy within Ultramar...

 

Funnily enough, Ultramar must have it's own dissidents despite the large amounts of loyalty most citizens have, that requires investigation and I doubt the Ultramarines have time to investigate a few rabble rousers. But would the Ultramarines approve of official investigations into their own homeworlds?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Emperor's Champion Posted Today, 07:07 PM

Nay, the Imperial Army was split into Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard.

PDF forces still maintain their own ships, they're simply limited by not having enough numbers to do anything but defend their worlds. They have just enough to stall attacking forces long enough for Imperial Guard/Navy or Space Marine aid to arrive.

 

In that case, they would be limited to defence monitors and system ships only. No warp-capable stuff.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I believe the Inquisition Fortress at Talasa Prime is primarily an Ordo Xenos base for keeping an eye on the Tau, Eldar and Tyranids.

 

But anyhow, I agree that the Ultramarines administrations have nothing to do with the Imperial Administratum since Space Marine governed worlds are 100% autonomous from the Imperium's normal government structure.

 

 

Perhaps the PDF ships aren't Warp capable, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were. Ultramar's a rather large place, and I'm not convinced they could cross the distances between systems quickly enough to respond to threats without Warp Drives (what type of non-Warp engines do these ships even have???). Plus, normal shipping vessels even have Warp-Drives for ordinary cargo transportation, so it seems likely that the PDF ships would too.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Perhaps the PDF ships aren't Warp capable, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were. Ultramar's a rather large place, and I'm not convinced they could cross the distances between systems quickly enough to respond to threats without Warp Drives (what type of non-Warp engines do these ships even have???). Plus, normal shipping vessels even have Warp-Drives for ordinary cargo transportation, so it seems likely that the PDF ships would too.

 

You are confusing warp-drives (for warp travel) and plasma engines, which are used for realspace travel, similar to the spacecraft engines of today. Defence Monitors are towed to their planet by warp-capable ships and left there as a garrison space defence. They are not meant to respond to threats on other planets. For that you need the real Navy (and/or in this case, the Ultramarine fleet).

 

Not all merchant shipping is warp-capable. System ships are not, and do shuttle runs throughout a single system, never leaving it. The Chartist ships are not warp-capable, spending thousands of years on a single circuit on an ancient pre-set route, housing entire cities worth of families (the void-born). A majority of shipping is warp-capable, yes, but out of necessity. A defence monitor does not need to be warp-capable, therefore it is not. The Navigator families have enough demands on them as it is.

 

But anyhow, I agree that the Ultramarines administrations have nothing to do with the Imperial Administratum since Space Marine governed worlds are 100% autonomous from the Imperium's normal government structure.

 

Not quite. Their tithe still exists, however it is counted under Administratum records as being provided to the Space Marines in the form of recruits and hence is not sent to the Administratum as new IG regiments or raw materials. Ultramar is still part of the Imperum, therefore it exists in the billions of pieces of paperwork sent daily to the Administratum, which never throws any information away. If the Space Marines leave for whatever reason, the tithe is sent to the Administratum instead, as happened to the homeworld of the Astral Claws.

[Legatus]

Space Marine homeworlds are still part of the Imperium, obviously, but they don't have to pay tithes or provide regiments for the Imperial Guard. All the resources are at the disposal of the resident Chapter. If the world seizes to be the property of a Chapter for whatever reason, it has to provide tithes and regiments as usual.

[Captain Idaho]

Dead Sky, Black Sun had an Ultramar vessel with an entire regiment of Imperial Guard raised in Ultramar. Bascially a troop vessel, transporting large numbers of armed forces. We know that Imperial Guard regiments are only supposed to have transport with the aid of the Imperial Navy, yet this vessel was warp capable and made at Calth.

 

So Ultramar is capable of building Warp capable vessels, like the Ultramarines fleet itself. It's an easy jump to believe that there are plenty of Ultramar gun boats and troop transports capable of warp flight.

 

Especially if they are travelling across Ultramar.

[Legatus]

Whether they are capable of building them is not the question. Whether they are permitted to have them is a different one. If the regiment in the Novel was Imperial Guard, then the used Ship was probably of the Imperial Navy. Unless you meant that they are Ultramar PDF.