Octavulg Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Y'know...that novel WAS written by Graham MacNeill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Just because they are not supposed to have them, doesnt mean they DONT have them After all do you think the high lords of Terra would really care, since Ultramar practically bars the door to the eastern fringe inc Tau, Eldar, Orks of Charadon and the vicious Nids.... If i were in the administratum, id turn a blind eye too!!! Either that or get them to build some ships for the local imperial navy fleet aswell. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Exactly. It's the size of Ultramar that makes them most probably have Warp-drives. The scale of the area the Ultramar PDF has to guard would be very tough to manage otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Whether they are capable of building them is not the question. Whether they are permitted to have them is a different one. If the regiment in the Novel was Imperial Guard, then the used Ship was probably of the Imperial Navy. Unless you meant that they are Ultramar PDF. They were Imperial Guard raised from a PDF regiment in Ultramar. The only difference is PDF stay planet side, Imperial Guard go travelling. The ship was built in Ultramar, though I don't think was ever designated as Imperial Navy or otherwise. I don't think (but can't remember!) if Calth supplies ships for the Navy or not. I would be inclined to say that the majority of the vessels in Ultramar follow the rules laid down by Guilliman, but it is logical to assume that there are exceptions, as implied by BFG Dominion fleets for Space Marines. Doesn't actually say either way though -_- Y'know...that novel WAS written by Graham MacNeill. Ha ha, you cruel man! B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Since it was Guilliman himself who was in charge of reorganising the imperial fighting forces I would indeed say that if Ultramar is not supposed to have a full fleet, it does not have one. But I am not sure it says anywhere whether they are allowed to have one or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Since it was Guilliman himself who was in charge of reorganising the imperial fighting forces I would indeed say that if Ultramar is not supposed to have a full fleet, it does not have one. But I am not sure it says anywhere whether they are allowed to have one or not. But we know that certain concessions were made after the nids showed up, maybe the necessity for a full fleet, outweighed the need to uphold the teachings of the codex????? perhaps, maybe, sort of! GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Precisely the problem. We can make educated guesses all day long, but in the end the truth simply hasn't been written yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 The only difference is PDF stay planet side, Imperial Guard go travelling. I thought the difference was that PDF is under local command, while Imperial Guard is under imperial command. I was kinda going by the name there though. I don't think (but can't remember!) if Calth supplies ships for the Navy or not. According to the Index Astartes Ultramarines and the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines it does. But we know that certain concessions were made after the nids showed up, maybe the necessity for a full fleet, outweighed the need to uphold the teachings of the codex????? perhaps, maybe, sort of! I dunno. Considering that there had been one single engagement about 250 years ago, and then the first new contact 7 years ago, I find that unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 When Gulliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with. Taken from the BFG Space Marine Fleets PDF (which is freely downloadable from the GW website). Just because they are not supposed to have them, doesnt mean they DONT have them Well, deviation from the codex is not something the Ultramarines are known for. ^_^ The only exception is the battlebage Seditio Opprimere, rebuilt as a pure gunboat after the Battle of Prandium. Since our assumption was that they are codex-adherent, if there were more exceptions, we'd be told. Exactly. It's the size of Ultramar that makes them most probably have Warp-drives. The scale of the area the Ultramar PDF would be very tough to manage otherwise. Why? The difference between PDF and IG is only whether they need to move off-world. The PDF do not. Inter-system ships are not required. Seriously, the breach of the navy limitations of the Space Marines on that scale would leave the Ultramarines open to accusations of sedition, honour records or not. Despite their immense tactical value, all it would take would be one over-zealous Inquisitor to level the charges and the Ultramarines would have a hard time denying them. Once you break one rule, you can break them all. Finally one more thing. If Ultramar possessed a Navy-standard fleet, where was it? With that there would have been no need for Battlefleet Bakka's assistance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I dunno. Considering that there had been one single engagement about 250 years ago, and then the first new contact 7 years ago, I find that unlikely. I think we have to admit the possibilty, at least until more evidence is sent to print. If the tyranid hunters were formed as a result of the 'engagement' (my engagement didnt result in too many deaths, you certainly have a knack with words), then imagine what else Cassius was whispering in Calgars ears. Let us not forget it was the space battle that ultimately decided the sucsess against Kraken... And unlike the armed forces of today, space marines do have military intelligence, especially since Tiggy can 'sense the force' (hive mind), perhaps they knew others were coming!, or maybe thought it a possablity at least....if you want peace prepare for war.... GC08 if there were more exceptions, we'd be told. Ah, you assume too much ^_^ If Ultramar possessed a Navy-standard fleet, where was it? With that there would have been no need for Battlefleet Bakka's assistance. What if it were built as a result of the nids invasion as i mentioned above??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 my engagement didnt result in too many deaths I assume there were no Genestealers involved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I assume there were no Genestealers involved. A few on the brides to be's side of the family ^_^ , GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Good lord, I walk away for a few hours, and a huge thread pops up. As far as galaxy maps go, size doesn't matter much. The Imperium appears to have "borders" on the map, but most of the planets within those borders are uninhabited, unexplored, controlled by aliens, etc. I wouldn't take sizes too seriously. The known fact that Ultramar contains at most eight or so systems clearly classifies it as a sub-sector. Also, there's a sector map in the original Tyranids Codex, of which Ultramar is merely a part. As far as fleets go, here's my take on it. The Ultramarines and their Chapter serfs control enough ships to patrol Ultramar, and also help to protect regions nearby. I don't know where the sector naval base is for the section that Ultramar is in; I've never seen it stated anywhere. Is assume that the sector Battlefleet was sufficiently depleted by the early battles against the Tyranids that Battlefleet Bakka had to be called in from the Segmentum Tempestus. The Navy is said to stay out of Ultramar as a matter of policy, leaving the Ultramarines to handle it. The only tithes required of a Space Marine world is that some of their geneseed has to be sent to the Adeptus Mechanicus for testing (to ensure purity) and as stock for the creation of new Chapters. The people of Ultramar voluntarily send regiments to the Imperial Guard, because they are prosperous enough to do so, and see it as their civic duty or something. The ship in Dead Sky Black Sun was certainly an Imperial Navy vessel; Guard Regiments never have their own ships. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 The Segmentum Ultima fleet is based on Kar Duniash I believe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Based on the oldest detailed Navy fluff I can find (from around the release of Space Fleet) each Segmentum has a Warfleet, and each sector has a Battlefleet. So the Ultima Segmentum is defended by Warfleet Ultima (out of Kar Duniash, as you stated). However, Kar Duniash probably isn't in the same sector as Ultramar (it's farther north, if I recall correctly). The sector map in Codex Tyranids doesn't name the sector naval base, unfortunately, and I've never seen the sector's name (it's just designated by its number). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1851875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Good lord, I walk away for a few hours, and a huge thread pops up. My sentiments exactly @_@ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1852581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Was thinking, wasn't it the Battle Fleet Tempestus from Bakka fought it the 1st Tyrannic war? Bakka is closer to Ultramar, but in separate Segmentums. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1852655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Wait...what? Ultramar isn't close to ANY other Segmentum...it's at the far end of Ultima from everything else... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1852668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Think it is still closer to one Battle fleet base than the other. Wrong choice of words I guess. Although checking the maps, Bakka appears the further away but only slightly. Which tells me that teh Ultima Battlefleet is too busy over a wider area to assist such large scale engagements, while Tempestus, being furthest from the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror etc has more resources to lend out. Given the nature of Warp Travel, a further point could well be quicker to reach than closer destinations. Will have to dig out the 3rd edition Rule book as there was a star map with rough travel timescales in it that talked of what I just mentioned here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1852734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 It was a plausible distance, if I recall correctly. They had over a month's notice before the Battle for Macragge. Bakka isn't much of a hot spot, as sectors go. Mostly pirates and such; hardly any big alien fleets or black crusades or the like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1852881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 one might have to account the galactic elevation as well. Maybe Bakka is on the same side of the galactic plane as Macragge, whereas Kar Duniash is on the opposite... Might have accounted for something as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1855273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well the galaxy IS 1000 LY thick, so it's likely there are numerous Sectors "stacked" in space relative to our "cardinal direction" galactic view..... Hadn't really considered that. Throne there must be a lot of sectors.... Calculatin the volume of the galaxy as a cylinder (which is flawed in a LOT of ways) and dividing it up by the volume of a sector....... Milky Way = 7,853,981,640,000 cubic LYs Sector = 8,000,000 cubic LYs So: 981,747.705 Sectors worth of space in the galaxy (if it was a full cylinder rather than a spiral). What % of the galaxy do we figure the Imperium occupies? I'd say 80%. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1855357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 What % of the galaxy do we figure the Imperium occupies? I'd say 80%. Not sure, but I think it is far, far less than that. Something like 10% seems to be ringing a bell with me. I could be wrong mind (it happens from time to time!) Man, I never considered the fact the galaxy is 3D! It's bigger than I thought! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1855657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 *g* indeed it is. But yeah, while the Charts make it look as if the imperium would cover 80% of the Milky Way, the fact ramains that inhabitable planets and controlled regions are little spots in the vastness of the Galaxy. I think the amount of Space really controlled by the Imperium would be along the lines of Cpt. Idahos 10% estimate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1855780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Probably more like 60-70%. Have to bare in mind that the out skirts were not full accounted for when the plug was pulled on the Great Crusade Party by Horus. And some of it is now contested or taken by Xeno. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158068-ultramarines-and-their-realm/page/2/#findComment-1855789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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