Sicarius's Ability

[Lord_Caldera]

Just wanted to clear something up. The codex says that Sicarius gives one of four abilities to one Tactical Squad. If I were to give Infiltrate or Scout to my Tac Marines am I allowed to combat-squad them and therefore have two Infiltrating/Scouting/Outflanking units? Also, if I were to do this could I have one combat squad Infil/Scout and the other Outflank in their Rhino?

[Souchan]

From how I understand combat squadding, it is done at deployment, so both squads would have to do the same. From how his ability reads, I am pretty sure both squads would get the ability as well, as it is still one Tactical squad before deployment when the ability is given to the unit.

[Lord_Caldera]

Great, thanks.

[Isiah]

From how I understand combat squadding, it is done at deployment, so both squads would have to do the same. From how his ability reads, I am pretty sure both squads would get the ability as well, as it is still one Tactical squad before deployment when the ability is given to the unit.

 

Interesting.

 

The issue there is that once combat-squadded each half is "treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point." (p51) – effectively another tac squad. Now as only one tac squad can take a special rule, then as each combat squad half is a now separate tac squad, then only one of them can take it.

 

That's my take.

[nighthawks]

generally I would agree with Isiah in that combat squad = unit. period.

 

BUT- the rule states "tactical squad" not unit, and a tactical squad is 5-10 marines that MAY combat squad if numbering 10. they may also cary seom special and heavy weapons, and the sgt can be specially equipped as well.

 

these characteristics do not go away when the tactical squad splits into combat squads - why would the special rule bestowed upon their unit and their unit alone be lost?

 

I'm with having ONE ability that the purchased unit ("tactical squad") is trained in and that survives the split so both combat squads have that ability, no matter how they are depoloyed.

[Isiah]

Yes Nighthawks I was pondering that too ;). But I came down on the other side of the fence :P.

 

If a combat-squadded tac squad is another "unit" then that unit is another tac squad surely? Hence becoming two point-scoring tac squads rather than one (or two bike squads etc etc) in all areas of the game a separate, individual tac squad (only smaller).

 

The crux comes down to whether you think a combat-squadded tac squad is another tac squad or not. The Combat squad rule would indicate (to me) that it is.

 

Cheers

I

[WarpSpawn]

On the other hand, what actually constitutes a tactical squad? I would say it is the army list entry called "tactical squad", which can be broken down into combat squads. I cannot see any reason to believe the combat squad forms a whole new tactical squad on their own, even though I cannot dispute the point about them being a seperate unit.

 

Tactical squad is a unit

 

A unit is not necessarilly a tactical squad.

 

I with Nighthawks on this one, though the argument about whether or not you can combat squad them, then deploy half as infiltrators or scouts, and the other half outflanking in a dedicated transport (which I have not figured out myself to be honest).

[Oldenhaller]

Tactical squad is a unit

 

A unit is not necessarilly a tactical squad.

 

Under the Combat squad rules it states that a ten man squad is broken into 2 five man squads called combat squads. It then goes on to refer to combat squads throughout the rulesset. These are thus two separate entities which are not called tactical squads any more - thus no breaking of the rule that it can only be given to one tactical squad. However...as neither of them are now called 'tactical squad' do they get to keep it?

 

[/pedant mode] ;)

 

~O

[WarpSpawn]

Yep, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

 

In terms of whether they get to keep it, as long as they are given it before they split (which I believe is the case) I do nto see why they should not. The special rule is, by implication, included in the profile of each model from that point on. I am unaware of any other case where a model loses a special rule, at least without an explicit rule to that effect (ICs joining units for example). They certainly do not lose any other special rules, equipment or anything else when they split.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's like the Shrike question.

 

The Tac Squad in question must have the special rule prior to deployment, and the Choice to combat Squad is made at deployment.

[WarpSpawn]

I think there is a subtle but important difference to the Shrike case. His rule requires that he join the unit in question, which presumably means the choice is made during deployment, either when he is deployed himself or when placed in reserve. Either way, he cannot be a member of 2 combat squads at the same time, meaning presumably that only one combat squad can benefit.

 

Correct me if I am wrong though. I am working from memory on this one.

[Oldenhaller]

he is placed within 2" of another member of the squad, the squad has to deploy at the same time, the squad gains infiltrate, then splits, as it's split and has to hit thee table at the same time both units have to have infiltrate.

 

The difference with shrike is that it says any unit he joins rather than specifying by unit type. As a "tactical squad" unit becomes a "combat squad" unit it is therefore a different unit type and thus cannot have the special rule...which is obviously preposterous but thats how it reads

 

~O

[WarpSpawn]

I would have to disagree with that assessment.

 

First of all, in the case of Shrike, there is nothing to suggest that you can perform such a sequence of events where he is placed with a squad, only for that squad to be split up later in the deployment. The rules for deployment are not very detailed, I'll grant you that, and there are numerous ommissions that need to be filed in through common sense. That said, I still honestly cannot see how you could reach such a conclusion.

 

Secondly, in the case of Sicarius, there is the point I mentioned before that, in designating a tactical squad for one of the USRs, the rule is effectively written into their profile. Also, whilst a "combat squad" may be mentioned in numerous places as a unit, I do not believe you can view it as a distinct unit type in it's own right. After all, a terminator combat squad != tactical combat squad. I think is reasonably clear that a "combat squad" describes a unit that is an independent component of the original whole, not a completely new type of unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't think it matters.

 

You have to have the special ability prior to deployment, as the ability effects how you deploy.

 

Combat Squadding occurs at (or after) deployment, so even if they lose infiltrate after they have deployed, they deployed *as* infiltrators already, and you can't change that.

 

Game Set Up

 

Sicarus gives a Unit Infiltrate.

Normal units deploy on each side.

Sicarus' infiltrating unit deploys. At this point it Combat Squads.

 

Even if the unit then loses Infiltrate, it has already deployed as an infiltrator.

 

Edit: Substitute Sicarus for Shrike above for his question. :cry:

[WarpSpawn]

I do not believe you can simply substitute "Sicarius" for "Shrike" and get the same answer. Realistically, the decision to combat squad has to come before the decision to include an independent character. There is no clearly defined sequence of events for deployment but to add the character first effectively means you have an IC joined with 2 units simultaneously, or else he has to leave one of them (leaving units being an action that does not typically happen during deployment). I am also pretty sure Shrike's rule does not allow him to join a unit to grant them the USR, then leave them later in the deployment phase, whilst allowing them to retain the USR. That would take some pretty creative reading to accomplish.

 

Sicarius on the other hand, he grants the USR to a squad of a given type, with no further limitations, conditions or duration of effect.

[Master Incarias]

What Sicarius does, is in essence to give a single Tactical Squad (see p.134 of the C:SM) the option to take a special rule as an upgrade. Whether this option is used should be noted on your army list just as what weapons the unit has.

 

If you split a Tactical Squad into Combat Squads, does it lose the option of taking a special or heavy weapon? It no longer numbers ten models...

 

To me, the principle is the same. It's an upgrade, bought for a Tactical Squad (which is an entry consisting of between five and ten models, and has the ability to deploy as two separate units if it numbers ten). If you could give an upgrade to an Imperial Guard Platoon, would it then apply to the entire Platoon? Not the same, but close...

 

Now, as for Shrike, his rules state 'squad', a term that lacks a clear definition in the Codex (unlike 'Tactical Squad', see above). I, personally, take this to mean unit, and in the case of Combat Squads, the two Squads deploy as separate units (see p. 51, and the option to deploy in different places, something one unit clearly can't do). If they deploy separately, Shrike obviously cannot join both, and hence cannot confer his ability to both.

 

Let's not even get into the possible definitions of 'his squad'...

[Reglor]

Realistically, the decision to combat squad has to come before the decision to include an independent character. There is no clearly defined sequence of events for deployment but to add the character first effectively means you have an IC joined with 2 units simultaneously, or else he has to leave one of them (leaving units being an action that does not typically happen during deployment).

 

Not according to the rule book. C:SM pg 51 "The Decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed." Unless you attach the IC after the unit has deployed, then you have to attach him before you choose to split the unit because you don't have to make that decision until the moment you deploy them.

[WarpSpawn]

The only place this logic is going to lead us is to the conclusion you cannot combat squad them at all, whilst using Shrike's rule.

 

If we interpret the combat squad rules as saying that the whole squad has to be deployed together, with no ability to hold any of them back to deploy later (or even put one combat squad in reserves), this is just going to cause headaches if you try and use any alternative deployment type for only one squad.

 

That said, I stand by my comments above. There is nothing to suggest Shrike can join a squad, then effectively leave it (all during the deployment phase), whilst still allowing them to benefit from his rule. If Shrike is unable to join them and stay with them during deployment, I would say they do not benefit. He clearly cannot join with two units simultaneously.

 

So, whilst I prefer a slightly more liberal interpretation of combat squads, if you cannot figure out a way to do it that satisfies all aspects of RAW, you are perhaps better off not even trying.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't want to derail this thread about Shrike, there already was a thread about him.

 

If you accept that Shrikes ability actually works (that he can be attached to a squad prior to the start of the game, and if you can't that special ability of his is worthless) then Combat Squadding does nothing.

 

The Whole unit can infiltrate. This is decided before any of your units deploys. After all normal deployment, you then have an Infiltrating Squad (either with Shrike, or because of Sicarius). As you place them on the table, using thier Infiltrate rule (you have to be using the Rule to now deploy them, as normal deployment is over) they can then decide to split.

 

Even if one Combat Squad is now more than 2" away from Shrike, it shouldn't matter. You've used Shrikes infiltrate already, and come the movement turn, the only time Shrike can disengage (by moving to end more than 2" away), you've already deployed as an infiltrator.

 

Nothing is broken rule wise by infiltrating two combat Squads. All RAW is satisfied.

 

1: Shrike starts joined to a sqaud/Sicarus gives the Infiltrate USR to a Suqad.

2: After normal Deployment, you deploy your infiltrating Squads.

3: An Infiltrating Squad, at deployment splits into Combat Squads.

(Shrike only)

4: At the end of the first movement phase, Shrike leaves any Squad he's not within 2" of.

 

Where is any RAW broken by this?

[WarpSpawn]

"Shrike (and models in his squad)"

 

Now you might have some alternative, creative interpretation to this but I see it as the squad he is joined to. How is the other combat squad a squad he is joined to?

 

Now, considering there is no way whatsoever you can say he is joined to that other combat squad, where does it say in his rules (or anyone elses) that he simply has to join them, then become seperated from them, whilst still allowing tem to infiltrate? It's his squad at that time, not any squads he might have been joined to in the past.

 

His rule says "squad", yet does not specify a type of squad, but note that it says "squad" in the singular. No mention of "squads". He can only effect a single squad. Period. You combat squad them and try to retain the effect, you are in breach of RAW as you are trying to effect multiple "squads".

 

But you are right, this thread does not really need derailing further with discussions of Shrike.

[Gentlemanloser]

He has joined a single squad initially, as he can't leave it until the end of the first movement phase, by ending the move over 2" away.

 

So until the end of the first movement phase, he's attached to the squad he joined until then, irregardless of whether it breaks into CS or not. Now if you want to use the "Decide which mini's form which combat squad" part of the Combat squad rules to say Shrike is only in one CS and not the other to claim he's left one of the CS, cool, but then the IC rules still say he doesn't leave until the end of the Movement Phase.

 

But how does that stop them having already used his infiltrate to deploy? Where's the broken RAW?

[WarpSpawn]

As I already admitted, the deployment rules are not very details, however I do not see how you can come to the conclusion that you can perform such complex maneuvers all during the deployment phase.

 

Once tha game is underway, he can only deliberately leave them in the movement phase, this is true, but nothing anywhere tells you how this applies to deployment. It arguably should not need to as the act of deployment is generally simply placing the model on the table (or else noting which vehicle they are in). During this phase you have to decide which unit the character is joined to. There is nothing to suggest this choice is binding, even if you then make a change to the deployment of that unit that invalidates this choice. By the end of the deployment phase, you must have decided which unit he is in but there is no clear sequence of events defined during that phase to be able to do what you suggest.

 

There is nothing in the deployment rules to suggest units can participate in any more complex actions than this. The combat squad rules simply tell you that you can choose to place them on the table as one unit or two. To read anything else into it is creative reading at the very least. Also, the choice is made when the unit is deployed. Once you have placed them on the table with an IC, they have been deployed. You are then trying to combat squad the after they have been deployed, not when they are deployed.

 

Finally, you are still unable to explain how he can effect "squads" (plural), as opposed to the "squad" (singular) that his rules give permission to effect.

 

Sicarius' ability works because he grants it to a specific type of squad, before deployment even takes place. The choice to combat squad does not take away the fact that they were chosen as a "tactical squad". Shrike is more specific and only effects the squad (singular) he is joined (present tense) to, not a squad of a specific type and most certainly not a squad he has been historically joined to.

 

So, RAW breaches?

 

1) Whilst not a breach as such, you are writing quite a bit of extra text into the rather spartan deployment rules.

 

2) You are deploying the squad, then choosing to combat squad them after deployment, which is not what the combat squad rules say you can do.

 

3) You are twisting the rules to effect multiple squads, as opposed to the single squad you are permitted to effect.

[Lord Marius]

Just to clarify the answer to the original post (I read through the topic and found myself slightly lost.)

 

1. Sicarius upgrades a unit with his ability.

2. The unit (or squad or Tactical Squad) that is given the ability has it noted in their entry on your armylist.

3. At deployment, you choose to combat squad or not.

 

So, if it's on your armylist, all ten guys get the upgrade well before deployment, regardless of future plans to split them.

 

Hope that's helpful ^_^

[Gentlemanloser]

1) Whilst not a breach as such, you are writing quite a bit of extra text into the rather spartan deployment rules.

 

What extra stuff? I'm typing more to explain the situation, but I'm not adding any none existant rules.

 

2) You are deploying the squad, then choosing to combat squad them after deployment, which is not what the combat squad rules say you can do.

 

At. It's really the same. You're placing them on the table, wherever, using the infiltrate rules. After all normal deployment has been made.

 

3) You are twisting the rules to effect multiple squads, as opposed to the single squad you are permitted to effect.

 

Twisting?

 

Infiltrate is applied before deployment. It has to. CS is made at deployment, which must come after the apllication of Infiltrate.

 

While it might not be your interpretation of the rules, I'm not twisting anything.

 

And as you say, everything here still satisfies RAW. Regardless of how we might think it does/should work.

 

Sicarius' ability works because he grants it to a specific type of squad, before deployment even takes place. The choice to combat squad does not take away the fact that they were chosen as a "tactical squad". Shrike is more specific and only effects the squad (singular) he is joined (present tense) to, not a squad of a specific type and most certainly not a squad he has been historically joined to.

 

It's the same...

 

Shrike joins a Tac Squad prior to deployment. Sicarius Gives a Tac Squad Infiltrate, prior to deployment.

After normal Deployment, the Infiltrating Tac Squad deploys (with Shrike). After normal Deployment, the Infiltrating Tac Squad deploys (with or without Sicarius).

The Infiltrating Tac Squad Splits into a CS and under CS rules you choose which minis are placed in which group (Including Shrike). The Infiltrating Tac Squad Splits into a CS and under CS rules you choose which minis are placed in which group (Includuing Sicarius if he's attached to them).

 

All by RAW. The exact same process.